The Bad, The Terrible and The Pathetic

[Carl]

I wasn't suggesting it was anyone else's fault. 100% us. I'm saying you don't need to go any further than that to explain the loss.

 

[frank stokes]

Got to say, reading all the posts pretty happy I missed the game with work. Won’t be watching the replay.

I would advise against it… re-watch the storm game if you need your fix…

 

[KNUCKLES]

Tuipolutu showed promise early because he was slightly taller than tafua but has regressed tremendously since the game has changed, add to the huge list of players in this category in our top30, its quite a list.

Recruit another centre, and put koula on the wing. Least he can catch a high ball. Can be a an addo carr type winger. Seems a little pedestrian in the centre role anyway.

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

I'm a little surprised that results like last night's still seem to come as a shock to people. If you take off your maroon-tinted glasses, take away standout individual performances and the occasional morale-boosting win, we are just not a very good team. Six wins, one draw, seven losses, and a points differential of -8. That is who we are. By NRL standards, we are bog ordinary. And we have been that way for a very long time.

Yes, on a good day, when the stars align and everything goes our way, we are capable of playing some lovely football. We can beat anyone. But those good days are few and far between. There is no consistency in our performances or play. There is no backbone or resilience. The minute something goes against us, we roll over and ask Wombat64 to call for the Lubemobile. We do not have good habits. We do not have good structures. We do not display consistent application or desire.

So yeah, we might jag a win here and there. We might even get two in a row every now and then. But that appears to be our ceiling.

Is it the coaching? Maybe, although we've been through four separate coaching groups since we last got near a premiership, and while some players have changed, the basic identity of the team - inconsistent, flat-track bullies, always looking for a shortcut to success - has not. I'd also like to think that players who are promoted to NRL squads have at least mastered the basics of the game - catching, tacking, running, etc - but apparently that is also too much to ask.

So is it the players? No doubt we have some very talented players and some not-so-talented players. Every NRL roster does. But for whatever reason, our blokes don't seem to function as a group - as a team.

But is that on the players themselves, or on the people who put those players together? You know - the recruitment and retention types at the club who call up Player Agent A and Player Agent B and ask for a cut-price deal on the latest crop of NRL Misfits and Discards in exchange for a coaching appointment or two.

Or is it, applying the Fish Rots from the Head Down theory, all on the management and owners, who have not been known for their astute decision-making abilities over the years?

If you answered, "Why, it's all of the above!", you are correct. The problem then becomes, how do we fix it, and where do we start?

 

[frank stokes]

I'm a little surprised that results like last night's still seem to come as a shock to people. If you take off your maroon-tinted glasses, take away standout individual performances and the occasional morale-boosting win, we are just not a very good team. Six wins, one draw, seven losses, and a points differential of -8. That is who we are. By NRL standards, we are bog ordinary. And we have been that way for a very long time.

Yes, on a good day, when the stars align and everything goes our way, we are capable of playing some lovely football. We can beat anyone. But those good days are few and far between. There is no consistency in our performances or play. There is no backbone or resilience. The minute something goes against us, we roll over and ask Wombat64 to call for the Lubemobile. We do not have good habits. We do not have good structures. We do not display consistent application or desire.

So yeah, we might jag a win here and there. We might even get two in a row every now and then. But that appears to be our ceiling.

Is it the coaching? Maybe, although we've been through four separate coaching groups since we last got near a premiership, and while some players have changed, the basic identity of the team - inconsistent, flat-track bullies, always looking for a shortcut to success - has not. I'd also like to think that players who are promoted to NRL squads have at least mastered the basics of the game - catching, tacking, running, etc - but apparently that is also too much to ask.

So is it the players? No doubt we have some very talented players and some not-so-talented players. Every NRL roster does. But for whatever reason, our blokes don't seem to function as a group - as a team.

But is that on the players themselves, or on the people who put those players together? You know - the recruitment and retention types at the club who call up Player Agent A and Player Agent B and ask for a cut-price deal on the latest crop of NRL Misfits and Discards in exchange for a coaching appointment or two.

Or is it, applying the Fish Rots from the Head Down theory, all on the management and owners, who have not been known for their astute decision-making abilities over the years?

If you answered, "Why, it's all of the above!", you are correct. The problem then becomes, how do we fix it, and where do we start?

So much controversy and so many poor recruitment decisions since Penns took over…

It is not all on them of course but the culture is set by those that control the purse strings and our culture over the last 10 years is a losing one that accepts mediocrity…

 

[KaZa]

Do you think Vaega is any better in the air than Tui? He certainly has a little more aggression, however he has plenty of mistakes in him as well.

Maybe on par... not like Tui is good at it. Every other part of the game I think Vaega is better. I'd also play Ferris over Tui. He literally has one attribute. Running metres. Not even great at that. Not good enough imo. No aggression or speed. Without one I can't see how you succeed as a winger. Needs time in nsw cup to develop further. Give someone else a run

 

[Waz13]

How that big beast of a guy Olakau'atu can only make 10 runs for 87 metres in an entire 80 minutes is beyond me.

He’s been down in form for a while tbh. Frizzel and young picked ahead of him for nsw says it all really.

 

[Waz13]

Why can parra play without there halves & we can’t.We’re nothing without dce yet parra went ok without moses.

They didn’t really play halves in a conventional sense.

 

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

Our only consistency is that we consistently throw up dogsht performances like that every couple of weeks. 6 hideous out of the 7 losses. I'm not seeing anything different from the last 10 years of failure and mediocrity. Only 1 season , 2021, where we looked competative and you felt we could win but even then we couldn't get close to any of the other top 4 teams. Tonight just proves once again we are nowhere near the top teams and highly doubtful now that we'll get into the 8.

2019 we were 10 min from a preliminary final without Tom. Not shabby at all with the players we had at the time.

 

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

Sipley at least bends the line and can go with the big guys when he needs to, Aloiai and company cannot.

Nothing wrong with Sipley. He generally goes 100% of his ability. Aloiai needs to be let go asap.

 

[Waz13]

Because Gutho is always there. Its a huge advantage when your fullback is always there because your defence is directed by your fullback and if they are as good as gutho then they direct your attack too. We have a Fullback who is trying to adjust to being a 1st grader let alone game manage anything, add to that we had zero direction from our halves in game management. Croker heart of a lion but defended himself to a standstill which is a problem because he offers very little in attack to begin with. Arthur was dreadful and has no organising or presence and unfortunately proved tonight why Parra fans gave him such a hard time and that Parra was right to move him on, they knew they would smash him tonight and Brad Arthur knew how to pull the poor kid's game apart, he probably just confined his sons career to the reserve grade dust bin, well done Brad. Schuster will always be the sprinkles on top of fairy bread but don't expect him to be the bread or the butter, we need more bread and butter toilers in the middle to compliment the sprinkles not just sprinkles on a plate. In short we have no Top class middle forwards other than Jake T & Paseka. Keppie and Toff would be ok with better players around them but Woods, Aloiai, Bullimore, Lawton, Tualagi & Condon are moneyball signings that are hot garbage. We needed to go for guys like Mark Nicholls, Tom Flegler or even Spencer Leniu we need genuine hard workers and game breakers and an enforcer not a plastic enforcer like Aloiai who's enforcing involves crowding a play the ball. Ola is outstanding & Fainu is coming along well so no issue on the edges if the middle has starch. If we manage to sign 2 1st class middle forwards with our backs we will win a premiership.

Bit rough on Arthur. He was poor no doubt but have you ever played half behind a pack that dishes that garbage up? Pack never gave him a chance.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

You’re not going to fix the problem by playing the less talented Blacktown guys. Different doesn’t mean better. The problem will need to be fixed with quality external recruitment. No good replacing crap with crap.

How much quality external recruitment can you achieve with Jurbo,Schu,Turbo,DCE, Mole taking most of the cash...and thats not including the 600k Aloai is on as well. We dont have much of a choice but to promote from within, even if they are par average.
Even when Lyon,Choc,Matai,Stewart bros took unders we could only get the likes of Mark Bryant, George Rose, Rodney, Horo, Galavuo,etc. And with the Dolphins coming in , they will be frontrunners with access to the best talent out there.
The best we can hope for is a Ben Kennedy type signing who is on the wrong side of 30 and looking to use his experience to help the team. We aren't going to be signing any decent talent soon, especially with the Dolphins present as well as the Roosters doing a clearance sale.
BWSE is the most cost effective option we have at the moment.

 

[Waz13]

I think it all flowed from low possession and 10 minutes with 12 players early in the game. We were always on the back foot after that. They could run through us in the middle. They could put up attacking bombs with pressure on the catcher. We dropped more balls. Less possession. More tired ...

And no leadership out there to steel the resilience

 

[Rocky]

Tuipolutu showed promise early because he was slightly taller than tafua but has regressed tremendously since the game has changed, add to the huge list of players in this category in our top30, its quite a list.

Yep Tui i think was a bit of a prodigy in NZ and you can see why - he would have been dominate with ball in hand at a junior level.

But he has failed to show at the NRL level that he has the football IQ to be decent at defence or with the ball in the air

 

[Waz13]

I'd like to see stats per game of handling errors and possession in the first 20 minutes vs final margin.

Was quite similar to broncos game in a lot of ways really. Blown out in the first. Steadied a bit in the second before the opposition nailed a couple late trys on us. Both efforts complete unacceptable.

 

[LeonardCohen]

How much quality external recruitment can you achieve with Jurbo,Schu,Turbo,DCE, Mole taking most of the cash...and thats not including the 600k Aloai is on as well. We dont have much of a choice but to promote from within, even if they are par average.
Even when Lyon,Choc,Matai,Stewart bros took unders we could only get the likes of Mark Bryant, George Rose, Rodney, Horo, Galavuo,etc. And with the Dolphins coming in , they will be frontrunners with access to the best talent out there.
The best we can hope for is a Ben Kennedy type signing who is on the wrong side of 30 and looking to use his experience to help the team. We aren't going to be signing any decent talent soon, especially with the Dolphins present as well as the Roosters doing a clearance sale.
BWSE is the most cost effective option we have at the moment.

I'm not suggesting external recruitment is possible, I am suggesting it's the only thing that will fix the problem. Put it this way, if we are stuck with our current roster, I'd prefer we play keep playing them in spite of losing. Why? Because I am against the idea of replacing a failing 17 with an even worse failing 17. If we drop a heap of players and replace them with the less talented Blacktown crew, we won't lose 34-4, we'll lose 64-4. Unless the players stepping up are an improvement (which they aren't), then it makes sense to trot out the same failing 17 and minimise the damage.

The likes of Vaega and Condon are not going to turn our fortunes around. Chan Kum Tong has shown his defence is not up to it, so we might as well keep playing Croker at 9 until we can go to market and get a suitable replacement. There are worse sides in the NRL than Manly. We aren't at crisis point. The Cowboys had 66 put on them, the Dolphins had 58, the Sharks 52. If we ring in wholesale changes and promote a heap of reserve graders, we might end up with 66 put on us. It's not the answer.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

I'm not suggesting external recruitment is possible, I am suggesting it's the only thing that will fix the problem. Put it this way, if we are stuck with our current roster, I'd prefer we play keep playing them in spite of losing. Why? because I am against the idea of replacing a failing 17 with an even worse failing 17. If we drop a heap of players and replace them with the less talented Blacktown side, we won't lose 34-4, we'll lose 64-4. Unless the players stepping up are an improvement (which they aren't), then it makes sense to trot out the same failing 17 and minimise the damage.

The likes of Vaega and Condon are not going to turn our fortunes around. Chan Kum Tong has shown his defence is not up to it, so we might as well keep playing Croker at 9 until we can go to market and get a suitable replacement. There are worse sides in the NRL than Manly. We aren't at crisis point. The Cowboys had 66 put on them, the Dolphins had 58, the Sharks 52. If we ring in wholesale changes and promote a heap of reserve graders, we might end up with 66 put on us. It's not the answer.

The thing is you won't know until you give them a try. We found out the hard way with Nicho Hynes.
Baz decided that Blake Green / Dylan Walker was the answer at the 6 and look what happened. You have to start giving kids a go from your own backyard and not signing failed players from other clubs. At least its not an expensive exercise. It's true , there might be big floggings that come along with promoting youth, but its part of the learning curve. You can't expect the kids to come up and win every game.
I'd rather lose by 100 with a young squad than to lose by 10 or 12 every game with a 6 year old squad who's players are nearing the age of 30.

 

[LeonardCohen]

The thing is you won't know until you give them a try. We found out the hard way with Nicho Hynes.

Are you suggesting Hynes was playing the type of footy he is playing now, back when he was at Manly? He couldn't get an NRL contract with the other 15 clubs at the time, because his career was in the toilet. It took years for him to sort himself out and start playing good consistent footy.

If Gordon CKT is missing multiple simple one on one tackles in NSW Cup, how is he going to handle the likes of Payne Haas?

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Are you suggesting Hynes was playing the type of footy he is playing now, back when he was at Manly? He couldn't get an NRL contract with the other 15 clubs at the time, because his career was in the toilet. It took years for him to sort himself out and start playing good consistent footy.

If Gordon CKT is missing multiple simple one on one tackles in NSW Cup, how is he going to handle the likes of Payne Haas?

Considering he was the 2nd best player week in week out in Toyota Cup behind Turbo I would say yes, because I watched many of the those games. There were times Turbo would be scoring 5 tries in 1 game and Hynes was the one setting him up.
As for GCKT missing tackles, he only had that 1 game where he missed 3 tackles two weeks ago.
If you want to get into the topic of missed tackles, Croker misses his fair share as well.
Compare that to someone like Ray Stone....he made 55 tackles in one game without a missed tackle.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Considering he was the 2nd best player week in week out in Toyota Cup behind Turbo I would say yes, because I watched many of the those games.
As for GCKT missing tackles, he only had that 1 game where he missed 3 tackles two weeks ago.

Must be that the other 15 clubs never bothered watching a single game of his then, because not one NRL recruitment officer or official thought it would be a good idea to sign him to an NRL deal. Instead he wallowed in QLD Cup without a deal.

How Hynes went from unwanted to State of Origin

Nicho Hynes still remembers the rugby league game that changed his life. Unwanted by Manly when he finished under-20s, Hynes was going nowhere fast in his second year of Queensland Cup with Mackay.

www.espn.com.au

In his first season at the club he had failed to impress scouts at North Queensland, as Mackay finished out of the 2017 finals.
The 2018 season had started no better, and Hynes later admitted he was questioning where his career would go from there.
"Just remember back in Mackay five years ago, sitting there with no NRL contract, not knowing if I could ever play NRL.
"I was really doubting myself over whether I could make it or not. I thought I was done, and there was no way I was getting back into the NRL.