Forwards

[skull61]

I reckon Paseka will come good still pretty young more upside than Aloiai

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

No stupid pointless penalties/sin binnings as a start? Sin binned twice this year from memory and suspended twice... not great when he hasn't played many games to begin with?

He has some mongrel - like Keppie which is what we need but yes he needs to be able to harness it

 

[Technical Coach]

100%. The mistakes are a by product of losing the middle. We force the issue constantly because going wide is our only hope of gaining momentum. I also agree that Souths looked brittle and were there for the taking. Walker looked nervous (as did his team mates) until they jagged that first lucky try.

I also agree that we pulled the trigger too often when we just needed to stay calm and even up possession. In saying that, the flamboyance seems to me to be a tactic because it’s been happening all year regardless of the state of the game. I hope Des shifts the game plan away from it and looks at ways to play more % footy.

I would stick with the early lateral movement, it just has to be toned down a touch so there is some grounded substance to our game that can go set for set when needed.

Direct straight punch through the middle with short options to mix it up at the line and keep the defence honest has always been a weakness in our squads. The mix of plodders, angled go forward runners, stop prop and go types and toilers along with the overuse of Jake as a linkman has Manly over reliant on spreads to generate go forward.

Souths were there for the taking big time and i don't mean that in a close game, Manly could of had an easy win last night if there was a little substance and composure in our play to wrestle back momentum. Souths performance was actually well below my expectations that is what makes this defeat so disappointing.

The good thing out of this is with the new stadium and a hardened preseason for many of the younger players we can enjoy a festive like atmosphere at home games in 2022 and generate hopefully good crowds and headlines.(more money in the coffers)

Would rather win the GF in a typical year, not a covid one that feels half empty.

 

[Technical Coach]

Did we actually build any pressure tonight?. I don’t recall a dropout from South’s.

In the end, the was testament to how ineffective the forwards were tonight, and although they were out there, I think Paseka and Aloiai were seriously busted.

Paseka only played 20 minutes despite being a fresh forward.
Aloiai has no where near bent the line like earlier in the season before his injury. He was AFB like then.
Add Schuster to that.

This is about as far as Manly could have gotten under the circumstances, and although sad I’m very proud.

NYEagle

Yes many players looked tanked and going through the motions the back end of the season, in saying that a little more composure and direct straightness would take the workload off the defence and keep the tank a little more topped up.

It's the reason why Melb are so consistent, they try and play in an effective manner that always gives themselves half a chance in games.

The defensive effort from Manly on their tryline in the first 15-20mins at times was very impressive to watch(much better than what has been on display for the past 5 weeks or so) so there was enough in the tank if we managed our performance better with some composure and effective structures.

 

[mickqld]

Dropped balls, sloppy passing, going over the sideline and fumbling, bumbling attempts to cover up kicks we're enough to give this game away. We had the ability to put them away and the 2 disallowed 1st half tries showed that. We just lacked composure and leadership. We blew it big time last night and we all know it and it's why it's so disappointing. If we'd gone out giving 100% effort then you could say well done but it was a sh*t way to end the year.

 

[Snake]

I would stick with the early lateral movement, it just has to be toned down a touch so there is some grounded substance to our game that can go set for set when needed.

Direct straight punch through the middle with short options to mix it up at the line and keep the defence honest has always been a weakness in our squads. The mix of plodders, angled go forward runners, stop prop and go types and toilers along with the overuse of Jake as a linkman has Manly over reliant on spreads to generate go forward.

Souths were there for the taking big time and i don't mean that in a close game, Manly could of had an easy win last night if there was a little substance and composure in our play to wrestle back momentum. Souths performance was actually well below my expectations that is what makes this defeat so disappointing.

The good thing out of this is with the new stadium and a hardened preseason for many of the younger players we can enjoy a festive like atmosphere at home games in 2022 and generate hopefully good crowds and headlines.(more money in the coffers)

Would rather win the GF in a typical year, not a covid one that feels half empty.

The "short options at the line" doesn't seem to be used by any contemporary RL side. It was a Des tactic in 2012 but I haven't seen it in years. Watching the three best teams this year during the finals and they all played a relatively conservative footy compared to Manly so I'll take that on board in my assertion that our strategy is not the way forward.

I agree with everything else you've said....especially the part about winning a COVID comp in Brisbane. I'd take it but would feel slightly less emphatic than a big Sydney show stopper.

 

[40 years an eagle]

Yeah $850k is ridiculous for Marty. I’m not sure what he is worth but it’s significantly less than that.

It is not 850k, it was 600 or 650k per season and we shuffled it. NEXT year he is on 850(apparently) because he got less the first 2 years. Anyways, I would be happy to be without him next year he tries hard but does no damage in attack OR defence.

 

[SeaEagle21]

Dropped balls, sloppy passing, going over the sideline and fumbling, bumbling attempts to cover up kicks we're enough to give this game away. We had the ability to put them away and the 2 disallowed 1st half tries showed that. We just lacked composure and leadership. We blew it big time last night and we all know it and it's why it's so disappointing. If we'd gone out giving 100% effort then you could say well done but it was a sh*t way to end the year.

Spot on mate, we just didn't give it a real go and today has been deflating with the way we went out. Just disappointed after how hard the team fought to get back into contention and end the season the way we did. Usually we get dudded by the refs but no one to blame last night but ourselves.

 

[40 years an eagle]

We do need a TOUGHER forward pack.Fainu AND the Frog would be great together, I think Aoli will be fine and Kelpie will be great in time. Marty is a powderpuff, Slippers is to slow and Jake, while great in defence, adds zero in attack and I don't think the Shoo belongs in the pack. Our BIGGEST problem is ball security.

 

[Eagle 1]

The reality is we led the league in errors all year and gave away a heap of 6 agains all year..so what was your point?

My point is, you wouldn't be making all these observations if Manly had won and gone on to the GF. Most errors come from two things pressure and composure, and we had both in abundance on friday night. With a bit of lady luck we could of had 2 try's in the first half and probably more on the back of these, such is the momentum surge in our game today. Next season we will be a more mature team and with experience gained from playing finals footy. Don't give up on us yet Rocky.

 

[Rocky]

My point is, you wouldn't be making all these observations if Manly had won and gone on to the GF. Most errors come from two things pressure and composure, and we had both in abundance on friday night. With a bit of lady luck we could of had 2 try's in the first half and probably more on the back of these, such is the momentum surge in our game today. Next season we will be a more mature team and with experience gained from playing finals footy. Don't give up on us yet Rocky.

Hi @Eagle1 you are right that i wouldn't be making those observations if Manly had won. It does concern me that we play a high risk game which has a much higher error rate and this didn't work against the best teams. The reality is we lost by 10, 20 + to the Storm and by 20 to the Bunnies in our games in the last 6 weeks of the comp versus the top teams. This is enough of a sample size to show that we are way off the pace.

So is it our players or the game plan? You make a good point that our younger guys will be much better for the experience. However until we tighten up our game to and cut down on the errors then we can't consider ourselves a serious contender to win the whole thing.

You point to luck and to be fair we need a lot to go our way (such as the first Melbourne game when we got an intercept) to beat the Melbourne, Penrith and Souths of the world.

I really think we can beat these teams so it was really disappointing to me that we persisted with the high risk game versus the Rabbits that was shown not to work against Melbourne in two recent games.

I'm not giving up on the boys but Des needs to find a balance between playing a tight middle grinding game with the flare we have in the team. Otherwise expect the same results versus the top teams that we saw this year.

 

[Merdy33]

It’s been touched on here, but what I think we do miss is the fear element. By that I mean we lack the player that in Peter Sterling’s words “you like to know where they are” when running the ball. The one who might make a runner or ball player change their mind and give up an error, the one who gets under the skin of his opponent and takes their mind off the job.
All the great Manly premiership winning sides had one - Reilly/Randall in the 70s, Rambo Gibbs in 87, Carroll/Roberts in the 90s and Matai in the 000s.
Jake is technically excellent and hits hard, but he doesn’t have that x-factor. Haumoule has his moments, but again, I don’t think he’s feared.
I don’t think that any of our opposition run out thinking they will get their teeth rattled if they run at a particular defender, and I think you need that to win a premiership.

 

[Eagle 1]

Hi @Eagle1 you are right that i wouldn't be making those observations if Manly had won. It does concern me that we play a high risk game which has a much higher error rate and this didn't work against the best teams. The reality is we lost by 10, 20 + to the Storm and by 20 to the Bunnies in our games in the last 6 weeks of the comp versus the top teams. This is enough of a sample size to show that we are way off the pace.

So is it our players or the game plan? You make a good point that our younger guys will be much better for the experience. However until we tighten up our game to and cut down on the errors then we can't consider ourselves a serious contender to win the whole thing.

You point to luck and to be fair we need a lot to go our way (such as the first Melbourne game when we got an intercept) to beat the Melbourne, Penrith and Souths of the world.

I really think we can beat these teams so it was really disappointing to me that we persisted with the high risk game versus the Rabbits that was shown not to work against Melbourne in two recent games.

I'm not giving up on the boys but Des needs to find a balance between playing a tight middle grinding game with the flare we have in the team. Otherwise expect the same results versus the top teams that we saw this year.

Yep, goes without saying, our errors have been our curse against the top 3, and we could of beaten these teams with an even share of possession, and unfortunately this didn't happen. therefore we threw caution to the wind and we got what we deserved.

 

[Technical Coach]

The "short options at the line" doesn't seem to be used by any contemporary RL side. It was a Des tactic in 2012 but I haven't seen it in years. Watching the three best teams this year during the finals and they all played a relatively conservative footy compared to Manly so I'll take that on board in my assertion that our strategy is not the way forward.

I agree with everything else you've said....especially the part about winning a COVID comp in Brisbane. I'd take it but would feel slightly less emphatic than a big Sydney show stopper.

It's about having some balance,variety and foundation substance to our go forward sets along with taking heat off the lead runner.(it is way too telegraphed from both the type of passing from dummy half to who is receiving the ball in the hit up)

The occasional player pushing up in support merely to allow depth and time for the behind the back depth play to a ball playing option is not what i call variety.(it does overly induce lateral movement at the expense of directness if it is not balanced)

Short passing through the forwards can create a higher error rate due to forwards not having good hands relative to ball players, fatigued forwards more likely to make a mistake, playing at or through the line obviously attracts higher risk also. The other issue is consistently having "genuine" supports pushing up with the lead running is fatiguing and also has forwards pushed past the next play the ball limiting options for the next play.

It's about getting the balance and creating a more straight direct playing environment that is effective and compliments our lateral play.

I don't necessarily think it is about cutting out errors from a more conservative approach but being more than a one trick pony, so that we don't dig ourselves holes so deep Manly eventually create a flood of errors by trying to dig ourselves out of it with low percentage plays under fatigue, or tensing up and creating unforced errors.

Marty has delivered some nice short passes to hole runners but this tends to be more when Manly have already established a lead or later in games with less defensive pressure.

More passing variety from hooker and "direct" passing through the forwards will enhance our go forward sets and not take away from our lateral approach but make it more "effective".

Manlys defensive deficiencies are exposed more by not being effective consistently in our go forward sets combined with tense nervous attacking sets not generating points early in games to apply pressure on the top teams. We lose the middle, we lose field position, we create more errors trying to dig ourselves out of it leading to a defence that is exposed to more sets while under fatigue in poor field position.

 

[Snake]

Manlys defensive deficiencies are exposed more by not being effective consistently in our go forward sets combined with tense nervous attacking sets not generating points early in games to apply pressure on the top teams. We lose the middle, we lose field position, we create more errors trying to dig ourselves out of it leading to a defence that is exposed to more sets while under fatigue in poor field position.

This is spot on.

 

[Technical Coach]

This is spot on.

This is why i'm not always a believer in the mentality "defence wins games" because it is an over simplification that doesn't take in many other contributing factors.

To me go forward consistent effectiveness comes under "attack" and in many instances improving this element of the game helps the defence also.

Observers were harping on about slide defence and that Manly needed to incorporate this method as the dominant style and totally change but Manly eased up on this big time compared to the start of the year.

I like the slide approach at times but it often allows too much yardage per set of six against you as you keep backing off on lateral spreads encouraging soft yardage gains but at the same time less "outright" defensive errors. Now this is not a problem if you are effective in your own go forward sets but if you are not getting down field easily then it is asking for trouble and you lose field position regularly.

If you win the go forward battle often then yeah you can either use a proactive defensive pattern to induce errors and dominate defensively or if you fear the opposition has such good attacking structures and being stretched far too easily you can incorporate the slide in better field position under less fatigue.

Improving the go forward means you don't fear as much when you occasionally lose the middle or momentum swings against you, but if you don't win the battle in the go forward stakes you just keep digging yourself a hole and always defending from poor field position and high tackle counts.

 

[Under the Sticks]

Tuilagi, Keppie, Sipley, woods, aloiai, Croker

We aren’t winning a premiership with this lot.

I’d take Froggy as a dual hooker but not on his own.

We have done enough recruiting in the backs, let’s clear this lot to get some line speed and go forward.

 

[Ben]

I was a big Sipley advocate when he 1st arrived at Manly from the Warriors system seeing the potential he had. He finally started to show what he could do early this season but has failed to keep that energy up constantly.
He would be incredible value for money if he could find this form on a consistent basis but has dropped off again. We needed must more from him last night concerning he was our starting prop with 7 runs for 65 meters

 

[winnyason]

We need another 2 middles, I assume lodge signs on for another season or 2 along with paseka. Aloiai is here no one touches that deal.
Keppie is being shopped and Woods really should be 5th or 6th depth.
Torn on Sipley not really going great at moment

 

[double hoops]

When woods arrived. Sips was on fire. Might well have been injury free and feeling great. You just don't know what these props are playing with.

I dare say AOA shoulders have slowed him down and could be the reason his effort against the Storm earlier in the season haven't been seen since.