DCE vs Orford

First Grader
Premium Member
I disagree, because your saying an average isn't an average. How about looking at the results over the entirety of their respective careers ? Not just at Manly?.Or how is that unfair because the numbers won't work in your favour ?

Also, are you suggesting a teams marquee chief okay maker doesn't have a significant affect on the success or failures of a team ?
Nothing is my favour, I'm still undecided...both excellent players.

Chief playmakers certainly influence a team but they aren't solely responsible for the results.

Likewise 4 years to 12 makes it an inadequate comparison.

If thats the measure you want run with go for it but I just think its too simplistic.

Like the rep games measure.....there is more to it than just that
 
Journey Man
If I had to pick a team out.of.our say current team, and the 2008-2011 team, this would be it:

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Jamie Lyon
05. Reuben Garrick
06. Kieran Foran
07. Matt Orford
08. Brent Kite
09. Matt Ballin
10. Josh Aloiai
11. Haumole Olakau'atu
12. Anthony Watmough
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Jamie Buhrer
15. Jake Trbojevic
16. Josh Perry
17. Steve Menzies
 
Bencher
If I had to pick a team out.of.our say current team, and the 2008-2011 team, this would be it:

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Jamie Lyon
05. Reuben Garrick
06. Kieran Foran
07. Matt Orford
08. Brent Kite
09. Matt Ballin
10. Josh Aloiai
11. Haumole Olakau'atu
12. Anthony Watmough
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Jamie Buhrer
15. Jake Trbojevic
16. Josh Perry
17. Steve Menzies
Turbo over Robertson surely
 
Bencher
Premium Member
How so? Both chief playmakers. Both in apparent great teams (you state our team is fantastic and that we have generational players yourself).

Anyways, the answer is:
Our average finish with Ox is 2.75 out of 16
Our average finish with DCE is 7.33 out of 16
By that metric Andrew Johns is a 6.71 and Jonathan Thurston is an 8.64. So clearly the Ox is an immortal in waiting.
 
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I'm not really Mal Cochrane...
I'm only half way through this thread, and want to mention 2 things.

People mentioning DCE's defence as being a strength?? Strewth!

You can't compare rep games, different era, different reasons for players being picked. Someone mentioned frizell vs G Stewart rep games and demonstrates the point perfectly.
Orford I feel was unlucky and perhaps out of favour with selectors at the time, but it didn't stop him from winning the Dally M, and he didn't just have a fluke year that year and was ordinary the rest.
 
Bencher
Premium Member
Mate, list every Sea Eagles finish on the table with Orford as our chief playmaker , then compare that with the finishes under DCE as out chief playmaker then let's talk about the results.
We had a far superior team in those days, backs and forwards
 
True Supporter
Staff member
Administrator
Premium Member
There's two DCE's in my book. DCE pre Titans backflip 8 year massive contract and DCE post Titans backflip 8 year massive contract. Or more simply up to and including 2015 and then 2016 and beyond

All the accolades that get trotted out about DCE as justification of his supposed value as the highest paid player in the league are all achievements before 2015 i.e. 2011 Premiership and Dally M rookie of the year, 2013 Clive Churchill medal and 3rd in Dally M voting, 2014 Dally M Halfback of the year.

He was good back then, no doubt. Mainly because he was a very small cog in a very efficient and ruthless Manly machine that was arguably the best side this club has ever fielded over a 5 year period. A core of the Stewart brothers, Lyon, Matai, Foran, Ballin, Watmough, Kite, King etc. That side dominated and allowed DCE to play his natural running game. There was leadership, toughness, composure, belief and skill just oozing out of the joint. He played off the back of that and looked a world beater because he didn't have to make the running and call the shots.

Fast forward to 2016 when he became the man - "the marquee player" - and he hasn't produced anywhere near that sort of consistent performance. He's had 2 top 10 Dally M finishes in that time, with last years 4th place the best on the coat tails of Turbo dominating at PVL ball and dragging the whole joint along for the ride. The other was 6th in 2017

Dally M halfbacks of the year since 2016 - Cronk, Morgan, Brooks, Moses, Cleary, and Cleary.

Manly ladder positions since 2016 - 13th, 6th, 15th, 6th, 13th, 4th (thank you Tommy !) and this year ??

He's been disappointing on the whole since he signed that lifetime deal and we haven't got anywhere near enough consistency or bang for our buck in my book. Can kick a field goal and a 40/20 but you need more than that from your Captain and chief playmaker. I get that the million dollar contract isn't his fault, but I struggle with people trying to justify it by saying he is worth it....he simply isn't in my opinion.

Anyway we've got 3 more years to debate the subject, but I came to the conclusion a while back that we'll never win another premiership with him in the 7.
 
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Bencher
Premium Member
Ox was a far better defender than DCE, Ox is a better number 7 than DCE in my book also due to his game management.

DCE is a very good individual player that can change games with his X factor, Ox didn’t have that in him.

Both very good players, picking a number 7 I would say Ox and picking the better individual player with that attacking X factor would be DCE.
 

R3

Bird gang affiliate
DCE = a better 6
Orford = a better 7

Orford was a better halfback, Cherry is a better 5/8th
 
Armchair Expert
DCE is perfectly capable of doing most or all of the things Orford does in this video, but doesn't. Why?

 
Official NRL commentator of the UK Royal Family
Premium Member
So by your rationale, the fact that Andrew John’s was the NSW halfback for over half of Orfords playing career, means nothing.

Joey was better than Orford, so DCE is also better than Orford.

Makes sense 😂

Agree to disagree.
by the same logic Cooper cronk and JT were present for a large part of DCE's career. apples and oranges?

Oh and I'm not trolling you btw. honest. i hate it when I have a discussion with someone on one thing then on a totally different topic we go again....:D
 
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Official NRL commentator of the UK Royal Family
Premium Member
Yes might be one or two looking back through rose coloured glasses. Here's a couple of nostalgic threads with slightly more contemporaneous assessments of the Ox. One of them suggests his greed cost us JWH!!

what a great crystal ball moment. great find.
 
Bencher
by the same logic Cooper cronk and JT were present for a large part of DCE's career. apples and oranges?

Oh and I'm not trolling you btw. honest. i hate it when I have a discussion with someone on one thing then on a totally different topic we go again....:D
Haha. All good. I like the discussion too.

My point was that comparing rep players careers with other rep players careers from different generations is pointless due to the pool of players they had around them at the time. That’s all. Wasn’t attacking DCE or Orford in this thread.

I could be the 2nd best halfback in the comp, never play for NSW but still be a hall of famer compared to a NSW rep of another era who had a rather mediocre talent pool of halfbacks at the time. That’s all I meant.
 
Bencher
While I acknowledge that Ox played in the greatest team in RL history, and had an incredible 2008 individually, he does not hold a candle to DCE.

You have to remember the quality of the team he had around him, which DCE inherited in his first few years, two of which led to grand finals.

Before 2008 Ox was not that good, and after 2008 he played ok in 2009 and then never won again in the NRL when not playing for Manly I think.

I think even Bob Dylan would agree the teams around DCE since 2015 have ranged from a bunch of also rans to mediocre at best. I don’t think even Wally Lewis or Andrew John’s could have dragged those teams to grand finals. If anything, the full strength team of 2022 is better than any since 2014, and I still think we can do a little damage, even Turbo-less, if we make the finals.

Go DCE, and go Manly

NYEagle
 
Reserve Grader
I have a memory that Ox was actually selected for NSW Origin but had to withdraw because of injury. Can anyone confirm that?
 
First Grader
Premium Member
I have a memory that Ox was actually selected for NSW Origin but had to withdraw because of injury. Can anyone confirm that?
Yep def happened at least once, though I think he was selecyed cause Johns or maybe Kimmorley or someone was injured
 
First Grader
Premium Member
Despite standing just 169 tall, Orford
was nicknamed Ox due to his incredible strength. He was picked for State of Origin in 2008 but had to withdraw due to injury

From a old foxsports article
 
First Grader
Premium Member
Ooooft that was an average Blues squad
 

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We brought back Geoff Toovey!
DCE has had a fine career. There are times that he does frustrate me and I do think his contract has hampered us but if I’m picking between the two on ability alone then it would be DCE.
 

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