LeonardCohen
Bencher
this has to be one of the great posts in the annals of Silvertails 😂
Systems v weapons
- Thread starter jbb/james
- Start date
I don't know about you being a lunatic Bozo (certainly possible) but you have got me more worried than I was before your post, coz all I see now is Pennywise 😱
I reckon "systems" is open to interpretation? Are you/we talking about the structure of the Club management (who and how it functions), how the club generates revenue, how we develop and recruit players, a certain style of play the Club management wants a certain coach to bring???
Do you consider all those things part of a "system"? I'm not so sure.
I guess I look at it in crass simple terms. First you need significant money backing the Club (all the leading Clubs have this), that gives you the ability to attract quality players. It's a bonus to be in an area where the demographics provide a large pool of juniors to develop Then as long as you have a stable and competent management in place and a coach that can take advantage of that, you'll go a long way towards success. That success then perpetuates the attraction of money and quality players.
Penrith has huge pokie revenue and a huge pool of footy players and a competent mgmt and coach. West Tigers on the other hand have the money and a large pool of juniors but up until recently, incompetent management.
The Storm had the money backing them and competent mgmt. I still don't really understand their junior pool other than they have a feeder club like other clubs. Certainly the coach had a lot to do with it and the success they've had continues to attract quality players. And yes, they seem to develop average players but is that a "system" or just a good coach?
Anyway, as far as Manly is concerned, I think it's fair to say that our financial backing, our local junior development, a stable competent mgmt and our coaching dramas (not necessarily all at the same time) have impacted on our ability to attract high quality players (to compliment players like Turbo, DCE etc).
To be fair, I think Mestrov has tried hard to get all those things I've mentioned back on track. I don't know if this is the "system" you're talking about but they just seem pretty basic to running a footy club.
Coz you know, I've run so many in my life 🤣
NO NO NO NO .... I'm reliably informed that Froggy and Rubes run the show ... and just tell Seib's what to do.
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Our success in the 90’s came off the back of a few check books pre salary cap with a crop of exceptional local talent coming through. Was truly a golden time on the northern beaches.
Our success during the Des area was built since 2005 when he took over, players wanted to stay together and all took huge pay cuts and back ended contracts in the pursuit of success.
That brings us to now where we have been building a core unit of players but we still need to find an effective system to bring us success in the modern era. I feel this could come with the next round of contract negotiations when some of the bigger players renegotiate. We know Tommy/Jake will take a big pay cut to get a ring. This might trickle down through the roster for winnings sake.
🤣 What are you trying to say there, Woodsie??
Poor old Froggy. Ya reckon he feels like he's in the boiling pot? 🤣
Edit: sorry @Woodsie, for some reason I could only see half of your post before. I see what you're saying now 😄
Yep, that core group was important back then. But is getting a couple of quality players in key positions an "effective system" or is it just getting a couple of quality players?? I feel it's pretty straightforward. You need to be playing consistent footy with no dramas in the Club and should be able to attract those players.
manly al
First Grader
Guess that if the past ten seasons or so is taken into account and in regard to success , systems or effective systems have been paramount or the main prerequisite but having a few weapons to boot certainly helps also .
Then the stability factor pretty vital as well .
Only have to look at the Panthers and Storm that have and seem to continue to have those advantages in the stable coaching, systems and key positional personal as well .
A largely good run with injuries have certainly assisted as well
Just having the weapons factor can certainly help but seem to be only to get you so far if the effective systems and to a lesser extent , stability aspects aren"t also in the mix .
See where Seibs is coming from trying to maximize Manly 's strength in attacking prowess and if the side can manage on a more consistent basis that harder edge and more consistent defensive resolve , maybe the type of overall system to lift the team further up the rating level
Then the stability factor pretty vital as well .
Only have to look at the Panthers and Storm that have and seem to continue to have those advantages in the stable coaching, systems and key positional personal as well .
A largely good run with injuries have certainly assisted as well
Just having the weapons factor can certainly help but seem to be only to get you so far if the effective systems and to a lesser extent , stability aspects aren"t also in the mix .
See where Seibs is coming from trying to maximize Manly 's strength in attacking prowess and if the side can manage on a more consistent basis that harder edge and more consistent defensive resolve , maybe the type of overall system to lift the team further up the rating level
More of the completely unnecessary .
But Morning woody . Good thanks before you ask
Have you really tried to understand the post.
Owner, coach, playing group or leadership group i see as the only people who influence selection. I only asked for thoughts , never ever claimed .
Most of the theories have been here before. I just joined some dots in the off season to start chatter. frog and rubes have had their support yet stacks of posters wonder if they are the best fit. Big froggy fan here but understand he is not everyone first choice because i can read
Just asked who the group was and does anyone think they carried sway
I then went on to ask if we should be more system orientated
I really am living in your head rent free, at first i thought it was creepy but i am starting to enjoy it
I am sure you will demand an answer to something i never claimed so you can justify feeling aggrieved
Relax buddy , its not what your trying to make it
I do seem to have missed the whole Froggy etc - do they have sway thing, in my babble fest, JBB.
I think all the "core" players have an influence on both players staying and being drawn to a club. But I'd say more so younger lesser experienced players. Top tier players will move for money and/or to play with a team they think can win them a comp. And sometimes family I guess.
I think if they have too much influence on selection, then that's not a good thing in the long run.
But I see all that as seperate to your question about systems. Assuming I understand properly what you're discussing 🤣
No purely talking about on field
Much is made of the top teams to all play roles rather than have so much off cuff play. Off cuff play is wonderful once the foot is on the throat
We often look rattled with no memory or belief on how to fix it. Getting back to basics when we have scoreboard pressure doesn't seem our way . Its all in or fizz
We have looked similar or more importantly looked vulnerable in the same areas under different methods, systems or coaches.
Fair call., so much talk about winning systems, never manlys though
Also asked about our systems which i realise they have but seem less effective
Manlys language seems to be more about weapons of mass destruction rather than the grind
One is succesful, one is not , yet the fragile parts of our game seems very consistent . I wondered that because the leadership have been the big consistent , and it contains really good role models , great humans on big coin. Might be hard to force change to clarify
Was my thinking. No fact
Gotcha! That, in my mind, should be an easier fix (eventually) than the whole box and dice. I have confidence that Siebs (and Mestrov for that matter) does at least have a plan and I don't mind the idea that there is no point in trying to play Penrith like Penrith. That is, playing a certain style (in our case backline speed and somewhat off the cuff plays in our half). But you still need the basics, right? Solid defence and at least a couple of big mobile forwards.
There's a lot of frustration on here with not getting those types of players. I would refer to my first babble as to why that has been difficult. I don't think it's for want of trying.
But we're not going to take the next step up without those key players.
Seibold talks of setting up a lasting system that will stand the club in good stead but obviously also needs to win games now, so a no-brainer to say we'll play to our current strengths ('weapons')(yes the buzz-word can be annoying)
Doesn't mean he isn't trying to change the style of the side over time.
Overall, surely any coach would be mad to ignore what the senior players think? But equally mad to comply with their wishes against his own better judgement, because his job is on the line.
Example - signing Waddell is consistent with the strategy of bolstering depth with low cost players who've proved they can handle NRL ...Brown, Lodge, Tevaga, Sio, Schoupp, Chee Kam etc - competent, experienced, not stars, but cheap. If he's in the 'in family' where's the harm? In fact all the better.
One of Seibold's strengths seems to be that he wants to make use of the expertise of others, rather than assume he knows best about everything. May not be the old-fashioned way but in the rapidly modernising NRL, sounds quite smart to me.
Thanks
Not unhappy with seibs, we need consistency and like you say he seems to be building pathways
He has improved the team, squad and maybe added a touch more starch or resilience, and he has had to do it with very little wriggle room in our cap
But while things change our frailties, mental toughness, ability to concede late tries, a barrage of tries or get beaten by spooners remains consistent over a long stretch. Surely something is not right with this . Top 4 was ours last season until the familiar no show Against the tigpies .
Our leadership group seems to be about the cleanest bunch of humans the NRL could muster. Real credits to themselves and club
LeonardCohen
Bencher
Personally, I can see the advantage in Waddell—cheap, reliable, committed and a good teammate…offering him a two year deal simply because he is a depth player, seems arbitrary and capricious.
LittleSnake
Super Sub
I dont buy this for one second, sorry. We've had a great system in place for atleast the last decade which was passed on by the Stewart, Menzies, Lyon days.
This is precisely why the calls for turbo to shift from fullback are crazy. Every fullback before him has mentored a custodian from the wing for a year or two and the baton has passed. Lehi still needs time to cook.
Our 7 directs the flow and the 5/8 is his foil. Second rowers defend the halves and weak links - We've always relied on strong defensive second rowers when having success. This is our system.
This is especially evident by the role that our fullback has played aswell as our halves for the last decade plus. There is a manly system and there is a reason We've polished stones into quartz. The weakness has been injury and support staff/coaches in my opinion. And Trent barret.
This is precisely why the calls for turbo to shift from fullback are crazy. Every fullback before him has mentored a custodian from the wing for a year or two and the baton has passed. Lehi still needs time to cook.
Our 7 directs the flow and the 5/8 is his foil. Second rowers defend the halves and weak links - We've always relied on strong defensive second rowers when having success. This is our system.
This is especially evident by the role that our fullback has played aswell as our halves for the last decade plus. There is a manly system and there is a reason We've polished stones into quartz. The weakness has been injury and support staff/coaches in my opinion. And Trent barret.
LeonardCohen
Bencher
Honestly, that image...hours later and I'm still speechless!
Your sound of silence is still ringing in my ears feathered friend 🙂
One thing I mean in the context of systems is all of the grades playing the same style of football with the same attacking and defending structures so that when players step up into the next grade the transition is much smoother and they know their role. Whilst there is still a level of adjustment playing with the big boys it is mitigated. The young Penrith side in the trial for the most looked to be playing to the same systems and with the same level of intensity, line speed and discipline as the firsts, until the second half when they make a few errors. The separation between Manly and the Blacktown Workers made that very difficult and I hope we can apply the same consistency now between our NSW Cup and First Grade squads.
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