[Resurrected] Please, please Trent... Pick Tom Wright

[SeaEagleRock8]

You're not looking SER8. The very fact that these kids go to other clubs and succeed is evidence I would have thought. Dont get me wrong here. I'm not suggesting that every junior making first grade is going to be top tier. But coaches, like most supporters want quick fix solutions. That method rarely works. Most successful coaches bring their juniors through step by step and allow them time to develop. Bellamy is a master at it. Gibson was brilliant at it. Arthurson as a manager ensued the club held onto players who showed potential but were not yet top tier. Of course a top winning coach does have the luxury of time, which is in itself self perpetuating. The more time allowed to develop the more likely of success. Cleary seems to use the same method.

What I've observed of coaches who use quick fix solutions is that they are constantly importing average first graders and tending to overlook juniors who don't immediately thrive. Barrett did this. What surprised was Hasler doing it the second round. Its a patch up job and rarely works but these coaches are under pressure from their management and supporters to have instant success. In my opinion a sure way to fail

Sorry to say Bear you ignored the point of my post. I asked what evidence you had that coaches should give young talent an extended run in first grade to gauge their potential.

First - Gibson and Arko didn’t operate in the salary cap era.
Second - Bellamy and Cleary actually are evidence against your theory, not for it!

Bellamy has had Jack Howarth - who as a junior had Turbo-type wraps on him - playing reserves for the last 4 years! He’s only now showing he’s ready for 1st grade, hence now getting picked. You would say Bellamy should have been picking him in 1sts for the last year or two on his potential? But no, he’s preferred to use solid 1st graders like Meany, Smith, Lewis, Blore etc.

I do agree with your last paragraph that coaches are under pressure for instant results (sadly the derision and abuse every Manly coach receives here on ST after every single loss is ample evidence of that)’

 

[Bearfax]

Sorry to say Bear you ignored the point of my post. I asked what evidence you had that coaches should give young talent an extended run in first grade to gauge their potential.

First - Gibson and Arko didn’t operate in the salary cap era.
Second - Bellamy and Cleary actually are evidence against your theory, not for it!

Bellamy has had Jack Howarth - who as a junior had Turbo-type wraps on him - playing reserves for the last 4 years! He’s only now showing he’s ready for 1st grade, hence now getting picked. You would say Bellamy should have been picking him in 1sts for the last year or two on his potential? But no, he’s preferred to use solid 1st graders like Meany, Smith, Lewis, Blore etc.

I do agree with your last paragraph that coaches are under pressure for instant results (sadly the derision and abuse every Manly coach receives here on ST after every single loss is ample evidence of that)’

On the contrary Bellamy and Cleary do follow that principle. Please name outstanding juniors from these clubs who were let go without getting more than a few first grade games under their belt. I dont mean established stars who were then too costly or juniors receiving huge offers elsewhere. I mean virtually showing talented players the door. Check out the players they have and how often top juniors leave. OK Bellamy might hold back players, but the difference is that who he has in frst grade are doing the job. He's got a winning team so why change. Manly hasn't for years and yet young potential stars are not replacing average first graders who aren't performing up to the needed standard. If I am incorrect how is it in Manly's case they have been so 'also ran' for almost the entire last decade.

This all started around 2015 and if you refer back you will find I consistently criticised the club for letting potential top tier players go, starting with Gutherson. Then there was the travesty over Foran- DCE that left Manly paying well over market value for their star half back. Then there was the failing to keep tabs on the salary cap and ending being penalised in such a manner that put us behind the eight ball for a couple of years. Manly's recruitment policy for top grade has been very patchy. Meanwhile young players being brought through the system were entering a bottle neck that saw few moving to the next level, first grade. Anecdotally I'm sure you can identify one or two players slipping through the net at those top clubs (include SC here as well). Not as frequently as Manly who have in recent years begun to act like Wests.

I dont blame Seibold for some questionable recruitment issues. That's because the Management has been looking for quick fix solutions. Dropping a successful coach in Toovey for an inexperienced coach in Barrett was a start of the rot. I hope with the present decisions to ensure some of our top juniors are locked up, continues, because up until recently it was a mess, and I think most on this forum would agree.

 

[Disco]

On the contrary Bellamy and Cleary do follow that principle. Please name outstanding juniors from these clubs who were let go without getting more than a few first grade games under their belt. I dont mean established stars who were then too costly or juniors receiving huge offers elsewhere. I mean virtually showing talented players the door.

Isaiya Katoa
J'maine Hopgood
Wayde Egan
Te Maire Martin

Or

Scott Drinkwater
Cody Walker

 

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

I think Wright is much better suited to Union. My memories of him, even in juniors was that he was very much a rocks and diamonds player. Scored a great try on the weekend but not convinced he would have had the same career in league.

there are plenty of rocks and diamonds players across the league. He could have been great. Thanks Tbaz you twat.

 

[Bearfax]

Isaiya Katoa
J'maine Hopgood
Wayde Egan
Te Maire Martin

Or

Scott Drinkwater
Cody Walker

Like I said you can pick anecdotal examples. I knew someone would respond. The primary issue is outcomes. If your team is succeeding with the players you have in the top grade, yes you may let go some who could be fine first graders. That's not the issue here. We have a team that has for the most part been at the bottom half of the comp for almost a decade. Yet Manly were letting go some talented juniors during that time and recruiting average first graders. Different with Penrith, Melbourne and Sydney City because their teams were competitive and generally well in the finals. You don't have to change teams much when you're winning. We saw both Barrett and Hasler consistently reluctant to change their squad and allow some players to find form in first grade. The evidence is in where these teams finished their seasons

Between 2016-23 Manly came in at 13, 6, 15, 6, 13, 4, 11, 12

During the same period check these teams end of season positions
Penrith 6, 7, 5, 10, 1, 2 (won the GF), 1, 1
Storm 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 5, 3.
Sydney City 15, 2, 2, 1, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Little wonder those teams could let go talent if they had a team that was succeeding. Manly as you can see was not. So do you really think Manly's strategy was appropriate. Really? The game is about outcomes. The teams Manly had were not achieving at a competitive level. They had junior teams succeeding, yet few of those kids got through. Opportunity can be the difference for a team and a player in succeeding to reach their optimum

 

[47MVEagle]

My personal opion is Wright may have had a Matt Dufty type of career in the NRL and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I've not lost an ounce of sleep on letting Wright go but we all have different views on players.

Side note, Rugby in Australia is at its absolute lowest ebb atm.

Was wondering what Dufty is up to nowadays & checked his wiki page. The photo they have of him isn’t very flattering.

 

[47MVEagle]

It’s a polarising subject for sure, as you can’t keep them all, but out of curiosity I looked up the 2017 Sea Eagles NYC grand final winning team to see how many have gone on to better things (don’t know why Josh Martin is listed twice, assume it’s a typo).

Only one player has kicked on & forged a career in the NRL (Olakau’atu).

Obviously Fainu ruined his own chances & sadly we’ll never know if Keith Titmuss would have transitioned to first grade successfully, but let’s say he would have - that’s 3 of 17 - an ~18% success rate.

Perhaps Wright would also have succeeded in the NRL but given we’ve still got Olakau’atu & Fainu’s circumstances were out of the club’s control, we’ve kept hold of the one player who did go on to better things.


1. Jade Anderson 2. Alfred Smalley 3. Tevita Funa 4. Semisi Kioa 5. Bilal Maarbani 6. Tom Wright 7.Cade Cust 8. Jaiden Tarrant 9. Manase Fainu 10.Elia Faatui 11. Blake Andrews 12. Josh Martin 13.Haumole Olakau'atu 15. Josh Martin 17. John Tasi Tuivaiti 19. Keith Titmuss 23. Michael Fenn

 

[Disco]

Like I said you can pick anecdotal examples. I knew someone would respond. The primary issue is outcomes. If your team is succeeding with the players you have in the top grade, yes you may let go some who could be fine first graders. That's not the issue here. We have a team that has for the most part been at the bottom half of the comp for almost a decade. Yet Manly were letting go some talented juniors during that time and recruiting average first graders. Different with Penrith, Melbourne and Sydney City because their teams were competitive and generally well in the finals. You don't have to change teams much when you're winning. We saw both Barrett and Hasler consistently reluctant to change their squad and allow some players to find form in first grade. The evidence is in where these teams finished their seasons

Between 2016-23 Manly came in at 13, 6, 15, 6, 13, 4, 11, 12

During the same period check these teams end of season positions
Penrith 6, 7, 5, 10, 1, 2 (won the GF), 1, 1
Storm 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 5, 3.
Sydney City 15, 2, 2, 1, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Little wonder those teams could let go talent if they had a team that was succeeding. Manly as you can see was not. So do you really think Manly's strategy was appropriate. Really? The game is about outcomes. The teams Manly had were not achieving at a competitive level. They had junior teams succeeding, yet few of those kids got through. Opportunity can be the difference for a team and a player in succeeding to reach their optimum

Anecdotal- (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Look I'm not really wanting to get into it, there have certainly been some misteps in recruitment. Definitely moreso than then some other clubs but every club does lose players they want to keep at times in the salary cap era.

Also I dont agree with the assertion that our "strategy" is to let go of young talent and recruiting average first graders.

We have brought through or recruited young Tommy, Garrick, Saab, Koula, DCE, Haumole, Burbo, Paseka, Jake.

This year our recruitment and retention is all early 20s or younger bar the performing Brown.

We let Samuela and Latu go which is regretable but that is a bit murky there with Tartak.

Weekes, Humphrey's, personally I dont see 1st grade careers of consiquence.

You also cant keep all young talent in the hope they pay off otherwise you have a 70 man squad full if Demetrious, Pearsells, Tarrents, Pratts, Charlie Taylors etc etc.

All in all I think we have keep the ones we think will add the most value and let go of the ones that dont.

 

[Scorpio]

The facts in this case are:

• Tom Wright played 5 NRL games in 2018
• He was dropped to reserve grade
• He was still contracted at MWSE for 2019
• He asked for a release at the end of 2018, which was granted
• He left to play Rugby

I'd suggest that a player who quits the sport entirely after being dropped to reserves, instead of spending more time improving their craft in reserve grade (like every other player has to do), is not the type of player that would have advanced our NRL squad or our fortunes.

 

[StuBoot]

It’s a polarising subject for sure, as you can’t keep them all, but out of curiosity I looked up the 2017 Sea Eagles NYC grand final winning team to see how many have gone on to better things (don’t know why Josh Martin is listed twice, assume it’s a typo).

Only one player has kicked on & forged a career in the NRL (Olakau’atu).

Obviously Fainu ruined his own chances & sadly we’ll never know if Keith Titmuss would have transitioned to first grade successfully, but let’s say he would have - that’s 3 of 17 - an ~18% success rate.

Perhaps Wright would also have succeeded in the NRL but given we’ve still got Olakau’atu & Fainu’s circumstances were out of the club’s control, we’ve kept hold of the one player who did go on to better things.


1. Jade Anderson 2. Alfred Smalley 3. Tevita Funa 4. Semisi Kioa 5. Bilal Maarbani 6. Tom Wright 7.Cade Cust 8. Jaiden Tarrant 9. Manase Fainu 10.Elia Faatui 11. Blake Andrews 12. Josh Martin 13.Haumole Olakau'atu 15. Josh Martin 17. John Tasi Tuivaiti 19. Keith Titmuss 23. Michael Fenn

Agree.
In the Parra squad they had Dylan Brown, Dean Matterson, Mahoney, Keppie, Oregan Kaufusi and Ray Stone as names we recognise and only two still there.

I've looked at this over the years and mentioned it previously, the average is around 4 from a 17 man squad that "kick on", not necessarily stars but regular first graders and not always at that club.
Panthers 2015 GF team had around 7/8 I think but that's above the average.
Even back to the NYC teams of the year it was still around 4/5 of them that became regular names.
It's obviously not a given that junior stars kick on and/or stay so it stands to reason that more than a few slip through the system.

 

[Bearfax]

Gee I enjoy opening up a hornets nest.

 

[Top End Eagle]

On the contrary Bellamy and Cleary do follow that principle. Please name outstanding juniors from these clubs who were let go without getting more than a few first grade games under their belt. I dont mean established stars who were then too costly or juniors receiving huge offers elsewhere. I mean virtually showing talented players the door. Check out the players they have and how often top juniors leave. OK Bellamy might hold back players, but the difference is that who he has in frst grade are doing the job. He's got a winning team so why change. Manly hasn't for years and yet young potential stars are not replacing average first graders who aren't performing up to the needed standard. If I am incorrect how is it in Manly's case they have been so 'also ran' for almost the entire last decade.

This all started around 2015 and if you refer back you will find I consistently criticised the club for letting potential top tier players go, starting with Gutherson. Then there was the travesty over Foran- DCE that left Manly paying well over market value for their star half back. Then there was the failing to keep tabs on the salary cap and ending being penalised in such a manner that put us behind the eight ball for a couple of years. Manly's recruitment policy for top grade has been very patchy. Meanwhile young players being brought through the system were entering a bottle neck that saw few moving to the next level, first grade. Anecdotally I'm sure you can identify one or two players slipping through the net at those top clubs (include SC here as well). Not as frequently as Manly who have in recent years begun to act like Wests.

I dont blame Seibold for some questionable recruitment issues. That's because the Management has been looking for quick fix solutions. Dropping a successful coach in Toovey for an inexperienced coach in Barrett was a start of the rot. I hope with the present decisions to ensure some of our top juniors are locked up, continues, because up until recently it was a mess, and I think most on this forum would agree.

I hate it when mum and dad fight.

 

[Top End Eagle]

Gee I enjoy opening up a hornets nest.

You have made a really great point, but the thing is it's determined by the success of the top grade team. I was in Brisbane around the early-mid 2000s and the biggest benefit I saw the Broncos have was the forced deployment of young players during origin.

It wasn't something fans complained about, having six players selected for rep duty but it was an enforced blooding of good young players on a temporary "contract'.

Everyone knew the guns would be picked the next week when available so players had a chance to audition without criticism.

The way the storm evolved having an ex Broncos assistant coach is the same.

Quality juniors like latrell, Lehi, Dylan brown, will always come through early.


Jayden Campbell is 24 this year. He plays like a first grader, there are kids that can handle it at eighteen,

The problem is coaches thinking they might get a sugar hit by injecting a youngster, via the media attention and the FFS calls to the parents that are on every clubs Facebook page.

Watmoughs was ready at 19 cause he was just a mad bugger and ripped in. Same credentials for a halfback don't jive.

 

[BOZO]

I'd suggest that a player who quits the sport entirely after being dropped to reserves, instead of spending more time improving their craft in reserve grade (like every other player has to do), is not the type of player that would have advanced our NRL squad or our fortunes.

I suggest a player who is overlooked by an incompetent Head coach that does not look else where to fulfil his potential has low self esteem .

What does low self esteem mean ?
Low self-esteem is when someone lacks confidence about who they are and what they can do


Tom Wright ...... Potential full field with 25 appearances at the Elite Representative level
Trent Barret ..... The Two time failed and sacked Head coach who currently has a star studded Eels team running last as his Incompetency continues

 

[manly al]

It’s a polarising subject for sure, as you can’t keep them all, but out of curiosity I looked up the 2017 Sea Eagles NYC grand final winning team to see how many have gone on to better things (don’t know why Josh Martin is listed twice, assume it’s a typo).

Only one player has kicked on & forged a career in the NRL (Olakau’atu).

Obviously Fainu ruined his own chances & sadly we’ll never know if Keith Titmuss would have transitioned to first grade successfully, but let’s say he would have - that’s 3 of 17 - an ~18% success rate.

Perhaps Wright would also have succeeded in the NRL but given we’ve still got Olakau’atu & Fainu’s circumstances were out of the club’s control, we’ve kept hold of the one player who did go on to better things.


1. Jade Anderson 2. Alfred Smalley 3. Tevita Funa 4. Semisi Kioa 5. Bilal Maarbani 6. Tom Wright 7.Cade Cust 8. Jaiden Tarrant 9. Manase Fainu 10.Elia Faatui 11. Blake Andrews 12. Josh Martin 13.Haumole Olakau'atu 15. Josh Martin 17. John Tasi Tuivaiti 19. Keith Titmuss 23. Michael Fenn

Cade Cust had his moments in his intermittent Manly top grade appearances for a couple of seasons , Well just my take Guess that even Fanu showed some promise on the wing in a few i st grade few occasions but obviously not a long termer
Smalley sort of there abouts also

 

[lsz]

It is almost like some players require a bit of time before adapting to first grade

 

[manly al]

Agree.
In the Parra squad they had Dylan Brown, Dean Matterson, Mahoney, Keppie, Oregan Kaufusi and Ray Stone as names we recognise and only two still there.

I've looked at this over the years and mentioned it previously, the average is around 4 from a 17 man squad that "kick on", not necessarily stars but regular first graders and not always at that club.
Panthers 2015 GF team had around 7/8 I think but that's above the average.
Even back to the NYC teams of the year it was still around 4/5 of them that became regular names.
It's obviously not a given that junior stars kick on and/or stay so it stands to reason that more than a few slip through the system.

Did not realize that there were so many future Eels juniors in that side who went on to higher levels .
Certainly recall Keppie though
Just thought it was so noticeable that G F game with the Eels forwards really hammering the young Manly pack for a good part of the match but the dogged Manly forwards somehow hanging in there .
Haumole and Mansie Fainu definitely showing what future top line players that they could be however

 

[BOZO]

It is almost like some players require a bit of time before adapting to first grade

I agree and It also appears some coaches have time for some players and no time for others

 

[JenEagle]

Cade Cust had his moments in his intermittent Manly top grade appearances for a couple of seasons , Well just my take Guess that even Fanu showed some promise on the wing in a few i st grade few occasions but obviously not a long termer
Smalley sort of there abouts also

Yeah Cade Cust was pretty good. I always felt he could have developed into a Aiden Sezer or a Chad Townsend type of half back. If I recall correctly he was about to be picked again in first grade in 2021 when one of DCE or Foz were out however he also got injured and missed his opportunity. With Schuster also being groomed for 5/8 at the time he decided to move to England and has done well. We have some clause allowing us to negotiate with him first if he ever wants to come back to the NRL I believe.

Jade Anderson also looked promising in the lower grades but never made the NRL unfortunately.

Manly made the GF in Under 20 in 2015 as well with Turbo as fullback, Jesse Ramien, Luke Garner and Liam Knight. We played Penrith who had Brent Naden, Dylan Edwards, Taylan May, Moses Leota, Soni Luke, Robert Jennings, JFH etc.

 

[47MVEagle]

Cade Cust had his moments in his intermittent Manly top grade appearances for a couple of seasons , Well just my take Guess that even Fanu showed some promise on the wing in a few i st grade few occasions but obviously not a long termer
Smalley sort of there abouts also

Agree, but they never really went on with it, apart from Cust in the UK.