So far off the pace

[LeonardCohen]

I respect your perspective on this about Garrick, but it is perspective.

I've noticed this a lot over the years with how we all interpret information, that when a player is identified with a particular quality or lack of, it starts off as noted isolated incidents, anecdotal so to speak, and then others pay more attention to that player's actions. Get mud thrown at you and it sticks, even if unwarranted or not as significant as implied.

We are all biased in certain ways, usually without realising it. If we or others make an assumption about certain characteristics, our attention gravitates to that person's actions and our critical analysis is far more focused on that person's actions than on others. Others may have just as significant characteristics but if its not brought to our immediate attention, we will tend to overlook those same characteristics in others. We make judgement calls and once its made public it sticks.

The comment about reading the play is such a example. If we believe there's a problem we will confirm it in our mind by looking for it. Yet no one is saying Koula reads the play poorly, despite a statistically poorer defensive percentage. This doesn't mean there isn't an issue. There may very well be. However our natural biases will discriminate when we convince ourselves there is an issue in one player. This is why stats, though not telling the full story, do tell a more accurate story.

Kinda like your bias towards the tackle efficiency statistic; you posted it so anything to contrary is conjecture, rather than a valid point. Garrick is one of my top 3 players at Manly and I think he is an excellent attacking centre but there's a reason so many people on the forum are up in arms about his defence, and that's because it was dreadful at times last year. On other occasions, he was very good. I think it might be worth persisting but to use a tackle efficiency statistic to suggest that it proves he is the best defensive centre at the club is rubbish, no matter which way you look at it. Why? Because there's so much more to defending at centre than simply making a tackle.

Your paradoxical take on logic, strikes again.

 

[Bearfax]

Probably due to all the tries we witnessed being scored down his edge.

Is that a statistically valid analysis or is it perspective? I don't have that data so I rely on you to produce it to confirm your assessment.

 

[Bearfax]

Kinda like your bias towards the tackle efficiency statistic; you posted it so anything to contrary is conjecture, rather than a valid point. Garrick is one of my top 3 players at Manly and I think he is an excellent attacking centre but there's a reason so many people on the forum are up in arms about his defence, and that's because it was dreadful at times last year. On other occasions, he was very good. I think it might be worth persisting but to use a tackle efficiency statistic to suggest that it proves he is the best defensive centre at the club is rubbish, no matter which way you look at it. Why? Because there's so much more to defending at centre than simply making a tackle.

Your paradoxical take on logic, strikes again.

Leonard do you really think perspective is superior to stats. I'm not suggesting they tell the full story but they offer a far more accurate picture than unsupported perspective. You did notice that in the US for example every major sport relies on stats to determine the worth of players. I'm being the exact opposite here of bias by supplying data, not personal perspective based on just what I see.. Everyone has different perspectives as is noted on this site. I might have a personal perspective but I was taught long ago to ignore personal leanings and allow the evidence available to you to lead you. Fundamental scientific analysis. That is where logic rests, not in conjecture unsupported by verifiable evidence.

 

[Phobia]

For those who want statistics...

Out of players who spent most of their time in the centres in 2024, Garrick conceded the second most line breaks, and the second most tries. I've crossed out the players who spent the majority of their time playing in other positions.

Talagi spent most of his time at centre, but not the majority, so if you discount him, Garrick outright concedes the most tries and line breaks in the competition for centres.

 

[Dion Johnson]

there's a reason so many people on the forum are up in arms about his defence, and that's because it was dreadful at times last year

It wasn’t isolated to people just on the forum calling out his defence, several podcasts highlighted their concerns with him at centre.

Then one of the best playmakers to play the game (Joey John’s) wrote an article before the semi finals, which simply put was aim your attack at Garrick.

He can tackle, the problem I see with him is he doesn’t read the attack and becomes a liability jamming in with his inside shoulder a large percentage of the time.

See which direction the coaches go after the offseason with the back five.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Leonard do you really think perspective is superior to stats. I'm not suggesting they tell the full story but they offer a far more accurate picture than unsupported perspective. You did notice that in the US for example every major sport relies on stats to determine the worth of players. I'm being the exact opposite here of bias by supplying data, not personal perspective based on just what I see.. Everyone has different perspectives as is noted on this site. I might have a personal perspective but I was taught long ago to ignore personal leanings and allow the evidence available to you to lead you. Fundamental scientific analysis. That is where logic rests, not in conjecture unsupported by verifiable evidence.

I just had to use my eyes and my brain to figure it out.

 

[CRPSI eagle]

don’t understand why people continue to defend Garrick and make out he is a good centre. We will never win anything while he is in the side winger or centre.

 

[mave]

Stats, perspective.....whatever.

Last contract time, there were seemingly demands made/ ot guarantees made, depending on who you believe, about what position Garrick would play in 2024.

Fans are frustrated cause initially we had weakened 2 positions with this change. Not much happened through the year to change my initial thought on this either. He is the best winger at the club, but not in the top 2 centres.

Garrick himself should be frustrated. He is an elite finishing winger, had improved dramatically in other aspects of his game , and IMO, was a smokey for SOO going forward, especially before Lomaxs rebirth on a wing. That ship has probably sailed now unfortunately.


Madness all around, along with a very healthy dose of blind stubbornness.

 

[Stewbojevic]

Stats, perspective.....whatever.

Last contract time, there were seemingly demands made/ ot guarantees made, depending on who you believe, about what position Garrick would play in 2024.

Fans are frustrated cause initially we had weakened 2 positions with this change. Not much happened through the year to change my initial thought on this either. He is the best winger at the club, but not in the top 2 centres.

Garrick himself should be frustrated. He is an elite finishing winger, had improved dramatically in other aspects of his game , and IMO, was a smokey for SOO going forward, especially before Lomaxs rebirth on a wing. That ship has probably sailed now unfortunately.


Madness all around, along with a very healthy dose of blind stubbornness.

Good summary!

I’m torn about what the best mix of our backline is though. Lehi has to be there and I think he is most suited to wing or fullback. And we’re not moving Turbo. It’s going to be a hard decision on who gets left out.

 

[Bearfax]

For those who want statistics...

Out of players who spent most of their time in the centres in 2024, Garrick conceded the second most line breaks, and the second most tries. I've crossed out the players who spent the majority of their time playing in other positions.

Talagi spent most of his time at centre, but not the majority, so if you discount him, Garrick outright concedes the most tries and line breaks in the competition for centres.

View attachment 28672
View attachment 28673

OK Phobia, now you have my attention. I assume these stats are from a reliable source, but if so, then I acknowledge this says something about Garrick's defense, though note Garrick played a few times at full back which is not a good position to defend. However you've introduced evidence that I accept does imply a fault in his play. Be interested in the huge difference in defensive requirements he had vs Koula who had half his tackles per game. Maybe teams focused on Garrick's side for the reason you've pointed out. Good to see evidence rather than conjecture being used. Thanks for the information. It is worthy of condieration

 

[Bearfax]

I just had to use my eyes and my brain to figure out.

That implies you know better than others who challenge your position Leonard with their own conjecture, perception, interpretation of what they are seeing and how they see it. I didn't realise you were infallible.

 

[Bearfax]

Stats, perspective.....whatever.

Last contract time, there were seemingly demands made/ ot guarantees made, depending on who you believe, about what position Garrick would play in 2024.

Fans are frustrated cause initially we had weakened 2 positions with this change. Not much happened through the year to change my initial thought on this either. He is the best winger at the club, but not in the top 2 centres.

Garrick himself should be frustrated. He is an elite finishing winger, had improved dramatically in other aspects of his game , and IMO, was a smokey for SOO going forward, especially before Lomaxs rebirth on a wing. That ship has probably sailed now unfortunately.


Madness all around, along with a very healthy dose of blind stubbornness.

Seem to forget that Garrick played in the Australian X111 only a few months ago, so I doubt the ship has sailed. Obviously some who know the game well, recognise his worth, despite his apparent weaknesses at centre as well pointed out by Phobia.

 

[silvereagle]

OK Phobia, now you have my attention. I assume these stats are from a reliable source, but if so, then I acknowledge this says something about Garrick's defense, though note Garrick played a few times at full back which is not a good position to defend. However you've introduced evidence that I accept does imply a fault in his play. Be interested in the huge difference in defensive requirements he had vs Koula who had half his tackles per game. Maybe teams focused on Garrick's side for the reason you've pointed out. Good to see evidence rather than conjecture being used. Thanks for the information. It is worthy of condieration

Bear there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that Reuben had / has serious defensive issues out wide. Just from watching the games. The more intriguing question in my mind is what Seibold will do about it for next year. Persevere? Change? I would definitely go the latter ala Zac Lomax and shift him out to wing where I think he is far better suited. I would also bring Turbo in as his centre partner. I thought Turbo looked really good there for Australia both in attack and defence. Might even preserve his longevity given far less workload. Lehi straight to fullback. Tolu and Saab on the other side. That to me is a serious and solid premiership winning backline.

 

[Pete W]

Bear there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that Reuben had / has serious defensive issues out wide. Just from watching the games. The more intriguing question in my mind is what Seibold will do about it for next year. Persevere? Change? I would definitely go the latter ala Zac Lomax and shift him out to wing where I think he is far better suited. I would also bring Turbo in as his centre partner. I thought Turbo looked really good there for Australia both in attack and defence. Might even preserve his longevity given far less workload. Lehi straight to fullback. Tolu and Saab on the other side. That to me is a serious and solid premiership winning backline.

Agreed. I would even consider putting Talau at left centre and Koula as our super sub weapon at 14 to come on and tear through the middle as games open up. Tolu struggles to get involved at centre for the most part, but I think would be a game changer coming off the bench.

A left edge of Brooks, Ola'akautu, Talau and Saab looks threatening and balanced, and a right edge of Chez, Bateman*, Turbo and Garrick equally so, and with the youthful Lehi at the back, will turn this squad into a serious contender.

If then the hooking and middle forward rotation is re-arranged slightly to promote more creativity and leg speed, then I truly believe there is line up in there somewhere that could really push the best come finals time

 

[mave]

Seem to forget that Garrick played in the Australian X111 only a few months ago, so I doubt the ship has sailed. Obviously some who know the game well, recognise his worth, despite his apparent weaknesses at centre as well pointed out by Phobia.

I'm glad you mention that game.

Another example of some dreadful defence in the centres, if we needed one.

 

[silvereagle]

Agreed. I would even consider putting Talau at left centre and Koula as our super sub weapon at 14 to come on and tear through the middle as games open up. Tolu struggles to get involved at centre for the most part, but I think would be a game changer coming off the bench.

A left edge of Brooks, Ola'akautu, Talau and Saab looks threatening and balanced, and a right edge of Chez, Bateman*, Turbo and Garrick equally so, and with the youthful Lehi at the back, will turn this squad into a serious contender.

If then the hooking and middle forward rotation is re-arranged slightly to promote more creativity and leg speed, then I truly believe there is line up in there somewhere that could really push the best come finals time

Yep good call. Definitely need to change a few things to go a few steps further in 25. Be interesting to see what the coach comes up with. We all have front row tickets!!!

 

[LeonardCohen]

That implies you know better than others who challenge your position Leonard with their own conjecture, perception, interpretation of what they are seeing and how they see it. I didn't realise you were infallible.

It implies that I saw what so many other posters and commentators saw as anecdotal evidence. Someone pointed out to you the flaw in the tackle efficiency statistic and danced around it like Fred Astaire!

 

[manly al]

Still going to come down to priorities as much as anything else how Garrick is used in 25 and whether centre or reverting to a wing role .
And the premise on who can of course offer the most in select roles .
Also still not entirely sure what to make of Rueben 's apparently stated preference to be considered as a centre primarily when he re signed for his current contract .
Would not have been a determining factor but no doubt played a part
Maybe to take note of the present contract arrangements in the backs , Saab signed long term , Koula until 27 i think , Garrick , 2 more seasons , Turbo a given but for another 3 seasons irrespective , Lehi until 27 / i think but will no doubt have to be upgraded .
Talau not signed beyond 25 at this stage but ideally to be retained a bit longer term
Personally still think a very , very marginal call on whether to persist [ stats aside ] with Garrick in the centres with Koula and Lehi on a wing with Saab , Turbo at the back .
Talau back up but in a day game 17 or given a go in a non back line role
Or Lehi on the bench , Talau centre with Koula , Garrick back to wing .
Having Talau or Lehi on the bench would present other challenges for normal bench requirements but will just have to see how the pre season preparations go and subsequent trials

 

[maxta]

It wasn’t isolated to people just on the forum calling out his defence, several podcasts highlighted their concerns with him at centre.

Then one of the best playmakers to play the game (Joey John’s) wrote an article before the semi finals, which simply put was aim your attack at Garrick.

He can tackle, the problem I see with him is he doesn’t read the attack and becomes a liability jamming in with his inside shoulder a large percentage of the time.

See which direction the coaches go after the offseason with the back five.

Very good summary....it's not just about "not being able to tackle".for the opposition to attack....it's the decision making where Garrick often gets caughts out, as he gets indecisive.
I recall 1 game against Storm when they were coming home to get us at Brookie and he made 2 calls to jam in and didn't hesitate and shut down 2 certain tries and absolutely belted them and then I also recall many occasions in the season in general, he just got caught on the back foot and allowed the attack to dictate and kill him both inside and out.
But some food for thought, regardless of what everyone says for right or wrong, he is often dealt tougher cards then arguably "any" other right centre in the game, as Garrick's edge often gets shown up due to the middles losing the contest in the ruck, allowing ridiculous momentum which will look 100% on Garrick and friends on that edge, where credit should often be shared with where the root of the problem started, back at that play the ball.

 

[Bearfax]

Bear there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that Reuben had / has serious defensive issues out wide. Just from watching the games. The more intriguing question in my mind is what Seibold will do about it for next year. Persevere? Change? I would definitely go the latter ala Zac Lomax and shift him out to wing where I think he is far better suited. I would also bring Turbo in as his centre partner. I thought Turbo looked really good there for Australia both in attack and defence. Might even preserve his longevity given far less workload. Lehi straight to fullback. Tolu and Saab on the other side. That to me is a serious and solid premiership winning backline.

My whole argument was not to defend Garrick but to ensure that tangible evidence is produced to support claims. I've consistently taken that stance on this site for years. I have no problems at all supporting well presented verified evidential claims. Phobia presented tangible evidence and consequently I am swayed by that material. I'm not swayed by conjecture, anymore than I'm swayed by rhetoric over action. Too often people are swayed by the former. The US elections result shows that.