The God Debate

[Canteen Worker]

Some of you may have sat through the thread of over a year ago on the God Debate. I think it was the longest ever thread on the site.

A programme on ABC TV, based on the book by Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion has stirred up debate today and there is an interesting debate - both for and against on a blog run by the Herald.

For those interested - http://blogs.smh.com.au/newsblog/archives/your_say/013408.html

If not interested - stay well clear. Religion and God always stirs up much controversy!!

 

[clontaago]

Its funny. Ask most religious people if they believe in Aliens and most of them would say no. Why?

Probably the exact same reasons that Atheists give for not believing in God.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Was never a big beleiver in God, but then I saw Clifford Lyons on the footy field

 

[Matabele]

Dawkins' credibility took a huge knock in Time magazine last year when he admitted the chances of life as we know it occuring without intervention were 50 billion to one.

His lame justification is that there are 50 billion galaxies. :lol:

Now I see he has resorted to grubby ACA and Today Tonight tactics of ambushing the unintelligent looney fringe of the hard right wing Christian literalists and painting them as "mainstream Christianity". I guess there goes any skerrick of credibility he might have left.

I take it his book sales have slumped since hiw toweeling up by an intelligent Christian in Time so he has to do something desperate to arrest the slide and boost his bank balance.

Chump change.....

 

[Dan]

Matabele, How did that knock his credibility.

He isn't hiding behind different facts. interestingly what are the odds that there is a "God" I ask you?

Shall we start the site we wanted to a while back?

 

[Matabele]

Odd of there being a god would have to be the reverse of whatever 50billion to one is.

 

[PJ]

Its funny. Ask most religious people if they believe in Aliens and most of them would say no. Why?

Probably the exact same reasons that Atheists give for not believing in God.

lol....reminds me of the devils party on South Park the other night....all the priests had these little naked kids on a dog lead who followed them around everywhere....they pushed the boundaries that night....they also had Steve Irwin rock up to the party with a stingray barb hanging out his chest.

If religion floats your boat good luck to you but I've had it thrown down my throat (not literally - I went to a Marist Brother school- not a Christian Brothers) my whole life (up until leaving school) and can see it for nothing more than a story written many years ago by god knows who (if he exists 😉 ) preached about by a bunch of hypocrites.
The more you sift through religion the more B/S you dig up but if it gets people through the hard times then good luck to them.

 

[ManlyBacker]

Odd of there being a god would have to be the reverse of whatever 50billion to one is.

That would be 1 - 50,000,000,000 (odds on). That is rubbish. I am pleased the debate has been started again and at least I know I am not the only one who has doubts (I mean serious doubts) about the existence of any being that has a direct relationship with us as individuals or as a flock. Seems there are heaps of like-minded, rational, questioning, don't believe in the rantings of ancient scribes types out there so I have hope.

Here we go again I guess.

 

[Dan]

No they dont have to be the reverse Matabele.

This is where the church and god crowd get it wrong. You make massive assumptions.

Simply because Dawkings said that the odds against there being some assistance in the creation of the universe does not automatically imply that there is a creator, or god and also does not imply that the odds that there are a creator are 1 to every 50 billion.

If you had actually taken the time to read previous studies and theories available by Dawkings he does subscribe to a "Cascading Universe" theory.

For you non boffins out there this essentially means that he believes that there are a infinite cascading versions of the universe, and the odds are that at one time or another the chances are things are going to be 100% perfect.

What he is discussing when he mentioned the above is that yes the chances of everything being perfect are pretty damn steep, but that does not mean that it can not happen.

The best comparison I can give is the old, an infinite number of monkeys working for an infinite amount of time on typewriters will eventually create the works of william shakespeare!

Make sense yet kiddo or are you going to make the fatal mistake that your lot tends to do to oft?

 

[Dan]

[quote author=Matabele]
Odd of there being a god would have to be the reverse of whatever 50billion to one is.

That would be 1 - 50,000,000,000 (odds on). That is rubbish. I am pleased the debate has been started again and at least I know I am not the only one who has doubts (I mean serious doubts) about the existence of any being that has a direct relationship with us as individuals or as a flock. Seems there are heaps of like-minded, rational, questioning, don't believe in the rantings of ancient scribes types out there so I have hope.

Here we go again I guess.

[/quote]

exactly.

With those odds, well that would mean we wouldnt be having the debate.

I know you are more intelligent than that Matabele

 

[ManlyBacker]

If you look at the evolutionary history on earth we have had some of the most god-awful (parden the expression 🙂) monstrosities that have come and gone. From microbes that developed probably in excess of 4 billion years ago we have had all sorts of organisms and I remember reading a long time ago that man's participation on Earth was equal to about 2 seconds in a 24 hour day. For those who feel we are influenced by someone higher I guess he just didn't feel like it for 23 hrs 59 mins and 58 secs of those 24 hrs.

 

[Matabele]

What he is discussing when he mentioned the above is that yes the chances of everything being perfect are pretty damn steep, but that does not mean that it can not happen.

The best comparison I can give is the old, an infinite number of monkeys working for an infinite amount of time on typewriters will eventually create the works of william shakespeare!

In other words it requires more faith to be an atheist.

You blokes are brave then, particularly when you consider your champion doesn't live by his own creed.

 

[Dan]

No not at all.

He is simply discussing the odds that he was asked to provide. Did anyone ask him the odds of the fact there is a creator?

Simple taking a statement and twisting it to what you want to believe doesnt make the statements meaning any different.

Answers are usually found through questions Matabele not forceful and twisted statements.

I dare say I side with those who ask questions and seek answers not those who claim to have them all already, which is why science wins everytime, they dont claim to be right, but they do claim to seek the right answer and will adjust the answer when proof comes along that disproves their current tested theory.

The church however will not twist and can not twist its argument. They believe they have the answer but will not try test their answer and will not seek more answers.

"Look no further"

 

[nodd]

do the champions of Christianity all live by their own creed?

 

[The Gronk]

Oh god...here we go again....where is Punxtatawny Phil when you need him?

Some points:

1. Dan-Cascading Universe Theory. Just like in the fifth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide Trilogy eh? That was the one where the two main characters ended up materialising on a couch in the outfield of an ahses test match at lords.
The theory works well, but from a scientific standpoint it has problems because it is not observable and therefore not provable or disprovable. Sort of like god....

2. Mata-50 billion galaxies? Back to school for you methinks. I think you meant stars, ie. the sun. Planets, where life could exist, orbit stars, not galaxies. The milky way is the galaxy, and there are at least 100 billion stars within our galaxy alone, so the numbers are not as small as you make out.

3. Mata, are you saying that if there is no other life forms, that god exists, and if there are other forms that god doesn't exist? That dichotomy only exists because the following is often missed:

4. Even if God exists, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are the God described in the bible, and therefore tied in to a creation myth of us being the only life forms.

5. If you want to work out the number of technologal civilisations in the universe, there is a thing called the Drake equation. Basically it takes in to account all the things we think are needed for intelligent life to exist. If you can work out the values for each of these variables then you can work out how many intelligent life forms there are. http://www.astro.indiana.edu/drake/intro.html

 

[Matabele]

nodd. No they don't. but there are some that try to.

Gronk - correct. Dawkins said there would have to be 50 billion universes. Dan can twist and turn as much as he likes but his hero is talking up some huge odds. Dan likes to pin his faith on a 50 billion to one shot. :blaugh:

 

[Matabele]

Oh, and I see Dan wants questions.

If Dawkins has said the odds of random existence as we know it is 50 billion to one what then are the odds that random existence didn't happen by chance?

aka if you strike out one of the options in a two horse race ..........

 

[The Gronk]

Well you can work out the odds of a random existence using the Drake equation.

My thoughts on the multiple universes though, it is probably just as likely that there would be 50 billion (ie. infinite) as there would be two.

 

[Matabele]

So we're bloody lucky then!

 

[The Gronk]

well I have no idea how likely it is....it might be very likely, but I would have thought if it is possible at all that there would be no limit as to how many universes there could be...