Time for the New Age of Manly

[manlywarringah]

Toovey, Warwick & Perry are assembling a squad that we all hope will come to represent "The new age of Manly".

That squad didn't include Gifty. Up until recently it did include Watmough but when his offer was withdrawn, they've probably changed their mind. At the moment, I believe it does include Brett but that might change if he follows the same path as Watmough.

For a long time, the senior playing group had a lot of influence, as is common at most clubs. However, at the end of the day… it's management that have the final say.

I think the club has decided to build the club around DCE. I was looking for the infamous Dunamis Lui Perfect Partners clip last night and came across Jamie Buhrer on Perfect partners. He talked about how close he is to both DCE and Tom Symonds. Buhrer and Symonds recently re-signed.

Dunamis Lui is often photographed with many of the other polynesian guys, Hiku (recently re-signed), Tafaua, Chee Kam, Horo and Sene Lafao (recently re-signed). Add to that some of the senior guys like, Ballin, Lyon and Matai. Then the younger guys coming thru like Gutherson and the Trbojevic brothers, the squad is taking shape.

Kite, King and G. Stewart are gone. Watmough is probably gone as well and possibly Brett to. That really only leaves Matai, Lyon and Foran from the senior guys. Lyon seems happy, Matai might be staying (media reports state) and Foran is probably 50/50.

The writing has been on the wall for a while now. The future is bright but transition periods are often messy.

One of the best posts i've read for awhile, certainly better than Ryan's!

I feel the same as you. One thing we COULD NOT HAVE, is all the senior guys retiring together over a 2 year period. No doubt that's what Watmough, Glen, Brett, Matai, wanted with the likes of Ballin and Lyon also retiring during their time.

The club would be negligent in not planning for a transition while the older guys end their careers.

While we would've liked them all to end their careers with us, it really was never possible if we wanted to stay strong when their time came to retire.

Anyone remember the Australian Cricket Team when Greg Chappel, Rod Marsh and Dennis Lillee all retired together? Great way for them to go out that way but we were in the doldrums for years trying to recover.

What is ironic is that i think the club were thinking they could keep either Watmough or Glen and they chose Watmough. If they had've known he was going, they may have decided to keep Glen after all.

We need to keep the young guys signed up and introduce them into a winning culture. Most of the guys that will stay have that winning culture. Some will go and that's footy. Can't keep everyone with today's salary cap.

I believe in what we are doing and i also believe the players are behind Toovey. Maybe Brett might be peeved (which i can understand) but he and Watmough are probably the ones that have issues with him. Foran states he sorted his.

I hope we use some of the money saved from Watmough's contract and throw it at Brett and Matai. Brett deserves more for being our most important player for a very long time. If it keeps him here and happy, then throw an extra $100,000 his way. Matai deserves more as well.

Brett would be the most damaging exit in my books. I love Gutherson but he needs another year or so to hit his straps.

Either way, we have a lot of young guns that need time in firsts and will hopefully get some game time this year with most of our senior guys on deck to show them how it's done.

One thing of note in your post, you mentioned who's close to who and i remember a Tommy Talks interview with Dunamis Lui who is very close to Josh Starling. Seems there's a lot of guys who are great friends in our side, you just never hear about it from the media.

It's rocky times at the moment but I'm with you Tooves!

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

A good point @manlywarringah

I have no doubt that Toovey/Warwick/Gigg & Perry know exactly what they want and need for us to be successful in the years to come. Tooves , Warwick & Gigg have the football credentials , and Dave Perry is an excellent money man.

I also imagine that some of the older players, who in their day only had Ha$ler to deal with, would be finding this a little strange and "might" view this as the board not wanting them or trying to screw them.

Whereas the truth of the matter is the retention committee is just playing "hard ball" and being very smart in doing so.

 

[Peter C]

What is ironic is that i think the club were thinking they could keep either Watmough or Glen and they chose Watmough. If they had've known he was going, they may have decided to keep Glen after all.



.

I hope we use some of the money saved from Watmough's contract and throw it at Brett and Matai. Brett deserves more for being our most important player for a very long time. If it keeps him here and happy, then throw an extra $100,000 his way. Matai deserves more as well.

It was never a case of choosing between Glen Stewart and Watmaugh, as Watmaugh still has a contract for next year, should he decide to stay, whereas Stewart was a free agent.
The club would be foolish to match offers made by other clubs to either Brett Stewart or Matai, as the offers they will get will be over the top to entice them away from Manly.

 

[niccipops]

Rant over!!

Who is Rant and why are some many posters over him?😀

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If our senior players want to be p*ssed off at a coach it should be directed at the one who back-ended their contracts and then walked out of them, not the one who was left to try and hold it all together.

With you all the way Mr Toovey

 

[sheridanstand78]

I have total faith in Toovey, in 2012 he was sold a pup by Hasler and he has managed to maintain the teams ability to win many games. Ok we lost in 2012 to the Storm and in 2014 to the Rorters and this year to the vermin and dogs, we lost to the champions in those seasons so there is no shame in that.

We failed this year because mentally we were not at our best and we had major injuries.

Souffs showed that if you are United you can achieve anything, that message never goes away when describing the premiers of any season. Its fair to say that this was missing from Manly from about round 22.

 

[Chubblo]

I don't know why some people have a massive chip on their shoulder about our "dismal" performance this year. We came equal first and only petered out in the last few rounds due to key injuries.

Any team would come unstuck after losing both their primary & secondary hooker in a single game. I can also think of at least 8 other teams and their fans who wish they were anywhere near as good as us.

I'm confident that even if there was a mass exodus of key players, we still have the mentality to come back from it and reach the finals once again.

 

[Ralphie]

Rant over!!

Who is Rant and why are some many posters over him?😀

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If our senior players want to be p*ssed off at a coach it should be directed at the one who back-ended their contracts and then walked out of them, not the one who was left to try and hold it all together.

With you all the way Mr Toovey

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I have been saying this all along. This problem has two dimensions to it. Firstly, the person who is responsible for all the backended deals is the one who created the Gifty problem in the first place. Secondly the Gifty problem became a major issue for the senior players because they had a very poor relationship with Management (Us & Them) which had been fermented for about a decade.

On both counts only one person was the architect and he is now sitting in another office counting his $$$$$$.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Its a good point @Ralphie the players having to deal with a "Retention Committee" for the first time ever are probably shaking their heads.

I think this explains somewhat why the players feel there's a "them and us" scenario, whereas in reality its just plain good business.

I am well aware (as have been told by Bob O'Reilly) that back in Ha$ler days he did everything, negotiations, contracts, who played and who didn't, really the lot, and in essence was the "kingmaker", if you were in you were in and if you were out well god help you because you were never getting in.

He also said to me when Dave Perry came on board, and discovered the shyte we were going to be in (Salary Cap), that he demanded from the board greater control of the finances.

And the rest is history.

I have said from the very moment the news came out with Gifty that, IMO they probably couldn't pay him what he wanted, and would have had to see others go, and potentially other young ones not pursued to see him stay and they probably conveyed that to his manager, who then probably conveyed that to him as "Manly are not making an offer".

That is an opinion only, garnered from all I have read .

 

[SeaEagle007]

Guys be thankful we had such a good run for the last 10 years, most teams would only ever dream of having our run.

I for one thought our rebuilding would of started after the 2011 GF, but here we are close to 2015 and its only starting now. Think about it , we got to enjoy it for another 3 years, Every team has to go through it. We might be avg for 2 years or so so what, we might not even make the 8 so what. what I do know is this club will always find a way back into the 8. From there its anyones to win. Out with the old in with the New

 

[The Wheel]

That approach did win us two premierships though Msrk.

Also Bob Reilly was on the board that allowed that to happen - where was the governance then? No point it the Bob Reillys of the world complaining and blaming Des - at the end of the day they sat on the board and should have provided the oversight/management to controlled the club's finances/ employees. If they didn't the board wasn't doing their job.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

That approach did win us two premierships though Msrk.

Also Bob Reilly was on the board that allowed that to happen - where was the governance then? No point it the Bob Reillys of the world complaining and blaming Des - at the end of the day they sat on the board and should have provided the oversight/management to controlled the club's finances/ employees. If they didn't the board wasn't doing their job.

Agree Wheelie, I wasn't praising nor criticising Bob O'Reilly in my comments just stating the differences between how negotiations were handled then and now!!

 

[Hamster Huey]

That approach did win us two premierships though Msrk.

Also Bob Reilly was on the board that allowed that to happen - where was the governance then? No point it the Bob Reillys of the world complaining and blaming Des - at the end of the day they sat on the board and should have provided the oversight/management to controlled the club's finances/ employees. If they didn't the board wasn't doing their job.

While the approached worked out of the dark, success-starved days and with a squad of young blokes at their prime, our situation has changed significantly.

If the reactions from some are any indication, Des staying would have either seen the core group remain at the expense of building a new generation, or in his want for perfection Des would have been tempted to systematically rort the cap to keep old and new generation.

Elements of the club could see what pressures Des' recruitment was creating on the Cap, with backend contract and deferred payments merely shifting the problem further back into the senior players career. But that couldn't be sustained and maintain success.

Losing a couple of senior players per year is the right way forward, and though it's a bit tough to see King, Gift and Choc gone at the same time, it could have been a hell of a lot worse down the track, if left influenced by the senior playing group.

 

[tookey]

Toovey's performance as coach will be defined on whether he can convince DCE and Foran to stay long term at manly.

If either one goes in the next year or two it will be a tragedy for Manly and Toovey must go

 

[Merdy33]

That approach did win us two premierships though Msrk.

Also Bob Reilly was on the board that allowed that to happen - where was the governance then? No point it the Bob Reillys of the world complaining and blaming Des - at the end of the day they sat on the board and should have provided the oversight/management to controlled the club's finances/ employees. If they didn't the board wasn't doing their job.

While the approached worked out of the dark, success-starved days and with a squad of young blokes at their prime, our situation has changed significantly.

If the reactions from some are any indication, Des staying would have either seen the core group remain at the expense of building a new generation, or in his want for perfection Des would have been tempted to systematically rort the cap to keep old and new generation.

Elements of the club could see what pressures Des' recruitment was creating on the Cap, with backend contract and deferred payments merely shifting the problem further back into the senior players career. But that couldn't be sustained and maintain success.

Losing a couple of senior players per year is the right way forward, and though it's a bit tough to see King, Gift and Choc gone at the same time, it could have been a hell of a lot worse down the track, if left influenced by the senior playing group.

I'm still yet to be convinced that Des' approach is not the way to go. To win a premiership these days, you need all the stars to align in terms of your playing roster. That is, multiple marquee players all on the field at the same time. In order to win multiple premierships in a short space of time, you need to keep those marquee players at your club by whatever legal means possible. To me, that means back ending.

Sure, you can cycle through your marquee players, shedding a couple each year and replacing them with younger stars of the future, or established journeymen. This will reduce the need for back-ending and will probably mean that you'll make the finals for consecutive years over a sustained period of time. But in my opinion, that approach MIGHT yield you one premiership every 10 years or so. It won't lead to the multiple grand final appearances and two premierships that we have enjoyed over the past 7 years.

So to me, its a choice between the period we have just been through followed by the period we are about to go through. Or sustained finals appearances with maybe a premiership, but no backending issues.

I'll take the former.

 

[Hamster Huey]

My point is that we (fans and players) need to accept that there actually isn't a right or wrong path to stay on. We have to accept that things change and the club will adjust their plans to suit; Des' worked well to get us up and sustain early success, but we now have to plan for a time when those players are at the back-end of their contract.

It simply isn't healthy to carry 'the former' further and be left with half a dozen marquee players aged in their 30s, until they decide to hang-up the boots, likely in rapid succession.

 

[SeaEagle21]

I think if both DCE & Foran left Manly then it would be a tragedy. If one leaves then that's just being realistic. Two players that have the potential to command almost 1/3 of your available cap for 25 players would be a challenge for any club let alone a club that has other highly valued players in it's squad. Toovey's performance as coach has nothing to do with it. No one gave us a chance last year against Souths and the team turned the game on it's head in the Second half. Same thing happened this year against the Bulldogs in the second half only losing to the lottery of Golden point with Manly clearly the better team momentum wise in the second half. They say coaches earn their money at Halftime and Toovey has proven that over the last couple of seasons. He has a great footballing brain and the passion for his club that NO OTHER club can boast.

He did get given a premiership team but this competition has proven that that doesn't translate into success. He also got lumped with a star team with a very messy salary situation and he is still trying (with the help of others) to get it back to something that the club can manage and move forward with remaining competitive.

Without the passion he has for our club any other coach would have already been shown the door. It's that passion that makes him put up with the BS and if the playing group is voicing it's frustration at least you know that he has the Boards (disfuntctional or not) backing. Have a look the the Tigers situation where the coach isn't backed.. If a team goes well it's the players that get the praise and if the team is going bad then the Coach gets blamed. I don't give a rats about what the players want, they are there to do one job...play footy as the coach wants. If you don't then go somewhere else.

Just to remind a lot of ppl that we finished equal first and were in the hunt for the finals... Surely it's Toovey's fault we did so so poorly. This only comes from supporters taking what our club does year in year out for granted. Go ask Raiders supporters what they think? I'd rather go back to the NE days as opposed to being in the hunt for the premiership year in year out right?

Sorry guys just venting some built up frustration that the mess that Des left behind has been all Toovey's doing that's all 🙂

 

[niccipops]

Toovey's performance as coach will be defined on whether he can convince DCE and Foran to stay long term at manly.

If either one goes in the next year or two it will be a tragedy for Manly and Toovey must go

Harsh call.
I don't understand how it can be Toovey's fault if DCE chases more dollars than Manly can realistically give him?
Not saying this is DCE but many players today are all about money and egos and a coach can't control this. He can only manage what he has to work with.

 

[MadMarcus]

Great post @SeaEagle21

 

[silvertail]

Just don't understand why any Manly fan would comment that we have to make a choice on which halve to keep.

It just fuels speculation and its not necessary. Both want to stay on a good deal and the club wants to retain both. Can't we just leave it at that?

 

[eagle40]

Toovey's performance as coach will be defined on whether he can convince DCE and Foran to stay long term at manly.

If either one goes in the next year or two it will be a tragedy for Manly and Toovey must go

Tookey, I'm normally on the same page as you but to suggest that Tooves should fall on his sword should one of the halves take an offer too good to refuse is ludicrous, Cherry is our next Captain, so he is not going anywhere & his partner is Northern Beaches born & bred.
Kieran on the other hand, his best mate is Mitchell Pearse, Moloney's contract is up in 2015, so the Rooters will go real hard. What Tooves has now is leftovers from Dessies reign.
It's a carcass.