Some thoughts

[Duff]

I think MM stood Matas sister up for the yr12 formal.
That's all I can think of.

 

[ManlyBacker]

The only time we are seeing the centres and wings is running out on tackles 1 & 2, on the few occasions of broken play and on bombs. For them to be effective we need more 2nd phase play through offloads by the forwards and better ball distribution by the halves. 3 games in and we have been poor in those two areas but are starting to improve. Lyon and Bell are two of the most potent weapons any team could hope to have but they aren't getting the opportunities. When it clicks we are going to absolutely murder a top team this year. This is the best we have had this decade.

 

[DSM5]

Bell and Lyon have been quiet. I'm hoping that Lyon is working himself into us. and I agree with Mata's analysis St Monas gets shut down way to easily before the outside backs get going. Robbo is going great imo.

 

[Nutzcraw]

I think Robbo has been one of the best buys over the last few years.

 

[domdom]

manlybacker - you are right on the money mate. neither monas or burns have the passing game yet to fully utilise the backline, hence lyon and bell having quiet games.

it wasnt until monas switched to short passes that we started getting some results in attack.

burns is still learning the game, so i think he'll make a great 6 if given time. when ox gets back, i'm happy to keep burns in 6, and monas back to hooker.

when matai gets back, it will then get tricky. i dont see why some people here want him in the PL, he was one of our best players last season and an international to boot. sure, he missed an important tackle or two last season, but i can remeber choc doing the same as well.

matai sure would be handy against a physical team like the warriors this weekend!

 

[Matabele]

well mata, rather than making a 1 liner like that, come back at me with the area of the game Burns outperfroms Monghan as a 5/8.

I dont enter the forum with a closed mind so will read and take on board what you put on the table

The prevailing wisdom of many seems to be that they (Monaghan and Burns) are of similar ability. there may not be much between them but this is why I think Burns is the better five eighth.

1. He is a better defender. Last year he was the top-tackling back in the NRL? In contrast Monaghan has a history of misses.
2. It is quickly forgotten that Monaghan had first crack at the number 6 jumper last year and it was a disaster. He was constantly crowding and cramping Orford and they did not complemet each other.
3. When Burns came in his style of play complemented Orford to a greater degree and they establshed a succesful partnership that took us to the finals.
4. Monaghan is late 20s and has played over 100 games. what you see is what you get. Burns is young and relatively inexperienced. He is a work in progress and has improvement in him.
5. Burns was in demand at the end of last year and will be again this year. We can't get rid of Monaghan. there has to be something in that.

 

[Matabele]

C'mon Mr Bahramewe

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Greetings Mata, sorry for the delay in reply, unfortunatly my job doesnt give me a chance to get infront of a computer till late afternoon

I would contest point number 1, i think Monaghan is a far better defender than Burns. Those stats would surprise me for last year, what exactly were they measuring ? Tackles made, or success/failure percentage ? I just recall several times last year, the Newcastle semi i think coming to mind, where he was out of position and they went through that gap, which may or may not be recorded, and people going over the top of him, similar to Matais shortcoming in that area.

I will concede point 2, as i dont really recall Monaghan playing the 5/8 role. Although at that point in time the whole side was getting to know Orfords play and it wasnt really clicking. Now they may or may not be more comfortable around each other

Point 3, another fair call. However how much of that combination was Orford dragging us through on his own in the playmaking department ? Can't be judged so once again concede that point

4. That is all true, but i am talking about in this current point in time. In terms of attack and general play kicking, i have Monaghan miles ahead of Burns in those areas. Monaghans short passing game, and combination with Watmough in particular has been very impressive the past 2 weeks, and his kicking game, in particular the attacking side of it inside the 20, would be valubale for giving us 2 very good kicking options, making it harder for opposition to shut down as Burns doesnt possess that part of his game yet.
You are right regarding the improvement left in Burns, however i feel he will turn into a hooker in the years ahead. I may be proven wrong, but i just dont see some of the natural skills a 5/8 needs to be near the top. His running game is very good though

5 is a debatable point to me. a younger player will always be in more demand than a senior bloke. Remember that bloke plenty of teams were interested in years ago, and we went to court with souths over, Rennie i think it was, where is he now ? There may not be much interest shown in Monaghan now, but i would assume at 22-23 he would have had a lot more shown

There you go mate, dissect and pick the bones out of that lot

 

[Matabele]

I agree with you KE that Monas short kicking game in recent weeks has been good, though this has not always been the case. One of the prime reasons for the purchase of Orford was because he can keep the ball in the end zone, gain repeat sets and build pressure.

However, Burns is also very poor when it comes to rolling the ball over the dead ball line, so we probably really need to see Orford back for that.

I think Monas long kicking game is poor. He seems to be striving too hard for effect and the ball is not coming offf the sweet spot. Hence no distance and often down the fullback's throat (esp against the Tigers). Burns is better at finding open space but he often kicks too long.

A lot of noise was made about Burn's tackling last year because the commentators were saying he was acting as an extra back rower. Can Fluffy enlighten us on the tackle stats? Burns was in the Top 10 for ALL players at one point.

Monaghan missed 5 against the Tigers so it's optimistic to say he's perfect in defence.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

I guess the impression i get about Monas defense is due to his kick chase 1 on 1 tackle, which is outstanding IMO, and also seeing him bring down the big forwards in the pack, suppose there are different things involved in the different positions on the park where things are exposed

Agree with you that both Monas and Burns long kicking games have been below par the past couple of weeks, neither have a long kick from that position.

Interested in your and others wiews on Burns long term

In 5-7 years, will he be a better 5/8 or Hooker ? I lean towards hooker at this point, although he would be an adequate 5/8, dont know if he will develop into a top line 5/8

 

[Matabele]

I don't think he'll be a top line 5/8th either. An adequate one maybe, but not Origin material.

 

[Utility Player]

I wonder given the current push for centres to play 5/8 how Matai would go there, not now but perhaps in a few years time.

 

[earl]

I wonder given the current push for centres to play 5/8 how Matai would go there, not now but perhaps in a few years time.

I just dont think Mattai has the ball skills to be a 5/8 , but on the other hand , i wouldnt swap Englis from centre to 5/8 or Lyon.
Just what is a 5/8 these days and what job are they required to do? Thats the question , as i think the job description has changed alot.
Also depends on what sort of quality your half back is.

 

[DSM5]

Matai just doesn't read the game imo. Persist with Burns at 5/8 and he will develop. Someone has whispered in his ear about his tackling style, it's altered, and the penalties have stopped. He's coachable.

 

[Fluffy]

burns made 599 and missed 82
averaged 27.23 per game missing 3.73
an effectiveness of 88%
15 errors

Monas made 548 and missed 63
averaged 23.83 per game missing 2.74
an effectiveness of 90%
9 errors

So both are good defenders
orford made 318 @ 80% and dunley 310 @ 86% for comparison of the little men

 

[earl]

burns made 599 and missed 82
averaged 27.23 per game missing 3.73
an effectiveness of 88%
15 errors

Monas made 548 and missed 63
averaged 23.83 per game missing 2.74
an effectiveness of 90%
9 errors

So both are good defenders
orford made 318 @ 80% and dunley 310 @ 86% for comparison of the little men

Your a Stat Man,
Be bop bop budda bop.

 

[Matabele]

How often does a five eighth out tackle a hooker over a season?

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Good work fellas, we have some footy talk happening in here !

I am a Matai fan, but in no way is he a 5/8. His role is as a hard runner really, trying to play a bruising game rather than a subtle game, If any of the centres move to 5/8, Lyon easily

Interesting stats fluffy, thanks for those. Must admit through all the talk about his defense, i felt it was a bit over-rated but that seems to stack up, must have just had a couple of bad games that stuck in my mind

I suppose Mata you will never see it happen with an 80 min hooker, but with the statue of Burns, and Des' insistance last season on Dunley and Monaghan playing 40 each that is how that occurs

In answer to earl, i suppose it depends on what sort of squad you have. In a superstar team such as the Storm, the 5/8 role doesnt need to be a ball player creating play, coz they have so many guns, whereas in a side like Canberra last season, with very few guns, the clever ball playing 5/8 in Smith was gold for them

As for our style, i think we are somewhere in the middle of those, with our 5/8 definitely still needing to be able to set up a play or 2 with the mits

 

[earl]

Good work fellas, we have some footy talk happening in here !

I am a Matai fan, but in no way is he a 5/8. His role is as a hard runner really, trying to play a bruising game rather than a subtle game, If any of the centres move to 5/8, Lyon easily

Interesting stats fluffy, thanks for those. Must admit through all the talk about his defense, i felt it was a bit over-rated but that seems to stack up, must have just had a couple of bad games that stuck in my mind

I suppose Mata you will never see it happen with an 80 min hooker, but with the statue of Burns, and Des' insistance last season on Dunley and Monaghan playing 40 each that is how that occurs

In answer to earl, i suppose it depends on what sort of squad you have. In a superstar team such as the Storm, the 5/8 role doesnt need to be a ball player creating play, coz they have so many guns, whereas in a side like Canberra last season, with very few guns, the clever ball playing 5/8 in Smith was gold for them
As for our style, i think we are somewhere in the middle of those, with our 5/8 definitely still needing to be able to set up a play or 2 with the mits

Thats sort of the point I was trying to make , but didnt do a very good job at. :doh:
With the Broncos , they dont have a great 1/2 so Lockyer at 5/8 is the main man.
At Drugcastle they have a genius 1/2 so the 5/8 isnt reqiured to do a great deal.
When we get Orford in , our 5/8 wont be required to carry the side too much and be more free to run the ball or just give to Lyon and watch him score. :dance: :dance:

 

[Matabele]

Coversely, you look at the Tigers at the moment with three creative players in Farrah, Morris and Marshall and they seem to be forever getting in each other's way. Their attack is not flowing.