Story: Storm brewing as Melbourne rewrite history

This is what I mean about you missing the point of ‘traditional league values’. Everyone knows the history of how league was born, namely because working class rugby players who got injured playing the game couldn’t feed their families, unlike the more high-born rugby players who had private incomes.

From these beginnings there naturally sprang the usual working class egalitarian sentiments. Hence the outrage at the massive scale of the systematic rorting by the club owned by the notorious billionaire corporation, which already enjoyed so many advantages.

I know you enjoy the pure excellence of the roster they put together but I’d say many if not most traditional league fans enjoyed 40-nil, not only Manly fans, and fans of most clubs were disgusted when they learned of the Storm’s unparalleled level of deliberate cheating. I certainly was.
I enjoyed the 40 nil more in the moment but i respect the performances more of the 2011 and 2013 efforts along with even parts of 2014 with a team playing beyond itself and should never have been in the top 4.(The senior playing group really did an amazing job in 2013 and 2014 with broken down bodies and a weak forward pack)
 
The cap and draft in this country are legal and although untested in a specific sense there is enough individual precedent (plus a common belief by the legal community ) that both would satisfy the provisions of the Trade Practices Act.

The failure of the league bosses to win their draft case was down to a failure by the administrators to draft the rule properly and the court suggested they could easily comply with the law with some changes but there was no real drive in the rugby league world to continue with it unlike the acceptance within the AFL community that it was good for the game - and the players association agreeing to it.

You are right. The cap is not illegal and nor should it be under our law. Melbourne breached the rules in the most organised and.systemic salary cap breach in Australian sporting history and should pay the price. Saying others did it and the cap “ should” be illegal is totally irrelevant and is the usual feeble retort provided by those caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Plus they are a pack of filthy lying wrestling c..ts
Fact is the draft was tested and failed, the court offering "suggestions" doesn't mean anything until such "suggestions" are tested.

Agree to disagree about the cap, it should be illegal, all that is required by law is a minimum wage to be met.

Now if the NRL owned the clubs then they have every right to limit expenditure like any other company budgeting the books, i'm sure there is a workaround for this in the contract signed by each club to play in the NRL.

So coaches contracts and other off field staff are only limited by the amount each club is willing to pay while the players who are the most important part fit within a cap that has more restraints.

Yes i know the NRL are looking into the off field budgets etc but to me the good of game excuse is weak at best.

Let the strongest survive and flourish bringing others up and the few who can't compete die, there are too many NRL clubs anyway and they are just eating themselves alive.(is that good for the game)

Some clubs will get themselves into strife, some will struggle and just make ends meet and some will flourish, it is the same now under a cap that just slows down progress.
 
I was a commercial and litigation lawyer in an earlier life and still maintain contact with a lot of former colleagues, a few involved in the game itself, and i can tell you with absolute certainty that the universal consensus in legal circles is that the cap and AFL draft are legal under The Trade Practices Act and the court clearly stated that the earlier decision against the draft was based on the particular framing of the draft and openly recommended they submit a new version which would allow it to prevail. The courts objections were about individual contract issues in the case in question and wether a player was currently contracted or not at the time of the draft etc,not the long term legality of a draft.

Do you seriously think in this money dominated world with class actions a daily occurrence it would not have been challenged by someone if there was a chance of success.Without being too detailed for the provisions to be legal they need to meet three criteria around public interest and other issues and those criteria are generally believed to be clearly met by the governing bodies, hence no challenge.

Stick to your player analysis where you claim to have some idea. You have no idea about the issue. It’s as simple as that .

And who gives a toss if the legal eagle TC thinks the cap should be illegal. The cap was operating at the time , Waldron and his willing Stooges were running a clear long term multilevel operation in breach of it , their cleanskin captain had two contracts tucked under his bed, GI was asail on the high seas and the Storm were caught red handed in the largest and longest rort in history.What s joke defence “ I think it should be illegal so that makes it all good” . Welcome to a world of anarchy!Those are the irrefutable facts... **** the Storm !
 
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Fact is the draft was tested and failed, the court offering "suggestions" doesn't mean anything until such "suggestions" are tested.

Agree to disagree about the cap, it should be illegal, all that is required by law is a minimum wage to be met.

Now if the NRL owned the clubs then they have every right to limit expenditure like any other company budgeting the books, i'm sure there is a workaround for this in the contract signed by each club to play in the NRL.

So coaches contracts and other off field staff are only limited by the amount each club is willing to pay while the players who are the most important part fit within a cap that has more restraints.

Yes i know the NRL are looking into the off field budgets etc but to me the good of game excuse is weak at best.

Let the strongest survive and flourish bringing others up and the few who can't compete die, there are too many NRL clubs anyway and they are just eating themselves alive.(is that good for the game)

Some clubs will get themselves into strife, some will struggle and just make ends meet and some will flourish, it is the same now under a cap that just slows down progress.

Agh the old let the strong survive argument! Great idea. Let the strong survive. In the last decade or so Cronulla, Manly , Newcastle , Penrith , Gold Coast ,West Tigers , Souths, Cowboys have all come close to extinction and Norths , Wests and Illawarra have folded or become weaker hybrids.. Even wealthy clubs like Parra and Canterbury with hopeless administrators have only been saved by unhappy rich leagues clubs paying their bills.Souths went broke because Souths juniors had enough .Fact is without the NRL grant most would be broke tomorrow. You might have missed it but most games struggle to get 10 or 12 thousand through the gates and that’s with tribalism which your idea destroys.

Six or eight team comp where everyone plays each other four times or we create new entities with no loyal support out of nothing to make a comp which no one cares about.. Im sure the broadcasters would love it. 2 billion dollar games becomes a 500 mill dollar game with hundreds of thousands of tribal supporters abandoning it. True genius.
So easy to say ... fact is it don’t work and it’s rubbish and everyone knows it.

Stick to coaching in your lounge room.
 
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Agh the old let the strong survive argument! Great idea. Let the strong survive. In the last decade or so Cronulla, Manly , Newcastle , Penrith , Gold Coast ,West Tigers , Souths, Cowboys have all come close to extinction and Norths , Wests and Illawarra have folded or become weaker hybrids.. Even wealthy clubs like Parra and Canterbury with hopeless administrators have only been saved by unhappy rich leagues clubs paying their bills.Souths went broke because Souths juniors had enough .Fact is without the NRL grant most would be broke tomorrow. You might have missed it but most games struggle to get 10 or 12 thousand through the gates and that’s with tribalism which your idea destroys.

Six or eight team comp where everyone plays each other four times or we create new entities with no loyal support out of nothing to make a comp which no one cares about.. Im sure the broadcasters would love it. 2 billion dollar games becomes a 500 mill dollar game with hundreds of thousands of tribal supporters abandoning it. True genius.
So easy to say ... fact is it don’t work and it’s rubbish and everyone knows it.

Stick to coaching in your lounge room.
The ARL and now NRL have had plenty of time to make the current small city tribal support system work and all that they have achieved is stagnation at best for the most part with big one city teams and double headers propping up the crowd averages.

Where did i say anything negative about the "NRL Grant", the clubs generated that money by providing the "product" to sell and should receive it back.

The NRL have structured and focused the promotion of the game to flourish on Free to air tv and Pay TV at the expense of bringing people to the game,(night games and poor time slots) not even promoting the benefits and atmosphere of being at the ground, or fostering this kind of support as well as the AFL decades ago.(now playing catch up)

The ARL administrators were lazy and stuck in the pokie machine funded model to the detriment of the game. Manly basically went broke with such a system propping up the best team in the comp at the wrong time during the Superleague War.

With the fastest and percentage wise largest uptake of Pay TV at the time reducing crowd numbers and bringing less fans into the leagues club it was a recipe for disaster. Manly in the 90's was run very poorly to say the least and deserved everything they got. Remember Manly went broke even with a cap (not all years had a cap i recall in the 90's i think though) so it is not some magical savior.

Not against tribalism and it can work but there are far too many weak ass administrators in the NRL and at clubs (probably half wouldn't make it in the real business world and third rate wannabes) to make it work.

League can ride a slow death at best stagnating or let a free for all system flourish to speed up a national game. Don't be blinded in the dooms day thinking that a free for all will automatically lead to a heap of clubs folding, it might even drag "some" clubs up.(i'm actually optimistic Manly can flourish in such a system, i wouldn't of been in the 90's though)

All a cap does is make all teams feel identical, lacking a different identity and culture to flourish, just a different coloured shirt filling up a time slot.

Manly are on the right path now being one of the first to not rely on a Leagues Club and privatise, through struggles and almost folding it forced change towards a more healthy direction.

The NRL need to change focus, stop being one track minded in focusing on tv revenue as the be all and end all. Slowly reduce the constraints of a cap to speed up either a different business model or speed up poorly run teams to fold by the strongest will survive mentality. In the background during this period direct money in promoting/help subsidize expansion team options to have a foundation ready to quickly step in when some clubs fold.
 
I was a commercial and litigation lawyer in an earlier life and still maintain contact with a lot of former colleagues, a few involved in the game itself, and i can tell you with absolute certainty that the universal consensus in legal circles is that the cap and AFL draft are legal under The Trade Practices Act and the court clearly stated that the earlier decision against the draft was based on the particular framing of the draft and openly recommended they submit a new version which would allow it to prevail. The courts objections were about individual contract issues in the case in question and wether a player was currently contracted or not at the time of the draft etc,not the long term legality of a draft.

Do you seriously think in this money dominated world with class actions a daily occurrence it would not have been challenged by someone if there was a chance of success.Without being too detailed for the provisions to be legal they need to meet three criteria around public interest and other issues and those criteria are generally believed to be clearly met by the governing bodies, hence no challenge.

Stick to your player analysis where you claim to have some idea. You have no idea about the issue. It’s as simple as that .

And who gives a toss if the legal eagle TC thinks the cap should be illegal. The cap was operating at the time , Waldron and his willing Stooges were running a clear long term multilevel operation in breach of it , their cleanskin captain had two contracts tucked under his bed, GI was asail on the high seas and the Storm were caught red handed in the largest and longest rort in history.What s joke defence “ I think it should be illegal so that makes it all good” . Welcome to a world of anarchy!Those are the irrefutable facts... **** the Storm !
I'm sure many people for a variety of reasons don't wish to go to court and many have nothing to do with "i don't think i stand a chance of winning" and more to do with time and not wanting media pressure hounding over a prolonged period.

Did i ever state i am a Legal Eagle, i'm entitled to have an opinion and i never stated my opinions are fact i just strongly voice my angle(with reasoning) and people can take it or leave it.

The only facts are that the "draft" element was challenged in it's time and it failed under a "restraint of trade".(and we are not debating the draft element anyway, no idea why you keep harping on about this)

The Cap element will be much harder for the NRL to fight for in court unless the NRL in their contracts offered to clubs to play in the competition have a water tight workaround which is much harder to achieve than you might think that needs to incorporate rights of the individual also i would think.
 
Manly-Warringah never went ‘broke’. They were certainly enduring financial hardship by the late 1990s, courtesy of the Superleague War, with probably the final straw being the non-payment of a grant from Optus to the ARL-aligned clubs in 1999. Hence the failed joint venture with Norths, who were broke by then.

The difference between the two clubs back then was that Manly under Frank Stanton knew they had to shed players to stay afloat, whilst Norths tried to hang on to everybody; hoping that the new Gosford stadium and the Central Coast move would act as their saviour.

Perhaps the club could have tried some of the initiatives (like some private ownership) that came later prior to the merger, but that’s water under the bridge now. I would prefer to think that Stanton and Fulton did a good job under the circumstances.
 
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Butterfly effect is more unpredictable and coincidental, knock on effect is more logical and predictable.

Manly/Nth Eagles let go of a raw young talent in Orford to Melb who can see potential at a reasonable price point, Manly/Nth Eagles end up paying big for an established first grade half in Kimmorley.

Manly then purchase a more polished version of Orford from Melbourne to achieve the next level of success on big Money, leads to Melb promoting Cronk who goes on to win the Dally M half of the year in his first full year at halfback in 2006(and not on big Money compared to Orford who they wanted to keep) and dominates the game with his thorough approach to the intricacies of the game for the next decade.

Manly get a few good years out of Orford, Melb achieve over a decade of success under Cronk. Initially seen as just a cheap work in progress back up option ended up becoming one of the most sort after halves in the game on big coin.

If Manly didn't sign Orford, Cronk would not have surfaced until around 2009/2010 if at all, might have been lost to the game by then or playing elsewhere.

I have big doubts the salary cap scandal would ever have made the light of day, Melb would of achieved success but not in the same dominant fashion leading to exceeding the cap by less and a more slap on the wrist fine.

Melb retaining Orford would in my opinion have lead to Melb winning in 07 with half a chance of winning again in 08 but probably bowing out in the Semi's. Manly would of struggled to reach the GF with Monas at 7 not being a sharp enough option to easily make the top 4. (I was a big fan of Monas composed ball playing and leadership just lacked that sharp take on the line element)

Bellamy and Hasler in the coaching stakes were so far ahead of the pack it wouldn't of surprised me if Manly and Melb still played out the GF in both these years without changing halves.

Now can you please stop sending me messages begging me to hire you as my ghost writer who can edit my technical dribble in line with your impeccable grammar standards, i'm fully aware of my limitations but i have better things to spend my disposable income on than raising your standard of living.

What a load of drivel. You just perfectly gave an example of a "knock- on effect" and once again self-bloated your own ego by making up more ****.

Just another guy that makes up buII**** and then spends weeks defending it.

Give us a break oh great self-interested one.
 
The ARL and now NRL have had plenty of time to make the current small city tribal support system work and all that they have achieved is stagnation at best for the most part with big one city teams and double headers propping up the crowd averages.

Where did i say anything negative about the "NRL Grant", the clubs generated that money by providing the "product" to sell and should receive it back.

The NRL have structured and focused the promotion of the game to flourish on Free to air tv and Pay TV at the expense of bringing people to the game,(night games and poor time slots) not even promoting the benefits and atmosphere of being at the ground, or fostering this kind of support as well as the AFL decades ago.(now playing catch up)

The ARL administrators were lazy and stuck in the pokie machine funded model to the detriment of the game. Manly basically went broke with such a system propping up the best team in the comp at the wrong time during the Superleague War.

With the fastest and percentage wise largest uptake of Pay TV at the time reducing crowd numbers and bringing less fans into the leagues club it was a recipe for disaster. Manly in the 90's was run very poorly to say the least and deserved everything they got. Remember Manly went broke even with a cap (not all years had a cap i recall in the 90's i think though) so it is not some magical savior.

Not against tribalism and it can work but there are far too many weak ass administrators in the NRL and at clubs (probably half wouldn't make it in the real business world and third rate wannabes) to make it work.

League can ride a slow death at best stagnating or let a free for all system flourish to speed up a national game. Don't be blinded in the dooms day thinking that a free for all will automatically lead to a heap of clubs folding, it might even drag "some" clubs up.(i'm actually optimistic Manly can flourish in such a system, i wouldn't of been in the 90's though)

All a cap does is make all teams feel identical, lacking a different identity and culture to flourish, just a different coloured shirt filling up a time slot.

Manly are on the right path now being one of the first to not rely on a Leagues Club and privatise, through struggles and almost folding it forced change towards a more healthy direction.

The NRL need to change focus, stop being one track minded in focusing on tv revenue as the be all and end all. Slowly reduce the constraints of a cap to speed up either a different business model or speed up poorly run teams to fold by the strongest will survive mentality. In the background during this period direct money in promoting/help subsidize expansion team options to have a foundation ready to quickly step in when some clubs fold.
I don’t want any big city teams.

I only want suburban teams and I’m happy with 15k crowds. I would love to play wests or norths again. Or newtown.

The broncos and storm are fake.
 
What a load of drivel. You just perfectly gave an example of a "knock- on effect" and once again self-bloated your own ego by making up more ****.

Just another guy that makes up buII**** and then spends weeks defending it.

Give us a break oh great self-interested one.
You just have no idea what the difference is, knock on effect is basically the domino effect and has more direct predictable outcomes.

Seems like it is back to school for you or do some Google research before you start elevating yourself in the future.
 
I don’t want any big city teams.

I only want suburban teams and I’m happy with 15k crowds. I would love to play wests or norths again. Or newtown.

The broncos and storm are fake.
I agree with you in some respects, i love the tribal rivalry but the game will have a slow death if people don't get to the games or revenue doesn't increase at a faster rate which is limited to TV rights.

Would be selfish to love the game to death on what we loved in the past.

If the game in its current form is going to survive we have to move away from being overly reliant on TV rights and control time-slots more (more day games) which creates a more community, family based, tribal feel on game day that is more attractive to attend and can lead to bringing in more first timers to enjoy the spectacle.

The move away from being overly reliant on tv rights will force clubs to be more creative and open themselves to more revenue stream possibilities which will hold the game up well in the future.
 
What a load of drivel. You just perfectly gave an example of a "knock- on effect" and once again self-bloated your own ego by making up more ****.

Just another guy that makes up buII**** and then spends weeks defending it.

Give us a break oh great self-interested one.
You keep instigating and digging a hole for yourself so i am more inclined to keep defending myself under such a fun environment.

Stop instigating and stick with the footy chat and you might finally wean yourself off the Prozac.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/71fdnz/eli5whats_the_difference_between_the_butterfly/
A domino effect? Really?
More drivel.

I even underlined the REALLY important part for the bombastic among us.@:cool:

knock-on effect

noun [URL='https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/help/codes.html'][ C usually singular ]
mainly uk UK /ˈnɒk.ɒn ɪˌfekt/ US /ˈnɑːk.ɑːn ɪˌfekt/
event or situation has aknock-on effect, it causes other eventsor situations, but not directly
[/URL]
 
Why are you are you comparing the butterfly effect to the domino effect? We already proved that a knock-on effect is totally different to a domino effect. It's bed time for you 5 year old.
No the knock on effect and domino effect are very similar and sometimes interchangeable.

Butterfly effect is more fluid with less predictability, tiny events/changes that lead to big unpredictable changes downstream.
 

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