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omnipotent beings discussion

MuzztheEagle

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Furthermore... ANYONE who murders in the name of God ain’t a Christian. ANYONE who abuses a child behind closed doors under the banner of religion ain’t a Christian. ANYONE who sets up a church to fleece people of cash to line their own pockets ain’t a Christian. They may claim to be Christian but I can assure you that it just ain’t so.
Go look up the No True Scotsman fallacy....this is what you are referring to! Or you can give me an explanation to why this is the case.
Or better yet. Lets go back to the point of justifying ones homophobic beliefs!
 

MuzztheEagle

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Peoples misconceptions of the Romans LOL. I could do a list of their recorded atrocities but don’t have enough time because it would take all day and then some. But consider the following.
1_The Roman campaigns in Gaul are referred to as an act of genocide whereby over a million people were slaughtered and millions more enslaved.
2-The extermination of the Dacian people.
3-Roman games- including fights to the death, people being fed to starving animals, gang raped, publicly tortured and boiled alive to name but a few.
4-crucifixion en masse including 6000 odd people in a single day.
5-Sex slaves.
6-The slaying of cripples.
7-The use of military to enforce their laws and way of life upon others.

They did give us some nice architecture, introduced sanitation, roads and bureaucracy though. Aaaaaaand they embraced homosexuality. The Nazi’s weren’t so bad either I suppose, their contribution to science was amazing.

@mozgrame supplied you with a vast amount of data which recorded the history of all wars on earth, but you scurried away from that argument real fast when it didn’t fit with your “Holy Wars” propaganda mindset. But to claim the world was better under Roman rule than when the Christians took over is just slaphappy and destroys any credibility that you can discuss the subject of God with a neutral/logic inspired mindset. (Not that I ever believed your claims about having such a stance.)
While you are on the topic of Moz. Do you think it is a wise idea to listen and put trust into someone who is unwilling to tell you exactly what it is they believe? Or listening to someone who want to convince you something without questioning, or them explaining, their motives for wanting you to believe something?
 

Kevinward777

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Go look up the No True Scotsman fallacy....this is what you are referring to! Or you can give me an explanation to why this is the case.
Or better yet. Lets go back to the point of justifying ones homophobic beliefs!
If I wear a Manly jersey and tell people I play first grade as a way to pick up girls and then the team walks into the bar I’m at... what would they say about me? You don’t use logic and you’re not neutral. In fact you are incapable of seeing reason outside that which suits your own agenda due to the seething hatred that blinds you.

I’m not homophobic... I believe every life is precious irrespective of ones sexual orientation. I have stated this many times over. Do I believe the bible? Yes I do! Homophobia blah blah blah... you’re like a broken record mate. Attempting to bait people so you can point your finger and scream LOOK! HE’S A BIGOT.

If you care so much for gay people and their emotive condition then why do you try so hard to inflame the situation on here? Social justice warriors of the modern age... clueless as to what it is they are supposed to be resisting.
 

Kevinward777

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While you are on the topic of Moz. Do you think it is a wise idea to listen and put trust into someone who is unwilling to tell you exactly what it is they believe? Or listening to someone who want to convince you something without questioning, or them explaining, their motives for wanting you to believe something?
Whatever @mozgrame believes or doesn’t believe is up to him... but at a minimum he provides in depth data and chooses to look at things from an impersonal standpoint. Some may even say he uses logic and neutrality to find his answers.
 

MuzztheEagle

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If I wear a Manly jersey and tell people I play first grade as a way to pick up girls and then the team walks into the bar I’m at... what would they say about me?
You don’t use logic and you’re not neutral. In fact you are incapable of seeing reason outside that which suits your own agenda due to the seething hatred that blinds you.
OK.
Point 1: Your example would be flat out lying - you would have no claim to that and you yourself would not believe it to be true - and no one would argue that. But there are plenty of people who would call themselves Christian with views different to you. There would be people who called themselves Christian who murdered their children. They would still consider themselves Christian and there would be nothing you could do to change that opinion. In their mind they are Christian, just a different interpretation of what you accept.

Point 2. You have used this to make a personal attack on me and my character. I have refrained from this and you will not find anything in the past 5-10 pages where I give you thge same treatment. I am here to discuss ideas and not question anyone's personal character. Please stop. I have no seething anger....I understand where religion comes from and have no problem with it as an internal concept or with those who practice it. (For the thousanth time!!!!) I have an issue with it being used for - exactly in the same way that you have a problem with it being used to justify murder and other unspeakable things (the only difference is you see those who do that as being "No True Christians" and I see it as the danger of religion).
 

Kevinward777

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This is one of the many examples of what the bible says about False teachers/churches in the New Testament.

2 Peter- And because of these evil teachers/churches the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago.
 

Kevinward777

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OK.
Point 1: Your example would be flat out lying - you would have no claim to that and you yourself would not believe it to be true - and no one would argue that. But there are plenty of people who would call themselves Christian with views different to you. There would be people who called themselves Christian who murdered their children. They would still consider themselves Christian and there would be nothing you could do to change that opinion. In their mind they are Christian, just a different interpretation of what you accept.

Point 2. You have used this to make a personal attack on me and my character. I have refrained from this and you will not find anything in the past 5-10 pages where I give you thge same treatment. I am here to discuss ideas and not question anyone's personal character. Please stop. I have no seething anger....I understand where religion comes from and have no problem with it as an internal concept or with those who practice it. (For the thousanth time!!!!) I have an issue with it being used for - exactly in the same way that you have a problem with it being used to justify murder and other unspeakable things (the only difference is you see those who do that as being "No True Christians" and I see it as the danger of religion).
Well in the bible... the people whom you refer to are described as wolves in sheep’s clothing. In other words, they wear the jersey but aren’t part of the team. There is just no way for a Christian to justify murdering their own children or anybody else... it’s a moot point.

You harp on and on about homophobia... but what you do actually inflames the situation. You’re the only one stoking those embers on here mate.
 

MuzztheEagle

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I’m not homophobic... I believe every life is precious irrespective of ones sexual orientation. I have stated this many times over. Do I believe the bible? Yes I do! Homophobia blah blah blah... you’re like a broken record mate. Attempting to bait people so you can point your finger and scream LOOK! HE’S A BIGOT.

If you care so much for gay people and their emotive condition then why do you try so hard to inflame the situation on here? Social justice warriors of the modern age... clueless as to what it is they are supposed to be resisting.
I am not calling you homophobic! I have said that you have used religion to justify homophobic ideas and speech. And no-one on here is willing to justify that reasoning or even come close to provide a reasoning. This is my point: you have no reasoning to do it - unless you actually want to explain to me what that reasoning is.
I have never called anyone a bigot. I'm not baiting anyone. I'm simply looking for an answer as to why you think religion can provide an acceptable stance on issues. You clearly wouldn't accept
If I was Christian could I argue that Folau was "No True Christian" and should be ashamed for using the God word in this way. Think there is a difference between this and the murders you brought up...Why?
I am questioning your idea, not your personal character. Please refrain from doing the opposite to me. I am not seeking social justice, only an honest conversation and actual answers.
 

MuzztheEagle

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Messages
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You harp on and on about homophobia... but what you do actually inflames the situation. You’re the only one stoking those embers.
How? Please explain to me why you think me discussing this encourages homophobia.
We can discuss another point if you prefer. Should heterosexual sex only occur in a married relationship? Or pick another. The topic doesn't matter, it's whether you can really justify your stance on it. Or ask me about my beliefs - if I'm unable to think logically as you suggest then I'm sure my own beliefs will crumble under questioning (although it would bother me if they did - it means that I will have learnt something).
 
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eaglebuzz

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Again you back out of the argument without even providing a single point for your justification. I'm not attempting to disprove your God and I know there is nothing I can do to change your mind on the topic. But consider this: I have nothing to lose, if you could convince me that your god is true then you would have saved my soul and enriched my life! It would be far harder to convince you, with many hours (years even!) spent studying and confirming your beliefs and a career based around those ideas! You would have so much more to lose.

But that's not why I am here.

I am here to ask why any of you feel that your religion can be used to take a stance on issues and
why you think that stance deserves to be protected rather than questioned or even ridiculed. Especially when preaching those ideas is known to cause damage to individuals.

If you want to tell me that your religion and your belief is the justification then you will also have to accept that there is a huge amount of doctrine in your and other religions that you may be less willing to take a similar stance on. Slavery? Holy Wars? Ritual Sacrifice? Church ownership of all your wealth (and your body)? An eye for an eye punishments? Genital mutilation?
Which of these would you be willing to defend with the argument of religion?

I've been asking all of you to give me your reasoning as to why Folou's hateful views and preaching deserve respect yet none of you is willing actually state it.
I'm getting the vibe that you don't have a lot else going on other than posting here. Think what you want. Really. I really just can't be bothered having these discussions on a footy forum. Talk about how hateful Folau is and how unjustified faith is until you're blue in the face. And take great comfort from knowing that you will have reached an audience of maybe 5 people on perhaps the most obscure part of this entire site.

If I knew you in real life I'd happily sit down with you about these things. Unfortunately I don't. Again, if you are serious about these questions, my advice is find people you can discuss these things in real life. I won't be replying again to this conversation. Maybe if another issue arises that I can discuss with some confidence that I won't be drawn into a protracted and fruitless discussion I might chime back in.
 

MuzztheEagle

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I'm getting the vibe that you don't have a lot else going on other than posting here. Think what you want. Really. I really just can't be bothered having these discussions on a footy forum. Talk about how hateful Folau is and how unjustified faith is until you're blue in the face. And take great comfort from knowing that you will have reached an audience of maybe 5 people on perhaps the most obscure part of this entire site.

If I knew you in real life I'd happily sit down with you about these things. Unfortunately I don't. Again, if you are serious about these questions, my advice is find people you can discuss these things in real life. I won't be replying again to this conversation. Maybe if another issue arises that I can discuss with some confidence that I won't be drawn into a protracted and fruitless discussion I might chime back in.
This is now the third time you've said pretty much the same thing to me :) Do you have anything new to add, or are you just hoping to chip away at my personal credibility. Go ahead it won't change any of my arguments or your lack of answers to my questions.

I enjoy posting here...it's cathartic, a bit like pulling weeds. It's also a learning experience me. But to each there own. I don't expect to change anyone's views here this is for my own selfish needs and agenda ;)

You also appear to be pretty poor at retaining information. I do not think bigoted, I do not think he says anything out of hate. I simply think Folau is misguided and I wish him well with his recovery, should that ever come. But I do think his actions cause harm and that the reasoning behind his opinions is dangerous.

I've also told you that I've had these discussions in real life and I will tell you that they play out much the same as they have here:
In my experience, Christians on the whole are usually very reluctant to give you their specific beliefs, even more so with the knowledge that the questioner is an atheist but even to other Christians. Sure there is plenty of discussion and debate within individual congregations and denominations about what that specific idea means. But I think that is considered to be a safe space. It's not just religion that does this politics is potentially even more guarded on what will be given up and on all sides of the spectrum. Question a belief, and wow do walls go up...not just walls but missiles of accusations back at you (with plenty of assumptions of what it is that I believe or want to achieve). Well you're no better! What about this you didn't think of this did you? Your just trying to get me to think this. Well your side did this and this and this. It is like some bizarre competition suddenly came into existence an no body is sure of the rules.

To me it feels like there is a fear that there is some grand gotcha moment living behind every question or every admission that they believe in a particular idea. It's as though ideas are personal an sacred and must be defended at all costs....don't give people to much or they will damage your ideas or change your mind...infect you with dangerous free thought. No it's better to stick to what you know, after all, you KNOW IT to be correct. I find it funny - right up to the point where I remember how dangerous it is.

Personally I love have ideas tested and reformed. It means I'm learning. It's funny though, that no one on here would ask me what I believe or asked to discuss my beliefs with the same vigor that I would like to discuss yours.

But hey, no worries...off you go (again....well maybe) I'm sure you will sleep soundly knowing that your version of truth is the correct one and that others just haven't considered things as thoroughly as you. And I'm sure that it is a comforting thought that so many Christian's share this thought (though not your beliefs) and hold it tightly to sleep soundly through the night. :)

...Just remember....as you sleep so soundly.....that the liberal left are coming....to strip away your right tohold these beliefs in your mind.......Aaargghhhhh ;)

Personally, I sleep soundly at night knowing that it is the ideas that I reject that define me and make me a good person not the ones I cling to.
 

eaglebuzz

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This is now the third time you've said pretty much the same thing to me :) Do you have anything new to add, or are you just hoping to chip away at my personal credibility. Go ahead it won't change any of my arguments or your lack of answers to my questions.

I enjoy posting here...it's cathartic, a bit like pulling weeds. It's also a learning experience me. But to each there own. I don't expect to change anyone's views here this is for my own selfish needs and agenda ;)

You also appear to be pretty poor at retaining information. I do not think bigoted, I do not think he says anything out of hate. I simply think Folau is misguided and I wish him well with his recovery, should that ever come. But I do think his actions cause harm and that the reasoning behind his opinions is dangerous.

I've also told you that I've had these discussions in real life and I will tell you that they play out much the same as they have here:
In my experience, Christians on the whole are usually very reluctant to give you their specific beliefs, even more so with the knowledge that the questioner is an atheist but even to other Christians. Sure there is plenty of discussion and debate within individual congregations and denominations about what that specific idea means. But I think that is considered to be a safe space. It's not just religion that does this politics is potentially even more guarded on what will be given up and on all sides of the spectrum. Question a belief, and wow do walls go up...not just walls but missiles of accusations back at you (with plenty of assumptions of what it is that I believe or want to achieve). Well you're no better! What about this you didn't think of this did you? Your just trying to get me to think this. Well your side did this and this and this. It is like some bizarre competition suddenly came into existence an no body is sure of the rules.

To me it feels like there is a fear that there is some grand gotcha moment living behind every question or every admission that they believe in a particular idea. It's as though ideas are personal an sacred and must be defended at all costs....don't give people to much or they will damage your ideas or change your mind...infect you with dangerous free thought. No it's better to stick to what you know, after all, you KNOW IT to be correct. I find it funny - right up to the point where I remember how dangerous it is.

Personally I love have ideas tested and reformed. It means I'm learning. It's funny though, that no one on here would ask me what I believe or asked to discuss my beliefs with the same vigor that I would like to discuss yours.

But hey, no worries...off you go (again....well maybe) I'm sure you will sleep soundly knowing that your version of truth is the correct one and that others just haven't considered things as thoroughly as you. And I'm sure that it is a comforting thought that so many Christian's share this thought (though not your beliefs) and hold it tightly to sleep soundly through the night. :)

...Just remember....as you sleep so soundly.....that the liberal left are coming....to strip away your right tohold these beliefs in your mind.......Aaargghhhhh ;)

Personally, I sleep soundly at night knowing that it is the ideas that I reject that define me and make me a good person not the ones I cling to.
I take great comfort knowing that not a jot of difference is going to be made to the rise of the liberal left as a result of posts on Silvertails forums.

I'm happy you're happy. Enjoy your remaining 30-60 years of life.
 

MuzztheEagle

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I take great comfort knowing that not a jot of difference is going to be made to the rise of the liberal left as a result of posts on Silvertails forums.
Funnily enough I'm not worried about them either (although our perspectives on who they are may differ). But I am worried about their ideas, as I do about the other side of politics. But, the fact that they share so many similar ideas is even more frightening!

I'm happy you're happy. Enjoy your remaining 30-60 years of life.
Well, if I happen to meet your chosen God when that happens I will be happy to thell him (it's pretty obvious it's a him isn't it) to get F***d
 

MuzztheEagle

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I feel I should apologies to some on here....I spoke to my astrologist yesterday and they let me know that Mars is slightly out of alignment for my sign and it has been leading me to make rash decisions and speak to abruptly. But the good news is that it should only last a couple more days. Until then I will try and keep a low profile. (It can be hard for us fire signs can be hard to keep a lid on our emotions some times :) )
 

MuzztheEagle

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Messages
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I feel I should apologies to some on here....I spoke to my astrologist yesterday and they let me know that Mars is slightly out of alignment for my sign and it has been leading me to make rash decisions and speak to abruptly. But the good news is that it should only last a couple more days. Until then I will try and keep a low profile. (It can be hard for us fire signs can be hard to keep a lid on our emotions some times :) )
WTF Woodsie...
I try to apologies and you think it's funny. Real classy :(
 

Woodsie

played strong, done good.
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@MuzztheEagle .. While I have you in a contemplative mood ... what's your take on sports stars thanking God after a victory .. it would make a bit more sense to me if after the event 10 other losers woud get up and say .."fukk God, I prayed too " ... or called the winner a God Botherer and diety fanboi ....
 

MuzztheEagle

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Messages
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@MuzztheEagle .. While I have you in a contemplative mood ... what's your take on sports stars thanking God after a victory .. it would make a bit more sense to me if after the event 10 other losers woud get up and say .."fukk God, I prayed too " ... or called the winner a God Botherer and diety fanboi ....
It's nice of God to bless a sportsperson isn't. I mean he could be off helping people suffering from famine, war and mental illness (lol, probably not the last one). But that millionaire sportsperson REALLY needs help don't they!
Must be nice to have that hotline to god for when you really need it.
If a Christian beats a Muslim/Buddhist/whatever (or the reverse) and then thanks God. Are they implying that their god is superior? Seems a bit insensitive to me!
 

MuzztheEagle

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The Devil made astology for idle minds ... next thing you know you will tell me Gwenyth Paltrow makes sense ...
Mate, don't be so cynical!
Energy healing fixed my bad back and a psychic recently allowed me to connect with my dead cat. I'm walking evidence that spiritualism works!

Edit: sure the voltaren might have helped and I never actually had a cat but everything just felt right. Like I was connect to things somehow. How can you explain that?
 

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