Tipping Comp Weekly Winner Rd 15

[globaleagle]

^ Just enjoy your double pass!

 

[globaleagle]

But I'm not equal 11th. That would mean there is only 10 ahead of me. But there's 28 ahead of me, so I'm 29th. If Souths, Roosters and Storm were all on 24 points and Manly were on 20 points, Manly would still be 4th, not equal second.

^ Just enjoy your double pass!


😛🙂

 

[bones]

Woo hoo. I'm 24th!!!😉 Up two from last week. 😀 I'm a climbing folks.

Hate to be a party popper Niccipops, but there are 69 tipsters ahead of you. That puts you in 70th position. 😛
It says I'm 11th but I'm actually 29th.

Not true, 11th is 11th, but more like equal 11th. So it's more to do with your spot than how many people sit ahead, scoring a few extra points each round will move you closer to first.

We also record the time you enter your tips, the first person to enter tips in a weekly winner situation wins in a tie-break situation

But I'm not equal 11th. That would mean there is only 10 ahead of me. But there's 28 ahead of me, so I'm 29th. If Souths, ,roosters and Storm were all on 24 points and Manly were on 20 points, Manly would still be 4th, not equal second.

You are equal 11th, there are only 10 higher scores than you on the leaderboard, making you equal 11th, your position is calculated off of your score, not your name or any other factor.

There may be 28 people ahead of you, however score-wise there are only 10 points between you and 1st position, meaning you are in 11th spot.

You are on 154 points, and 1st is on 174, there are 4 people in 10th on 156, 6 people on 158 in 9th position and so on.

So yes you are in 11th position, no technicalities, nothing, just 11th.

If Souths, Storm and Roosters were all on 24 points and all had the same point differencial then Manly would be classed as second, until the point differencial changed. They have mitigating factors such as that. The tipping comp doesn't apart from the weekly winner.

So yes again you are still in 11th, no if's but's or maybes

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It shouldn't matter whether people above me are tied or not, my position should be gauged by how many people are above me.

 

[Dan]

Hate to be a party popper Niccipops, but there are 69 tipsters ahead of you. That puts you in 70th position. 😛
It says I'm 11th but I'm actually 29th.

Not true, 11th is 11th, but more like equal 11th. So it's more to do with your spot than how many people sit ahead, scoring a few extra points each round will move you closer to first.

We also record the time you enter your tips, the first person to enter tips in a weekly winner situation wins in a tie-break situation

But I'm not equal 11th. That would mean there is only 10 ahead of me. But there's 28 ahead of me, so I'm 29th. If Souths, ,roosters and Storm were all on 24 points and Manly were on 20 points, Manly would still be 4th, not equal second.

You are equal 11th, there are only 10 higher scores than you on the leaderboard, making you equal 11th, your position is calculated off of your score, not your name or any other factor.

There may be 28 people ahead of you, however score-wise there are only 10 points between you and 1st position, meaning you are in 11th spot.

You are on 154 points, and 1st is on 174, there are 4 people in 10th on 156, 6 people on 158 in 9th position and so on.

So yes you are in 11th position, no technicalities, nothing, just 11th.

If Souths, Storm and Roosters were all on 24 points and all had the same point differencial then Manly would be classed as second, until the point differencial changed. They have mitigating factors such as that. The tipping comp doesn't apart from the weekly winner.

So yes again you are still in 11th, no if's but's or maybes

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It shouldn't matter whether people above me are tied or not, my position should be gauged by how many people are above me.

Ok so what if there is someone called

AAAAAAArdvark

They will be above you if they are on the same points simply because they had the foresight to keep the alphabet in mind.

 

[bones]

Not true, 11th is 11th, but more like equal 11th. So it's more to do with your spot than how many people sit ahead, scoring a few extra points each round will move you closer to first.

We also record the time you enter your tips, the first person to enter tips in a weekly winner situation wins in a tie-break situation

But I'm not equal 11th. That would mean there is only 10 ahead of me. But there's 28 ahead of me, so I'm 29th. If Souths, ,roosters and Storm were all on 24 points and Manly were on 20 points, Manly would still be 4th, not equal second.

You are equal 11th, there are only 10 higher scores than you on the leaderboard, making you equal 11th, your position is calculated off of your score, not your name or any other factor.

There may be 28 people ahead of you, however score-wise there are only 10 points between you and 1st position, meaning you are in 11th spot.

You are on 154 points, and 1st is on 174, there are 4 people in 10th on 156, 6 people on 158 in 9th position and so on.

So yes you are in 11th position, no technicalities, nothing, just 11th.

If Souths, Storm and Roosters were all on 24 points and all had the same point differencial then Manly would be classed as second, until the point differencial changed. They have mitigating factors such as that. The tipping comp doesn't apart from the weekly winner.

So yes again you are still in 11th, no if's but's or maybes

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It shouldn't matter whether people above me are tied or not, my position should be gauged by how many people are above me.

Ok so what if there is someone called

AAAAAAArdvark

They will be above you if they are on the same points simply because they had the foresight to keep the alphabet in mind.

Lol , that's not even the same argument. I'm only equal 11th if there are 10 people above me and I'm equal with someone else. If there are 100 people above me all tied for 1st and I'm on two points behind them all, then I'm 101st, not second.

 

[Dan]

But I'm not equal 11th. That would mean there is only 10 ahead of me. But there's 28 ahead of me, so I'm 29th. If Souths, ,roosters and Storm were all on 24 points and Manly were on 20 points, Manly would still be 4th, not equal second.

You are equal 11th, there are only 10 higher scores than you on the leaderboard, making you equal 11th, your position is calculated off of your score, not your name or any other factor.

There may be 28 people ahead of you, however score-wise there are only 10 points between you and 1st position, meaning you are in 11th spot.

You are on 154 points, and 1st is on 174, there are 4 people in 10th on 156, 6 people on 158 in 9th position and so on.

So yes you are in 11th position, no technicalities, nothing, just 11th.

If Souths, Storm and Roosters were all on 24 points and all had the same point differencial then Manly would be classed as second, until the point differencial changed. They have mitigating factors such as that. The tipping comp doesn't apart from the weekly winner.

So yes again you are still in 11th, no if's but's or maybes

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It shouldn't matter whether people above me are tied or not, my position should be gauged by how many people are above me.

Ok so what if there is someone called

AAAAAAArdvark

They will be above you if they are on the same points simply because they had the foresight to keep the alphabet in mind.

Lol , that's not even the same argument. I'm only equal 11th if there are 10 people above me and I'm equal with someone else. If there are 100 people above me all tied for 1st and I'm on two points behind them all, then I'm 101st, not second.

it absolutely is the same argument because someone with an alphabetical name ahead of yours will usually be ahead of you.

The order currently works as follows

order by points desc, username asc

So that means on our leaderboard someone with the name Abones would beat you simply because they had an alphabetical name.

There are always "tie-break" situations built into any ladder.

In league it is "points, F/A, Points For, Points Against" i believe, and by factoring in all of those things, you will then get a clear result as it would be very very very rare to get two teams to have all those the same.

In the tipping comp, we don't have that luxury, so therefore we can only separate you by points (We don't factor margin into the leaderboard) therefore, if you are in 11th, you are in 11th position no matter how many people are ahead of you

 

[bones]

Do you think Manly would be second on the ladder if Souths, the Roosters and Storm were all tied on 24 points?


I'm 29th on the ladder because there are 28 tipsters above me who are all on higher points than me. They're not on equal points as me.

 

[Dan]

Do you think Manly would be second on the ladder if Souths, the Roosters and Storm were all tied on 24 points?

That depends. If they were all on 24 points AND they all had identical for/Against differencial, identical for, identical against then yes

However if they do not have that then no.

As mentioned in great detail above, the NRL ladder has differentials to help separate teams, you are rewarded for good attack and defense. In the tipping comp example, there is no real way to do this, so we separate you by one factor only POINTS. So if you have 154 and someone else has 154 you are in the same position as them and one position below anyone on 156

you are missing and ignoring the very finite point here or methods of separation which are used in the NRL, whilst I don't recall anyone ever having the exact same score, f/a d, f and a it is calculated into their system and would absolutely record as such as "equal position" if all those criteria match.

We do no have those criteria to match from and from a standpoint of me being the person who wrote the competition and in line with the final point on the Rules and Regs section of http://www.silvertails.net/forum/tipping-competition/Jan-Davis-Memorial-Tipping-Competition-2013/8/sign_up.html
The fact is if you are listed as 11th you are 11th, trust me, in no technical sense are you anything other than 11th, If for some reason everyone above you didn't score a point next week and you scored 22, what position would you be in?

Trust me, I wrote the code and know it intimately what I say is true and 100% fact, the way our leaderboard works is based purely on points.

For a more technical explanation the query that gathers this is

"select a.user_id, b.username, sum(a.points) as points, c.paid, a.time_entered
		from ".TABLE_PREFIX."mytipper_tips a
		inner join ".TABLE_PREFIX."users b on a.user_id = b.uid
		Inner join ".TABLE_PREFIX."mytipper_users c on b.uid = c.uid
		where c.compID=".intval($comp)." and a.compID=".intval($comp)."
		group by a.user_id order by points desc, username asc"

(We gather the time_entered only for the case where margins are included in leaderboard)
It loops through the result set, then checks the points of your record, vs the last record pulled, if you are on the same points it gives you the same position

if($points==$result["points"])	{
	$position--;
}

Due to this factor, you are absolutely without a doubt in 11th and no other possible position

 

[bones]

We are arguing two entirely different points.
The method of separation is used to separate teams on EQUAL points. Not the teams that may be 2, 4 or 6 points behind them. I totally get that alphabetical order separates tipsters who are tied. That's not what I am arguing here. If three tipsters are tied at the top of the ladder, then whatever method of separation is applied will separate those three tipsters. However, the next tipster on the ladder (on LESS competition points) is not second, but 4th.

 

[Dan]

We are arguing two entirely different points.
The method of separation is used to separate teams on EQUAL points. Not the teams that may be 2, 4 or 6 points behind them. I totally get that alphabetical order separates tipsters who are tied. That's not what I am arguing here. If three tipsters are tied at the top of the ladder then then whatever method of separation is applied will separate those three tipsters. However, the next tipster on the ladder (on LESS competition points) is not second, but 4th.

No it is the same point.

If they are tied, and there is no method of separation as is the case in the tipping comp, then all those people are in 1st and the next person is in second.

There is NO method of separation beyond points, therefore I am correct, those users are in 1st, the only way to leapfrog that position is to get higher points, if you have the same points because there is No other method to separate them then you are in the same position as them.

In the event at the end of the year that we have 2 people in first, then we have tie-break methods to be applied only then, which is the margin.

What you are saying may be applicable for League (but you will find it is not, if all separation factors are the same, then they end up as same ladder position, it just would be extremely rare for that situation to arise...deliberately)
However it does not apply to the tipping comp

 

[globaleagle]

Muscle weighs less than fat!



(Dan, gimme Bones' points).



But I am enjoying the discussion!

edit: sorry for interrupting.

 

[bones]

Muscle weighs less than fat!



(Dan, gimme Bones' points).



But I am enjoying the discussion!

edit: sorry for interrupting.

GE.....Stop interupting while I'm trying to argue my position from 11th down to 29th hahaha.

 

[lsz]

All good for me...although i am not sure a 2 / 4 deserves a "well done, Dan"...

 

[Dan]

All good for me...although i am not sure a 2 / 4 deserves a "well done, Dan"...

You read it wrong, it should say

"Well done Dan"

 

[Chip and Chase]

Bloody hell you have to be an Ironstine to work out this ranking system.

 

[Dan]

Bloody hell you have to be an Ironstine to work out this ranking system.

Apparently so.....

Anyway C&C read your PM. I have 2 more minor changes to the tipping comp to do before I mark it as completed. Let me know if you want that other change (it's a fairly simple change)

 

[Berkeley_Eagle]

butting in here lol
NRL.com ladder
notice placings and on tied scores

 

[Dan]

So they went slightly different in their tipping ladder, in that if they are exactly the same, they cut out some numbers. i.e. 18, 40 etc. Which I think is dumb, because those positions still exist, they don't disappear.

Now with all of that said I have added the user settings to the comp so you can turn on and off the 3 different PM's the system sends out.

Still one quirk to work out then I am done

 

[bones]

So they went slightly different in their tipping ladder, in that if they are exactly the same, they cut out some numbers. i.e. 18, 40 etc. Which I think is dumb, because those positions still exist, they don't disappear.

Lol they haven't disappeared. They are tied. Two people still take up two positions. They could have had the two tipsters tied in 17th position listed as 17th and 18th (using whichever separation method they want) but the next person should be 19th. If there are 70 tipsters in a comp they should be listed from 1st through to 70th after separation methods have been applied to separate tied positions only.

 

[Dan]

I completely disagree with that.

if I have 10 points and 10 total margin and you have 10 points and 10 total margin and we are both in 1st, the next person should still be in 2nd, they are in 2nd whereas the other two are tied for 1st.

annnyyywaayy settings quirk now fixed