The pride jersey round.

[Brookie Bob]

Not sure how this article provides balance to the debate. In the immortal words of Pauline Hanson "Please explain" @Brookie Bob

It was addressing the 'T' in LGBTQI+...........and demonstrating that some so-called advances on behalf of one group have had serious repercussions on another.

I recall being taught the Edward De Bono CAF philosophy at one point; CAF stands for 'consider all factors'.
It's hard to consider everybody in everything, but surely someone would have seen that having a changing room designated to be shared by naked women and a big 6 foot 4 naked person with a penis, who identifies as a woman, (and continues to date women), wouldn't cause problems.......words fail me.

That described situation was imposed on those female athletes - 'this is how it's going to be'. Some may see them as casualties in an ideological war (I'm sure you don't - but some may). I just see them as people too, entitled to the same respect as anyone one else. What was forced on them did not show respect.

 

[Eagles4Life]

It was addressing the 'T' in LGBTQI+...........and demonstrating that some so-called advances on behalf of one group have had serious repercussions on another.

I recall being taught the Edward De Bono CAF philosophy at one point; CAF stands for 'consider all factors'.
It's hard to consider everybody in everything, but surely someone would have seen that having a changing room designated to be shared by naked women and a big 6 foot 4 naked person with a penis, who identifies as a woman, (and continues to date women), wouldn't cause problems.......words fail me.

That described situation was imposed on those female athletes - 'this is how it's going to be'. Some may see them as casualties in an ideological war (I'm sure you don't - but some may). I just see them as people too, entitled to the same respect as anyone one else. What was forced on them did not show respect.

Fair enough @Brookie Bob I actually agree with you on all points, however, I still can't see how the post provides balance to a debate on the NRL launching an Inclusivity Round or Everyone in League Round in the future.

 

[Brookie Bob]

Fair enough @Brookie Bob I actually agree with you on all points, however, I still can't see how the post provides balance to a debate on the NRL launching an Inclusivity Round or Everyone in League Round in the future.

It was a balance to the debate on who, when, where and how things should be done as part of the general trend of positive affirmation for those identifying as LGBTQI+.

Quick summary: work with people, don't try and implement things without consultation, remember that there are emotive issues all around. Oh, and remembering that societal 'norms' don't change 108 degrees in a relatively short space of time, and there are many different - and legitimate - sides to complex issues.

The NRL is currently ducking and weaving on this - as are the clubs. The NRL are the ones who need to read the following - in conjunction with every sports-related politician in ANZ:

How Manly's jersey predicament taught sport an unintended lesson about inclusion

While their intentions were good, Manly's approach to celebrating inclusion focused more on optics than on changing culture, Samantha Lewis writes.

www.abc.net.au

Sporting bodies individually (NRL, AFL, Cricket, swimming bodies, whatever) may be an inappropriate starting point for all of this. Perhaps all sporting bodies need to be brought together with the government stakeholders to work through all the permutations, and present a united well thought-out front, that takes all stakeholders into account. Every time one of them looks for a PR spotlight (or high moral ground) on this, mistakes are made. Like the story of the female swimmers.

That's the balance that I was inferring.

 

[Eagles4Life]

It was a balance to the debate on who, when, where and how things should be done as part of the general trend of positive affirmation for those identifying as LGBTQI+.

Quick summary: work with people, don't try and implement things without consultation, remember that there are emotive issues all around. Oh, and remembering that societal 'norms' don't change 108 degrees in a relatively short space of time, and there are many different - and legitimate - sides to complex issues.

The NRL is currently ducking and weaving on this - as are the clubs. The NRL are the ones who need to read the following - in conjunction with every sports-related politician in ANZ:

How Manly's jersey predicament taught sport an unintended lesson about inclusion

While their intentions were good, Manly's approach to celebrating inclusion focused more on optics than on changing culture, Samantha Lewis writes.

www.abc.net.au

Sporting bodies individually (NRL, AFL, Cricket, swimming bodies, whatever) may be an inappropriate starting point for all of this. Perhaps all sporting bodies need to be brought together with the government stakeholders to work through all the permutations, and present a united well thought-out front, that takes all stakeholders into account. Every time one of them looks for a PR spotlight (or high moral ground) on this, mistakes are made. Like the story of the female swimmers.

That's the balance that I was inferring.

Agree absolutely. I said something very similar at the time. I will never understand why the club chose to do this unilaterally.

 

[cherry_poppins]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don’t understand seriously how or why anyone would want to align possible suicide on a footy player’s decision on whether they wear a footy jersey or not. To imply that kind of responsibility on to a footy player does not seem right to me.

These players lead by the world's smallest prop are for better or worse seen as role models, mostly worst and that goes for most football players, not just these knuckle dress

Let me break this down for you, Barney style

These players have fans, some of which may prefer the company of the same sex, LGBTQ people happen to have the highest suicide rates of any type of people, mostly due to non acceptance by family members and people in their social circle and unfortunately the public make these people outcasts, which is a common cause for this community's people to mentally snap and end it all

This isn't a grey area matter and the jersey was never a gay pride jersey, making the situation even dumber, at no point did the club mention LGBTQ, the media and others put these 2 things together

In this case you're either with these people to accept who they are, or you're against them, in this matter there's simply no middle ground and while I'll never consider joining this lifestyle, I'm not one to hate them for who they are, unless of course an individual is a massive douchebag

 

[40 nil]

LGBTQ people happen to have the highest suicide rates of any type of people

According to these stats, the highest rates of suicides are among indigenous people and rural dwellers. LGBTIQ+ have very high rates of reported attempted suicide.

8.6 Australians die every day by suicide. That’s more than double the road toll

75% of those who take their own life are male

An unknown number of Australians attempt suicide every year, with some estimates suggesting this figure may be over 65,000

Suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between the ages of 15 and 44

The suicide rate in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is twice that of their non-Indigenous counterparts

People in rural populations are 2 times more likely to take their life by suicide

LGBTIQ+ community members report having attempted suicide in the past 12 months at a rate 10 times higher than the general Australian population

Data & Statistics - Lifeline Australia

Suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. The following statistics can be confronting, behind every number is a human life.

www.lifeline.org.au

 

[40 nil]

Informative in depth article about Ian Roberts

'I felt a fraud' - the double life of a rugby league legend

Ian Roberts was the best-paid player in the brutal world of Australian rugby league - but it took years for him to make the biggest and bravest play of his life.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Red Pill]

These players lead by the world's smallest prop are for better or worse seen as role models, mostly worst and that goes for most football players, not just these knuckle dress

Let me break this down for you, Barney style

These players have fans, some of which may prefer the company of the same sex, LGBTQ people happen to have the highest suicide rates of any type of people, mostly due to non acceptance by family members and people in their social circle and unfortunately the public make these people outcasts, which is a common cause for this community's people to mentally snap and end it all

This isn't a grey area matter and the jersey was never a gay pride jersey, making the situation even dumber, at no point did the club mention LGBTQ, the media and others put these 2 things together

In this case you're either with these people to accept who they are, or you're against them, in this matter there's simply no middle ground and while I'll never consider joining this lifestyle, I'm not one to hate them for who they are, unless of course an individual is a massive douchebag

Thanks for the breakdown. This break down is essentially your opinion which appears you are insisting upon ( which is shared by some others) as the way in which NRL players I guess sports people in general should order their moral priorities as an individual who has due to their vocation the possible capacity to have more influence upon others than most other vocations. In short a group think ( memetic group) not a consensus group collective’s opinion. This opinion is also suggesting that these people because of this position of perceived privilege be willing to sacrifice personal beliefs as in this case spiritual ones to follow/ submit to the group think desire.

It appears that you from the post where our conversation started are prepared to imply that any player not willing to fall in line with your group think priority should be somewhat punished and thus marginalised. Whilst I fully emphasise with the noble cause you are promoting I see this justification to attempt to limit an individual’s choice as scary as your profile picture.
I guess we have now had equal opportunity to be straight with each other….

In your initial post you suggested the following: “Move on the 7 along with the Reggie's who wouldn't play in their spot,I hate that there's a spot for bigots in our club wearing our jersey, start with the world's smallest prop Josh A'homophobe”

 

[manlyfan76]

Their faith is nothing more than their imagination. They should just imagine that rainbows are gods creation and embrace the colours.

 

[cherry_poppins]

According to these stats, the highest rates of suicides are among indigenous people and rural dwellers. LGBTIQ+ have very high rates of reported attempted suicide.

8.6 Australians die every day by suicide. That’s more than double the road toll

75% of those who take their own life are male

An unknown number of Australians attempt suicide every year, with some estimates suggesting this figure may be over 65,000

Suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between the ages of 15 and 44

The suicide rate in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is twice that of their non-Indigenous counterparts

People in rural populations are 2 times more likely to take their life by suicide

LGBTIQ+ community members report having attempted suicide in the past 12 months at a rate 10 times higher than the general Australian population

Data & Statistics - Lifeline Australia

Suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. The following statistics can be confronting, behind every number is a human life.

www.lifeline.org.au

Interesting reading but I was speaking worldwide, yes I know that non Australians probably wouldn't catch wind of this but frankly those statistics are horrific enough as is

I'm not going to pretend to know why indigenous are leading this statistic in Australia, however I'd point to rural areas being a big part of that statistic, intermixing so to speak,I wonder if there's overlap in that research or we're for serious lack of a better term weeding out the indigenous statistic apart from 'regular' rural, no offense is meant by that so please, don't take it the wrong way

 

[cherry_poppins]

Thanks for the breakdown. This break down is essentially your opinion which appears you are insisting upon ( which is shared by some others) as the way in which NRL players I guess sports people in general should order their moral priorities as an individual who has due to their vocation the possible capacity to have more influence upon others than most other vocations. In short a group think ( memetic group) not a consensus group collective’s opinion. This opinion is also suggesting that these people because of this position of perceived privilege be willing to sacrifice personal beliefs as in this case spiritual ones to follow/ submit to the group think desire.

It appears that you from the post where our conversation started are prepared to imply that any player not willing to fall in line with your group think priority should be somewhat punished and thus marginalised. Whilst I fully emphasise with the noble cause you are promoting I see this justification to attempt to limit an individual’s choice as scary as your profile picture.
I guess we have now had equal opportunity to be straight with each other….

In your initial post you suggested the following: “Move on the 7 along with the Reggie's who wouldn't play in their spot,I hate that there's a spot for bigots in our club wearing our jersey, start with the world's smallest prop Josh A'homophobe”

Interesting take, I was shamefully once like these, coming from Sydney's West, I remember feeling embarrassed and ashamed when someone I looked up to, perhaps someone we both looked up to, came out so to speak

Years later my eyes were forever opened,I had been changing slowly, hatred was never part of my makeup towards the group, more like I guess you'd say a general feeling of uncomfortable, as if I could catch it via osmosis

I was lucky enough to play a season of cricket with a completely regular guy, nothing set me to think he was one of 'them', he was my teammate and if someone targeted him you could bet your ass I'd torture them,I was our pace spearhead, I had the speed, the fire and I was not against causing pain, within reason, they'd be going home pasted in bruises,I guess I'm proud to say once he informed us nothing changed and I'm quite ashamed of the stupid kid I was, from a **** town that was essentially a hole, as in coming in from any direction seen you going down hill

Like it or not and like I said for mostly the worst people especially in Australia look up to sports stars, I'll repeat the jersey was never a gay pride jersey, it was inclusivity, women, Indians, Asians, LGBTQ,even 'half castes' like myself ,that jersey's intention was to include everyone, regardless of colour, creed or sexual preference

These players made it about themselves, they came out and virtually said as one voice 'we do not accept you, we reject you LGBTQ folk as you've made a choice to be like that' which I can safely say no, nobody has that choice

How would I know if I'm not one of that community? Simple, my 'perversion' which I didn't pick, because ridicule sucks, especially when your younger and hetero male friends, but my type deals with that too , in a more sadistic way, I'm straight by the way, not that it matters, none of this was a choice, but Freddy Mercury was right about what makes the world go around

 

[lsz]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don’t understand seriously how or why anyone would want to align possible suicide on a footy player’s decision on whether they wear a footy jersey or not. To imply that kind of responsibility on to a footy player does not seem right to me.

Pretty easy


Kid idolises a player.

Kid is confused about their sexuality.

Kid sees player hero say that they will not wear a jersey which helps to support their lifestyle

Then read all the stats about gay youth suicide

Whilst not direct responsibility they are public figures whose actions have consequences (much like I assume would have happened in their church if they had played - although I am yet ti see any stats on how inclusive thought causes suicide etc)

 

[40 nil]

Interesting reading but I was speaking worldwide, yes I know that non Australians probably wouldn't catch wind of this but frankly those statistics are horrific enough as is

I doubt LGBTQ suicides can be shown to be the highest anywhere, let alone world wide. Maybe you've seen studies that show otherwise? Unless an individual has publicly come out, there is no way of knowing if that person is a member of LGBTQ community. If it is confirmed that a person has suicided, then demographically the classifications will be according to age, gender, ethnicity, social-economics, locality etc. In some countries there are major blocks to coming out, e.g. prison or execution. In those countries, there is no way of knowing if suicide victims are LGBTQ & even if it was known, the government wouldn't broadcast the fact. In some countries, even suicide is crime! (i.e. unsuccessful suicide).

I am not suggesting that the suicide rate of the LGBTQ community is not high and that it is not a major problem. I would think that non acceptance by one's own family, general homophobia, and being bullied would often be proximate causes for such suicides (or suicide attempts).

I am currently in Thailand. I wonder how LGBTQ suicide rates are here? The LGBTQ community appears to have wide acceptance and also there doesn't appear to be a macho man culture.

I'm not going to pretend to know why indigenous are leading this statistic in Australia, however I'd point to rural areas being a big part of that statistic, intermixing so to speak,I wonder if there's overlap in that research or we're for serious lack of a better term weeding out the indigenous statistic apart from 'regular' rural, no offense is meant by that so please, don't take it the wrong way

I think studies why there are high suicide rates amongst rural dwellers & indigenous people in Australia (& likely worldwide) should be readily available. These two categories may overlap sometimes, but not all indigenous people live in rural communities. Possible reasons for high suicide rates in rural areas in Australia could be social isolation and easier access to the killing methods of insecticides & firearms. Worldwide, insecticide is the method in 20% suicides. In America, the main form of firearm death is suicide (others being accidental & homicide).

 

[Red Pill]

These players made it about themselves, they came out and virtually said as one voice 'we do not accept you, we reject you LGBTQ folk as you've made a choice to be like that' which I can safely say no, nobody has that choice

I don’t see it this way and am of the view this is somewhat a projection. Their stance (players) on the jersey does not mean the players don’t accept LGBTIQ people at all. I see this ultimatum type thinking as a kind of emotional blackmailing however i fully get it is a noble cause..
The irony of all this is that the club who came up with this proposal was apparently more concerned with optics as opposed to genuine need of the people you are trying to support. The belief about optics is highlighted in a recent abc news article… I wonder what potential impact this could have on kids as well when they possibly come to conclusion of some of the motivations behind it? If so do you feel the same resentments towards the club as you have towards the players who would not wear the jersey?

 

[Red Pill]

Pretty easy


Kid idolises a player.

Kid is confused about their sexuality.

Kid sees player hero say that they will not wear a jersey which helps to support their lifestyle

Then read all the stats about gay youth suicide

Whilst not direct responsibility they are public figures whose actions have consequences (much like I assume would have happened in their church if they had played - although I am yet ti see any stats on how inclusive thought causes suicide etc)

I agree these are all important and compelling points, however it is in essence a circumstantial projection. The question is, is this enough of a reason to ask someone ( to all but to compel them ) who has a higher than normal social influencing capability to re-prioritise the hierarchy of their personal / spiritual values to accommodate this? I only see true good coming from this ( and I do believe it is a good cause) if someone is genuinely willing from their own free will to do it. If something like this is done for the sake of optics or a form of compulsion the LGBTQI people’s will see through this regardless.

I understand that suicide is the highest cause of death across 25-44 year olds in Australia especially more predominantly men. Causes are also indicated per below, I have not noted a specific reference to this situation though however I don’t doubt it’s significance. I think all of us should be taking some kind of ownership of this in how we go about our own everyday lives….for everyone! regardless of their sexuality, race, religion etc.

The 5 Risk Factors for Male Suicide

Social factors are key drivers of male suicide and should be prioritised in a developing a male suicide prevention strategy, says the Australian Men’s Health Forum ahead of World Suicide Prevention Day on September 10, 2020.

www.amhf.org.au

 

[lsz]

I agree these are all important and compelling points, however it is in essence a circumstantial projection. The question is, is this enough of a reason to ask someone ( to all but to compel them ) who has a higher than normal social influencing capability to re-prioritise the hierarchy of their personal / spiritual values to accommodate this? I only see true good coming from this ( and I do believe it is a good cause) if someone is genuinely willing from their own free will to do it. If something like this is done for the sake of optics or a form of compulsion the LGBTQI people’s will see through this regardless.

I understand that suicide is the highest cause of death across 25-44 year olds in Australia especially more predominantly men. Causes are also indicated per below, I have not noted a specific reference to this situation though however I don’t doubt it’s significance. I think all of us should be taking some kind of ownership of this in how we go about our own everyday lives….for everyone! regardless of their sexuality, race, religion etc.

The 5 Risk Factors for Male Suicide

Social factors are key drivers of male suicide and should be prioritised in a developing a male suicide prevention strategy, says the Australian Men’s Health Forum ahead of World Suicide Prevention Day on September 10, 2020.

www.amhf.org.au

I guess the overriding issue for me is my view does not hurt anyone (it is the issue I have with “both sides”)

 

[Woodsie]

I guess the overriding issue for me is my view does not hurt anyone (it is the issue I have with “both sides”)

Hold my beer ...

Don't you think that the virtue signallers who decided without consultation or second thought, that it would be a good idea to put a known group of Christians with strong convictions on the spot. A group that hadn't publicly voiced any enmity to anyone ... and most probably never would have ... caused hurt ?

Don't you think having their character, convictions, religion and integrity suffer the abuse, shaming and media vitriol, and eventual exclusion ... caused them and their families, their children, hurt ?

There are no winners here ... no one entitled to claim the silver chalice of virtue ...

 

[Technical Coach]

I guess the overriding issue for me is my view does not hurt anyone (it is the issue I have with “both sides”)

In your "opinion" your views don't hurt anyone, it's that kind of delivery from "both" sides that causes more harm than good without you even realising it.

 

[Technical Coach]

According to these stats, the highest rates of suicides are among indigenous people and rural dwellers. LGBTIQ+ have very high rates of reported attempted suicide.

8.6 Australians die every day by suicide. That’s more than double the road toll

75% of those who take their own life are male

An unknown number of Australians attempt suicide every year, with some estimates suggesting this figure may be over 65,000

Suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between the ages of 15 and 44

The suicide rate in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is twice that of their non-Indigenous counterparts

People in rural populations are 2 times more likely to take their life by suicide

LGBTIQ+ community members report having attempted suicide in the past 12 months at a rate 10 times higher than the general Australian population

Data & Statistics - Lifeline Australia

Suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. The following statistics can be confronting, behind every number is a human life.

www.lifeline.org.au

I'm sure the stats are not great for the LGBTIQ+ but the results are not indentical for each sexual orientation.

Bisexual women for example have the highest attempted rates and the poorest mental health relative to the others in the group along with poor physical health, could it be that sexual attraction confusion has more to do with the mental state of the person than outside influences combined with being female and naturally more emotional.

We live in a world now that is far more open and accepting of sexuality yet the rates don't seem to be going down, it's the same with depression, the more we supposedly know about the condition there are no improvements in the rates either.

 

[lsz]

In your "opinion" your views don't hurt anyone, it's that kind of delivery from "both" sides that causes more harm than good without you even realising it.

Where is the evidence? Do I really need to go through the rate of teen suicide?

Show me any data that says being inclusive causes harm? That homophobia is a positive?