SIRO TO 5/8?

[Scorpio]

Jamil's career was interrupted by a lengthy gaol term and banning from the game. We have no idea how he would have performed had he been brought through the ranks earlier. But two years out of the game has an impact as demonstrated with his brother, who never again reached the heights reached at Manly.

Jamil is listed by the Broncos as 1.8m tall and 93kg, which is pretty small by modern NRL standards, especially for a starting second rower.

To be honest I think his size is more of a hindrance to his career than anything else.

 

[Bearfax]

Not sure about all the names mentioned but I can tell you that there is a stark difference between where we are as a club now and where the NE were in 2003 when they decided to blood a young Snake... right now our kids aren't playing reserves, we are 4/6 and key players are out - it is set up for them to fail imo and they are going to cop unfair criticism if they do...

Actually Frank our position at present is very similar to the period 2004-7, when we were rising up the table. There were a lot of new faces in the side such as the Stewart brothers, Ballin, Watmough, Kite, Jamie Lyon, Monaghan, Bell, Robertson. It was a mix of new players to the club and youngsters moving up. Manly is at a similar stage having left behind a couple of poor years and gradually forming a core of top rankers. The forward line up we have is one of the best in the game now, except maybe at hooker, which is still an issue. The backline though is still very much in flux and to reach the top I think there needs to be a couple of changes. 5/8 is number one problem. Manly needs someone with distributing skills like Lyon, Lyons, Alan Thompson in that role. A backup with attacking skill to cover for Turbo and one for DCE is also imperative. The centres will be an interesting area by 2021 with Walker, Suli, Funa, Burbo, Parker vying for those two positions. But as I see it Manly must give each player a reasonable opportunity to show their wares as soon as practicable, and we need some good attacking players not just defensive.

 

[frank stokes]

In 2003 we were coming off 5 years of missing finals, had just decoupled from the disastrous NE venture and we were in 10th spot coming off a drubbing from StG at Brookie when Snake got blooded...
In 2020 we have played finals 2 of the last 3 years, made it to the 2nd week of finals last year without our best player (and arguably should have won if Jake doesnt get 10) and have started the season 4 from 6 and the NRL admit it should have been 5/6... we are certainly in a better spot than when Snake came in and the spotlight on Schuster (particularly if picked at 6) will be a lot brighter (and hotter)... I hope he plays and kills it (we all want another Keiran) but I reckon he may struggle....

 

[LittleSnake]

Man, croker plays out of his skin for us. Very much a Brad Parker type. Let's back the guy as he's already bled for manly almost every game

 

[Bearfax]

2015 9th
2016 13th
2017 6th (but just scraped in)
2018 15th
2019 6th

I think that is fairly similar. in 2017 we were pretty lucky to reach the finals and were knocked out comfortably by the team that came 7th in the first final's match. Our defence was 11th. We were fortunate to keep most of our players on the field during the year, but we were never a contender

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Ponga didnt set the game alight when he first started in firsts up in North Queensland.

Hey I'm starting to think you just make up a lot of stuff. I know its fashionable nowadays in a certain formerly great country, but we don't need that!
Ponga actually had a very exciting debut!

NRL video: Kalyn Ponga shows off sizzling sidestep on debut with North Queensland Cowboys

Video: Sizzling Ponga’s amazing debut feat

www.foxsports.com.au

I'm suggesting test them out, just as Brett Stewart was tested out in 2003 when barely 18 years old. Didnt hurt him.

And as @Shoe1 said, it did hurt him. He got smashed and suffered a serious injury!

 

[Bearfax]

Hey I'm starting to think you just make up a lot of stuff. I know its fashionable nowadays in a certain formerly great country, but we don't need that!
Ponga actually had a very exciting debut!

NRL video: Kalyn Ponga shows off sizzling sidestep on debut with North Queensland Cowboys

Video: Sizzling Ponga’s amazing debut feat

www.foxsports.com.au

And as @Shoe1 said, it did hurt him. He got smashed and suffered a serious injury!

So did Tom Wright in one of his early games. Pongo's first game was on the wing. he did OK. As the following year unfolded he got better and was outstanding by years end. Had Wright had the same encouragement we may have had a star as well. He also had one outstanding game out of the very few he played. As for the second point, I am sure pretty Stewart wasn't injured in his first match in 2003. He replaced an injured player. Besides players are injured all the time. It doesnt change the fact that they have to be introduced some time

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

So did Tom Wright in one of his early games. Pongo's first game was on the wing. he did OK. As the following year unfolded he got better and was outstanding by years end. Had Wright had the same encouragement we may have had a star as well. He also had one outstanding game out of the very few he played. As for the second point, I am sure pretty Stewart wasn't injured in his first match in 2003. He replaced an injured player. Besides players are injured all the time. It doesnt change the fact that they have to be introduced some time

Plenty of Bear but very few fax, lol

 

[BrendonStarr]

No. That performance by him last week would be in his top 3 performances of all time. I would put Gosiewski into fullback before i moved Sironen out of position

 

[frank stokes]

2015 9th
2016 13th
2017 6th (but just scraped in)
2018 15th
2019 6th

I think that is fairly similar. in 2017 we were pretty lucky to reach the finals and were knocked out comfortably by the team that came 7th in the first final's match. Our defence was 11th. We were fortunate to keep most of our players on the field during the year, but we were never a contender

You've really depressed me now BF... here I am thinking we're sailing along pretty well the last 18 months but now I find out we are in no better position than when we were the Northern Eagles... I'm off to find a length of rope...

 

[Bearfax]

Plenty of Bear but very few fax, lol

SER. Let me get something straight with you. I don't get stuck into you for comments you make. This is a debate not a put down exercise. I have a right to an opinion just as you do. You don't see me putting you down for your particular opinions. You don't have to agree with me, but try to show some respect.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Hey relax I have bulk respect for you as a fiction writer! And as a Manly fan and Silvertails stalwart who contributes a lot to this excellent site.
But I disagree that Ponga didn't set the game alight when he started and I posted a story saying "Ponga sizzles in Cowboys debut" - so not having a go at you just pointing out that I disagree and I'm not the only one.
Similar for Brett Stewart, you said it didn't hurt him getting put in at 18, but in fact it did! I'm guessing you meant it didn't stop him having a great career, in which case I agree with you 100%

 

[frank stokes]

SER. Let me get something straight with you. I don't get stuck into you for comments you make. This is a debate not a put down exercise. I have a right to an opinion just as you do. You don't see me putting you down for your particular opinions. You don't have to agree with me, but try to show some respect.

We all have different perspectives on things... and if it wasn't for Google I would be flat out remembering my own name...
Debate is good for the mind and we all take our turns to get things wrong... for example, I thought re-signing Des the Traitor was a terrible idea yet the prodigal son has returned and all of a sudden I wouldn't want anyone else in the job...

...BUT we ARE in better shape than 2003 BF and I will not be told otherwise (my poor little brain will explode otherwise)

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

And @Bearfax to be clear I meant no offence to you, though I obviously disagreed with one or two things

 

[Dee Why Eagle]

@Bearfax is right except for the last sentence. Brett Stewart was put in 1st grade too early at 18, and needed a new shoulder after being injured in game 1.

What pr!ck would have injured him on debut 😱?

 

[Bearfax]

I'll just say this and wont continue to discuss the matter.

I respect your responses here and I know those on this forum do respect each other as far as it goes. But when we are debating an issue, what we are discussing is the focus of our comments. We're looking at different points of view, which naturally is how we learn. We pick and choose what we can accept and we may then express where we disagree. Fine. But the issue is not about the author, its only about the opinion expressed, and with that we can agree or disagree. As Frank suggested we all have different perspectives on everything. Doesn't make us right or wrong, just that we are all different, genetically, through our conditionings, our experiences. We've all travelled different roads, that lead us to that perspective. We may think an argument inane, ill-informed, off the planet and that's natural but you always have to come back to the fact that that's just your perspective, your particular bias and we all have that, but its not reality, so you don't say it. We cant as they say second guess. Vivre la difference.

Now I know instinctively we all realise this, and that its the bleeding obvious, Bearfax, but its easy to start thinking we know more than the other person. However, when you start refocussing our argument to criticise the author, rather than the argument, we are in fact questioning that person's right to their opinion, judging that person, and making an assumption that we are right or know more. That's a line we should never cross in debate, because suddenly its not about the subject being discussed, its about the person expressing an opinion and their right to that opinion. 'nough said.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

and that its the bleeding obvious, Bearfax

Hey I hope you aren't having a go at Bearfax! But on a serious note, I agree with those sentiments and am sorry you took personal offence. I'll rein in my comments. I probably get a bit too relaxed here at times as I've been here so long and get to feel like I ''know' so many of you regulars but I suppose it can create a false sense of familiarity.

 

[Bearfax]

SER understand I'm a pompous old fart often and rather opinionated. Doesn't mean I think I'm right. Just that I say what seems to make the most sense at that time to me. I also tend to say things to elicit responses, test the water so to speak.

In my long term employment I was conditioned to believe nothing I was told, but just store it as information for later assessment. Ergo drives me mad listening to shock jocks and reading newspaper editorials that I know are saturated with bias, misinformation and put downs of those who have an alternative viewpoint. I have an investigators slant (a requirement of the job), and that's how I survived in my role as a parole officer, and union head.

But the key was always to show respect for the person. Criticise the action but maintain open dialogue by showing that I have no right to judge, that is for the courts. Actually saved my life a couple of times in very tricky situations where the relationship was threatened but the knowledge that I was not suggesting I was better or a judge saved me. Respect for me is fundamental and I know I am in the end no better than anyone else, just different.

So if I say something that you consider crap, it may very well be so, but at that moment its what makes the most sense to me. I don't mind being challenged and many times I have been proven wrong. Not unusual in the slightest. I'm hardly the font of all knowledge as they say, not by a long shot.

Now regarding the subject we were discussing, you may be quite right in what you say. Just be a little gentle with this old fart in response.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Makes good sense. Ironically, while I took issue with your comments about Ponga and Snake, I don't disagree with your general point about blooding players. So here's to spirited but respectful discussion.

edit - with regards to attempts at humour, I will now second guess my first instincts because I've found they are wrong at least three times out of five

 

[Shoe1]

In my world @Bearfax and @SeaEagleRock8 are two of the good people, so they shouldn't fight.