Pro-Referee thread

[Deleted member 24974]

In spite of winning that game fairly comfortably, it again highlighted to me how little feel refs have for the crucial incidents. Leilua should have been binned twice, even if the second one was just for making such a dumb play.
Similarly in the Bulldogs Souths clash, Tolman made a legitimate attempt to play the ball but was penalised. From there Souths had the next 4 sets and scored to get themselves back in the game, but didn’t earn the right, as it was only the ref again stepping in when he shouldn’t have. I am no Bulldogs fan, but the Jackson incident on half time again typifies the crucial calls they get wrong.
As for the match tonight, Uate should go if Walker is back with Parker to the wing. Croker is string defensively but adds nothing to our attack or kicking game, while DCE only converts the easykicks.

The focus of the current clean-up is on the ruck area and 10m. How are teams milking penalties in regards to this (apart from the odd pass thrown into an opposition player in the ruck area)?

And yes, coaches will adapt to the rules as you said... they will start to coach their teams to clean up their ruck work and stop racing off the line too early. Sounds good to me.

There milking in the ruck by pretending to fall over at the play the ball and pretend to be held down. There milking offsides with quick taps and then pointing at offside players.

You are very gullible if you think coaches will start coaching teams to clean up the ruck.

What will happen as soon as referees stop the constant penalties? It will return to exactly what it was.

 

[The Who]

I was at Brookie at 5pm anticipating a top reserve grade match. It was killed by the ref. I don't know the official penalty count but it felt like high 20s, with 75% going to Mountees.
I also thought the ref was far too whistle happy in first grade, where there were 26 penalties, I understand. I did think Manly was gifted a lot of penalties in the first half, and that the ref tried to even the count in the second. Fortunately, the Faders were too inconsistent.
I'm delighted with the result but my enjoyment for the sport is waning - and I've been watching Manly play for more than 55 years. There is too much interference from the ref/s and very little flow. We are lucky to have some off-the-cuff players who managed to entertain between penalties.

 

[Snake]

Mentioned a few years ago they should penalize and sinbin like crazy for 2yrs for the greater good of the game in the long run, hope they stick with it this time.

Way too many commentators just want to "relate" to the "regular fan" for their own popularity wanting low penalty counts, way too many coaches want to "appear" they are all about low penalty counts for a "free flowing game" when it benefits their team to keep the status quo.

What these penalty counts show is how much leniency and overlooking has been done over the years, no point having a game with rules if they don't apply.

Low penalty counts make it easy for coaches to manipulate the game in a variety of obvious and not so obvious to the casual observer ways.

In saying that i will never agree with fast play the balls offering a better spectacle---i don't find darts out of dummy half or show and goes against a retreating defensive like for simple line breaks all that appealing.

And to imply(in a roundabout way) Melb would have been easier to defeat is nonsense---they were so far ahead technically for the most part along with game analysis, fitness and targeted recruiting.

The other 15 coaches should all be sacked if one club over the last decade was the only team to wrestle with any consistent benefit for continued success----or there is some major conspiracy theory suggesting the rules didn't apply to Melb which is ridiculous.

If teams start following the rules we will get a free flowing game with lasting benefits and lower penalty counts than at present, not lower overall compared to the previous years but low enough to get the right balance.

Melbourne pioneered a number of these spoiling tactics, which is why they've been mentioned. Bellamy tailored an approach to suit his roster (and he recruits players that suit this style) effectively over a number of years.

It's a bit of coincidence that the club that pioneers these tactics, happen to be the club that do them most effectively?!

Just because Melbourne are the best team at manipulating the rules, does not necessarily equate to them being the best at playing within the rules. You cannot make that assumption because of the number of variables. They are cheating pricks and they got beaten the other night because they failed to adapt the referee not allowing them to play their cheating style.

Yes there is plenty to like about the way they train, fitness and structure and what not...but you certainly even the playing field a little when both teams have to play to the rules, as opposed to one. A lot of what Bellamy has done is not in the spirit of the game IMO and no two coaches are ever the same. It's wrong to suggest that 15 other coaches simply need to watch replays of Melbourne Storm games and adopt everything that club is doing...it's stupid and impossible. To use an analogy: we hear that Wayne Bennett is a good man manager; are all 15 coaches good man managers now?

 

[HK_Eagle]

There milking in the ruck by pretending to fall over at the play the ball and pretend to be held down. There milking offsides with quick taps and then pointing at offside players.

You are very gullible if you think coaches will start coaching teams to clean up the ruck.

What will happen as soon as referees stop the constant penalties? It will return to exactly what it was.

If tacklers continue to lay in around the ruck then they deserve to get penalised.

Players taking quick taps and pointing.... players are going to point and whinge about things all day. Some will go on trying to milk in all different aspects of the game. That is irrelevant if the refs continue to focus on enforcing the rules. 1. Refs getting conned by players and 2. enforcing rules around offside and the ruck are two different issues.

Well, firstly, If I was to accept your assumption that the amount of penalties were to eventually decrease I hope it is because coaches and teams finally accept they cannot bend this area anymore, and look to adapt. The refs not maintaining their stance over time on enforcing these rules is another issue. I applaud them for at least making the effort to clean up this part of the game, and I acknowledge they have at times in the past suffered from follow through. I'd still prefer they at least try and not simply throw their hands in the air, allowing coaches and players to continue bastardising this aspect of the game.

 

[The Who]

The way the game is now adjudicated gives the refs way too much power to manipulate results.

 

[Deleted member 24974]

If tacklers continue to lay in around the ruck then they deserve to get penalised.

Players taking quick taps and pointing.... players are going to point and whinge about things all day. Some will go on trying to milk in all different aspects of the game. That is irrelevant if the refs continue to focus on enforcing the rules. 1. Refs getting conned by players and 2. enforcing rules around offside and the ruck are two different issues.

Well, firstly, If I was to accept your assumption that the amount of penalties were to eventually decrease I hope it is because coaches and teams finally accept they cannot bend this area anymore, and look to adapt. The refs not maintaining their stance over time on enforcing these rules is another issue. I applaud them for at least making the effort to clean up this part of the game, and I acknowledge they have at times in the past suffered from follow through. I'd still prefer they at least try and not simply throw their hands in the air, allowing coaches and players to continue bastardising this aspect of the game.

Your entitled to your opinion. You obviously love stop start football and penalty goals. Personally I love the free flowing play we get in State of Origin games where there are very low penalty counts.

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Melbourne pioneered a number of these spoiling tactics, which is why they've been mentioned. Bellamy tailored an approach to suit his roster (and he recruits players that suit this style) effectively over a number of years.

It's a bit of coincidence that the club that pioneers these tactics, happen to be the club that do them most effectively?!

Just because Melbourne are the best team at manipulating the rules, does not necessarily equate to them being the best at playing within the rules. You cannot make that assumption because of the number of variables. They are cheating pricks and they got beaten the other night because they failed to adapt the referee not allowing them to play their cheating style.

Yes there is plenty to like about the way they train, fitness and structure and what not...but you certainly even the playing field a little when both teams have to play to the rules, as opposed to one. A lot of what Bellamy has done is not in the spirit of the game IMO and no two coaches are ever the same. It's wrong to suggest that 15 other coaches simply need to watch replays of Melbourne Storm games and adopt everything that club is doing...it's stupid and impossible.

Yes . Very well said Snake.

I will add that the current NRL admin can either follow other admins or blaze a new trail.

There is NOTHING, ZERO, NILTCH, ad nueseum, that means that NRL income follows the sway of demographics that the media partners are so full of convincing RL officials will happen.

The NRL is better off doing its own research and developing its own in house media transfer unit so we as supporters ( and I mean Manly to New Zealand) have a trusted source of sports media to give our dollars too.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Your entitled to your opinion. You obviously love stop start football and penalty goals. Personally I love the free flowing play we get in State of Origin games where there are very low penalty counts.

I share your love for free-flowing games. I also don't enjoy stop-start games. We are completely in agreement on that point. I'm willing to give the refs a chance to try and clean up these aspects of the game in the hope we end up with a better flowing product in the long term. Whether they will be successful at this remains to be seen.

 

[Deleted member 24974]

So is the farking **** that Melbourne have been dishing up for the last 10 years. Don't you get the NRL and referees know that fans don't want stop start games?

They aren't dumb and ignorant, but they are doing what they have to do to try and get the game back to what it should be...

It's short sighted to think that this is just referees ruining the game for no good reason. There is a purpose. No one likes the penalties, that we can all agree on. But that doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen in the short term to fix a problem that is rife in the NRL.

So if Melbourne’s tactics are the reason for so many penalties and ruining every game why not just penalise Melbourne.

 

[HK_Eagle]

So if Melbourne’s tactics are the reason for so many penalties and ruining every game why not just penalise Melbourne.

That's exactly what they did. Did you watch the game last night. Gee, they even put sCam in the bin.

 

[Deleted member 24974]

That's exactly what they did. Did you watch the game last night. Gee, they even put sCam in the bin.

I fell asleep during the game it was so boring. Did notice the ridiculous penalty counts in other non Melbourne games.

 

[Snake]

So if Melbourne’s tactics are the reason for so many penalties and ruining every game why not just penalise Melbourne.

I'm not saying Melbourne are the only team that deserve to be penalised...

I am saying they manipulate the rules better than other clubs because their coach is excellent at (a) coming up with manipulative tactics and (b) training his side to execute these tactics effectively.

Being great at borderline cheating is nothing to pump your chest about, which is why I will continue to discredit Melbourne's tactics.

 

[Lyonstomenzies]

In spite of winning that game fairly comfortably, it again highlighted to me how little feel refs have for the crucial incidents. Leilua should have been binned twice, even if the second one was just for making such a dumb play.
Similarly in the Bulldogs Souths clash, Tolman made a legitimate attempt to play the ball but was penalised. From there Souths had the next 4 sets and scored to get themselves back in the game, but didn’t earn the right, as it was only the ref again stepping in when he shouldn’t have. I am no Bulldogs fan, but the Jackson incident on half time again typifies the crucial calls they get wrong.
As for the match tonight, Uate should go if Walker is back with Parker to the wing. Croker is string defensively but adds nothing to our attack or kicking game, while DCE only converts the easykicks.

Refs like players and coaches will always make mistakes. That won’t change, what can change is the leaniency to certain styles of play, the wrestle, being offside on purpose and giving away penalties on your own line are all not great for the game.

Refs will get calls wrong and in the cases you mentioned yes they did get them wrong. I can deal with that (although not if it’s against Manly) as long as they are looking for the obvious bending of the rules.

 

[Technical Coach]

Melbourne pioneered a number of these spoiling tactics, which is why they've been mentioned. Bellamy tailored an approach to suit his roster (and he recruits players that suit this style) effectively over a number of years.

It's a bit of coincidence that the club that pioneers these tactics, happen to be the club that do them most effectively?!

Just because Melbourne are the best team at manipulating the rules, does not necessarily equate to them being the best at playing within the rules. You cannot make that assumption because of the number of variables. They are cheating pricks and they got beaten the other night because they failed to adapt the referee not allowing them to play their cheating style.

Yes there is plenty to like about the way they train, fitness and structure and what not...but you certainly even the playing field a little when both teams have to play to the rules, as opposed to one. A lot of what Bellamy has done is not in the spirit of the game IMO and no two coaches are ever the same. It's wrong to suggest that 15 other coaches simply need to watch replays of Melbourne Storm games and adopt everything that club is doing...it's stupid and impossible. To use an analogy: we hear that Wayne Bennett is a good man manager; are all 15 coaches good man managers now?

Totally missing the point of what i am saying.

First of all "pioneering" anything does not equate to "dominating this area for 10 straight years" in most areas of life from sport to business.

Man management analogy is so off point also, communication skills and being able to relate to people/players is an inward character trait.

Improving the art of the wrestle (yes improve and take to the next level as the wrestle existed before Melb---they only made an art-form out of it) is all about the input from several sources from a variety of skilled people and game analysis on how to best apply it in the most efficient and easily reproduced manner.

There are a fair few good man managers---Bennett was ahead of his time maybe in the 90's but many coaches these days have applied his methods along with improve upon in this area to relate to a new generation better.

You make it out that Melb pioneered the spoiling/wrestling tactics and no other coach has been able to replicate or understand how to apply the same techniques to play at an even level. Are you suggesting that every other team is behind the curve because their coached to not follow in their footsteps.(i guess a sense of playing more fair---yeah right)

Nothing stopping other teams to replicate what the Storm do,
or "pioneer" something else in some other element of the game for success to be ahead of the curve for a change.

Melb didn't lose the game against the Sharks due to being penalized more, their attacking options, final play options and composure in attack is lacking without Cronk at the moment(to be expected) and the aging of Smith and Slater. More risk taking and errors earlier in the tackle count due to pushing passes that are not on----applying a spread for the sake of it and not doing the ground work earlier in the set to create an overlap or isolate players when the spread is applied etc etc.

Cronk added that science behind their well structured attack, now the Storm are coming back to the field in this area and lack that clinical precision that kills teams.

Through the above frustration builds along with pushing the envelope even more in the ruck--- in a less composed manner that lends itself to penalties(that is one reason why other teams in the past got penalized more---not as composed while applying the wrestle)

 

[manlyfan76]

Cronk could be the buy of the year. Not for the roosters, but because of the losses melbourne will have.

 

[Fibro Eagle]

We have a new referee boss in the name of Bernard Sutton who has applied this crackdown maybe he is tired of the way the game is played and adjudicated and wants to make a stand until he is relieved of his duties this might go on forever

 

[Snake]

Totally missing the point of what i am saying.

First of all "pioneering" anything does not equate to "dominating this area for 10 straight years" in most areas of life from sport to business.

Man management analogy is so off point also, communication skills and being able to relate to people/players is an inward character trait.

Improving the art of the wrestle (yes improve and take to the next level as the wrestle existed before Melb---they only made an art-form out of it) is all about the input from several sources from a variety of skilled people and game analysis on how to best apply it in the most efficient and easily reproduced manner.

There are a fair few good man managers---Bennett was ahead of his time maybe in the 90's but many coaches these days have applied his methods along with improve upon in this area to relate to a new generation better.

You make it out that Melb pioneered the spoiling/wrestling tactics and no other coach has been able to replicate or understand how to apply the same techniques to play at an even level. Are you suggesting that every other team is behind the curve because their coached to not follow in their footsteps.(i guess a sense of playing more fair---yeah right)

Nothing stopping other teams to replicate what the Storm do,
or "pioneer" something else in some other element of the game for success to be ahead of the curve for a change.

Melb didn't lose the game against the Sharks due to being penalized more, their attacking options, final play options and composure in attack is lacking without Cronk at the moment(to be expected) and the aging of Smith and Slater. More risk taking and errors earlier in the tackle count due to pushing passes that are not on----applying a spread for the sake of it and not doing the ground work earlier in the set to create an overlap or isolate players when the spread is applied etc etc.

Cronk added that science behind their well structured attack, now the Storm are coming back to the field in this area and lack that clinical precision that kills teams.

Through the above frustration builds along with pushing the envelope even more in the ruck--- in a less composed manner that lends itself to penalties(that is one reason why other teams in the past got penalized more---not as composed while applying the wrestle)

The man management analogy is not far off at all. It highlights other clubs and coaches can identify a quality, strive for it, but due to a number of variables (e.g. Personality), fall short.

Just because other clubs identify qualities in Melbourne's style, structure or approach to the game, doesn't equate to successful implementation of said qualities due to the number of variables that have to be like for like.

The rest of your post seemed like rambling so I don't really have anything to say back to it.

 

[Technical Coach]

The man management analogy is not far off at all. It highlights other clubs and coaches can identify a quality, strive for it, but due to a number of variables (e.g. Personality), fall short.

Just because other clubs identify qualities in Melbourne's style, structure or approach to the game, doesn't equate to successful implementation of said qualities due to the number of variables that have to be like for like.

The rest of your post seemed like rambling so I don't really have anything to say back to it.

I never said teams "have to" implement any of Melb's qualities but they should stop complaining about said qualities or using it as an excuse for Melb's prolonged success.

Choices are "implement and improve upon" or "find something else to pioneer and stay ahead of the curve for a period of time"

Second part of my post was addressing your comments about Melb not performing as well due to being "penalized", with my own opinions, if that is considered rambling now, so be it.

Simple facts are the game was 1-0 in tries, if Melb executed with past clinical composed precision they win that game still.(even in a stop start affair making it harder to score tries)

Now back to my Harbour views afforded to me from a past TPA that i decided to cash in.

 

[EaglesDontTweet]

I support the referee crackdown but it is interesting to see that in the short term it is turning the game back to almost what the unlimited tackle days must have been like. I say this based on when a team limits errors and controls the ball, then the odds favour getting a penalty, then more control of possession, then another chance of a penalty.

A smart well disciplined team will take advantage of this and tire out the other side. Every dropped ball, forward pass (not "flat" anymore), and incorrect play the ball, are significantly more costly at the moment.

I think the penalties will settle down soon though.

 

[The Who]

A very competent refereeing performance today in the Tigers V Eels match. Just 11 penalties (8-3 Tigers). In one passage in the second half there was 27 minutes play without a penalty. Amazing.
It just shows you that refs can officiate in a sensible way without going overboard.