DCE vs Orford

[court83]

It’s hard to tell..
I really loved watching ox play except the last year or 2 where he struggled with his groin injury.. and every dropout or penalty kick only went 15 meters and really killed us in some close games…

I feel like ox had the advantage of an all time team around him in their prime…
Glenn, choc, kitey,king,matai, Lyon, snake, Robertson… all those blokes were in their career primes when they played with Orford, where as dce got to play with them at the wrong end of their careers.. snake after 2 knee blowouts, matai after years of neck injury etc etc
Would have loved to see how they played if dce got all those blokes in their early 20s instead of injury ravaged and pushing 30

Dce got a prime turbo brothers combo but 1 is always injured and combined they take up most our cap so the rest of the players around them can’t come close to a player of a watmough or Lyon or Glenn skill wise

 

[Bearfax]

Don’t think comparing rep games is in the least bit relevant. The question wasn’t who was the best in their state or country.
It’s a comparison between the two players of different generations.

On the contrary, the fact that DCE has played so many rep games shows how those who decide who is best for those games are thinking. They dont base their decision on his performance in rep games, at least not alone. They base it on his performance in comp games. Those making the decisions see him as easily one of the best half backs in the game. Orford was solid and did his job well and probably was a little more consistent, but the judges of who are the best players in the game worthy of rep game selection make it quite clear who they thought was the better player.

 

[Batty]

On the contrary, the fact that DCE has played so many rep games shows how those who decide who is best for those games are thinking. They dont base their decision on his performance in rep games, at least not alone. They base it on his performance in comp games. Those making the decisions see him as easily one of the best half backs in the game. Orford was solid and did his job well and probably was a little more consistent, but the judges of who are the best players in the game worthy of rep game selection make it quite clear who they thought was the better player.

So by your rationale, the fact that Andrew John’s was the NSW halfback for over half of Orfords playing career, means nothing.

Joey was better than Orford, so DCE is also better than Orford.

Makes sense

Agree to disagree.

 

[Heckenberg]

Dce is way better but his big contract has ****ed us. Orford left manly on a high during our dominant period. Chez has been the captain and main player in a pretty bog average stretch for us. hard to compare really but I think Orford has the edge as far as a manly legend goes but if chez was to bring us another premiership it’s a very different story.

 

[Simonmyers11]

I would have to say DCE, only because he has produced more quality games for a longer period and had to do it with a less talented side apart from his first few seasons. Orford was brilliant is 2008, but had a brilliant side around him, arguably one of the strongest Manly sides ever. His form slide after that 2008 period and he left in 2010 injured. DCE ceiling is way higher and he has accomplishment more achievements and accolades

 

[sheridanstand78]

If you are comparing the two for value for money, Ox wins comfortably. They have different attributes and DCE owns 40/20 kicks and clutch field goals whereas Ox was a much better game manager. Both fantastic players for our club!

 

[Peter C]

Orford is better in every single aspect than DCE. DCE isn't in Ox's shadow. You can't even compare the two. Ox never ran in concentric circles. Ox was direct. Ox was a winner. Ox had a team first mentality.

Right now, you're comparing the best of Orford to the worst of DCE, Orfords last couple of years were very ordinary, especially when he went to Canberra, right now DCE is being judged basically on this year, and especially what happened in the final minute last Friday.
I can only ever recall Orford kicking one field goal, and I don't think he ever kicked a 40-20, he was basically a good hard runner of the ball.

 

[Bearfax]

So by your rationale, the fact that Andrew John’s was the NSW halfback for over half of Orfords playing career, means nothing.

Joey was better than Orford, so DCE is also better than Orford.

Makes sense

Agree to disagree.

Bad comparison and I'll show you why which suggests you have a set against DCE like some on this forum. Johns played until 2006. Orford until 2009 including being in the winning Manly side in 2008, and in the grand final team in 2007. Yet still in no rep sides. DCE was up against Thurston and Cronk, and they were both Queenslanders, and still managed that many rep games. Thing is I accept you have a particular preference and that's OK but its only a personal position. Those who judge Rugby League players for rep games think otherwise as do I

 

[Batty]

Bad comparison and I'll show you why which suggests you have a set against DCE like some on this forum. Johns played until 2006. Orford until 2009 including being in the winning Manly side in 2008, and in the grand final team in 2007. Yet still in no rep sides. DCE was up against Thurston and Cronk, and they were both Queenslanders, and still managed that many rep games. Thing is I accept you have a particular preference and that's OK but its only a personal position. Those who judge Rugby League players for rep games think otherwise as do I

Hahah. You’re hilarious.

DCE only played those games after the talent retired.
You’ve given me my position. Cheers.

Talented players sometimes don’t play rep games because they have more talented players in their state or nation. You stated it yourself with DCE having 2 players (Cronk and Thurston) better than him. Cheers for making my point.

All of which has absolutely zero to do with a generational comparison between DCE and Orford - which this thread is about.
Hahaha. Outstanding.

 

[manly al]

Manly paid overs [ or was considered to have paid overs ] for the Ox , about 430 k and at the time a fair whack of a lesser cap allocation . Seems fair to say that D C E has also been paid overs and on balance from 2016 or so . Actually thought at the time that Monas was doing a good enough job as the 7 but the Ox did have some good seasons but like D C E , definitely some occasional short comings in his overall game performances , particularly his last couple of Manly seasons . Not a lot between them probably in the general sense , D C E would have the better skill set and defence wise , the Ox could be a very sharp attacker at times , D C E more of a good step and swerve , both good support players . D C E better kicking game and both reasonable goal kickers on occasions . Actually thought that the Ox played more consistent footy over all with the Storm but no one can take away his excellent season for Manly in 2008 .

 

[The '47ers]

O Captain, my Captain

 

[Volley]

Bad comparison and I'll show you why which suggests you have a set against DCE like some on this forum. Johns played until 2006. Orford until 2009 including being in the winning Manly side in 2008, and in the grand final team in 2007. Yet still in no rep sides. DCE was up against Thurston and Cronk, and they were both Queenslanders, and still managed that many rep games. Thing is I accept you have a particular preference and that's OK but its only a personal position. Those who judge Rugby League players for rep games think otherwise as do I

You must rate Kurt Gidley over Snake as he played more games for NSW?

 

[Bearfax]

Hahah. You’re hilarious.

DCE only played those games after the talent retired.
You’ve given me my position. Cheers.

Talented players sometimes don’t play rep games because they have more talented players in their state or nation. You stated it yourself with DCE having 2 players (Cronk and Thurston) better than him. Cheers for making my point.

All of which has absolutely zero to do with a generational comparison between DCE and Orford - which this thread is about.
Hahaha. Outstanding.

Batty this isn't a contest and saying Ha Ha more or less suggesting you think you've made me look like a fool or something is rather offensive. Really? I'm not trying to attack you, I'm passing on information.

OK, lets deal with facts not partiality. You need to research before you make an argument. For example DCE played his first test match in 2011 and his first State of Origin in 2013 well within that period when Cronk and Thruston were playing .Certainly he was up against it with two great half backs in Thurston and Cronk but it doesn't change the fact selectors chose him for so many SOOs and tests. Were no other half backs playing after they retired?

I'm not disputing Orford was a fine half back but even when Johns wasnt playing he couldn't make a test or SOO match because he obviously wasnt considered the best half by the selectors, even when playing for a premiership winning side. I'm not a selector and maybe they were wrong, but facts are facts. You wish to idolise Orford and put down DCE, that's your right. But that's purely a personal perspective and not one supported by those who make selections. DCE wasnt being selected only because he played well in rep games. He was selected because at the time he was considered the best for that position. Johns, Thurston and Cronk were top line half backs. So is DCE, otherwise he wouldnt have been selected for rep sides. .

 

[Bearfax]

You must rate Kurt Gidley over Snake as he played more games for NSW?

Horses for courses Volley. Gidley was a fine full back and deserved to play in tests. Snake had the misfortune of when reaching his peak running into that nasty court matter and a serious couple of injuries. Had he not faced those two impediments I've no doubt he would have been Australian full back for years. The year all his troubles stated he was the pinup footballer and well ahead of Slater, his only competitor. That period ruined his career and Slater jumped ahead. I strongly believe that wouldn't have happened had Snake not suffered such bad injuries and been out of the game because of that court case , he would have left Gidley in his wake. Totally different scenario and you know it.

 

[Batty]

Batty this isn't a contest and saying Ha Ha more or less suggesting you think you've made me look like a fool or something is rather offensive. Really? I'm not trying to attack you, I'm passing on information.

OK, lets deal with facts not partiality. You need to research before you make an argument. For example DCE played his first test match in 2011 and his first State of Origin in 2013 well within that period when Cronk and Thruston were playing .Certainly he was up against it with two great half backs in Thurston and Cronk but it doesn't change the fact selectors chose him for so many SOOs and tests. Were no other half backs playing after they retired?

I'm not disputing Orford was a fine half back but even when Johns wasnt playing he couldn't make a test or SOO match because he obviously wasnt considered the best half by the selectors, even when playing for a premiership winning side. I'm not a selector and maybe they were wrong, but facts are facts. You wish to idolise Orford and put down DCE, that's your right. But that's purely a personal perspective and not one supported by those who make selections. DCE wasnt being selected only because he played well in rep games. He was selected because at the time he was considered the best for that position. Johns, Thurston and Cronk were top line half backs. So is DCE, otherwise he wouldnt have been selected for rep sides. .

I was the one saying agree to disagree…? You’re persisting with trying to compare DCEs rep career with Orfords. Makes zero sense as you pointed out, both players have different players better than them at different times in their career.
That’s why making that comparison is flawed.

Look at DCE and Orford and make a judgement, but comparing who had better players in the halfback position at the times they were potential rep players is irrelevant.

For the record, I haven’t made any comparison whatsoever. Simply pointed out the above.

If I was to compare it would be something like this:
In terms of value for money, Orford wins hands down.
If it’s field goals DCE wins.
If it’s organising a team around the park, it’s Orford.
If it’s 40/20s it’s DCE.
If it’s managing a team in crucial periods of games, it’s Orford.

So many variables (including the generational gap/changes to the game to the equation) that it’s only everyone’s personal opinion.

For me personally, I’m all about cap management and value for money - and in that respect - I’d take Orford in a heartbeat.

 

[Ryan]

Right now, you're comparing the best of Orford to the worst of DCE, Orfords last couple of years were very ordinary, especially when he went to Canberra, right now DCE is being judged basically on this year, and especially what happened in the final minute last Friday.
I can only ever recall Orford kicking one field goal, and I don't think he ever kicked a 40-20, he was basically a good hard runner of the ball.

Mate, list every Sea Eagles finish on the table with Orford as our chief playmaker , then compare that with the finishes under DCE as out chief playmaker then let's talk about the results.

 

[Volley]

Horses for courses Volley. Gidley was a fine full back and deserved to play in tests. Snake had the misfortune of when reaching his peak running into that nasty court matter and a serious couple of injuries. Had he not faced those two impediments I've no doubt he would have been Australian full back for years. The year all his troubles stated he was the pinup footballer and well ahead of Slater, his only competitor. That period ruined his career and Slater jumped ahead. I strongly believe that wouldn't have happened had Snake not suffered such bad injuries and been out of the game because of that court case , he would have left Gidley in his wake. Totally different scenario and you know it.

Tyson Frizell has played 14 SOO games while Glenn Stewart only played 5.

 

[Batty]

Tyson Frizell has played 14 SOO games while Glenn Stewart only played 5.

 

[Bearfax]

I was the one saying agree to disagree…? You’re persisting with trying to compare DCEs rep career with Orfords. Makes zero sense as you pointed out, both players have different players better than them at different times in their career.
That’s why making that comparison is flawed.

Look at DCE and Orford and make a judgement, but comparing who had better players in the halfback position at the times they were potential rep players is irrelevant.

For the record, I haven’t made any comparison whatsoever. Simply pointed out the above.

If I was to compare it would be something like this:
In terms of value for money, Orford wins hands down.
If it’s field goals DCE wins.
If it’s organising a team around the park, it’s Orford.
If it’s 40/20s it’s DCE.
If it’s managing a team in crucial periods of games, it’s Orford.

So many variables (including the generational gap/changes to the game to the equation) that it’s only everyone’s personal opinion.

For me personally, I’m all about cap management and value for money - and in that respect - I’d take Orford in a heartbeat.

No you weren't Batty. You were arguing that you thought Orford was better the DCE and then attacking me because I presented an argument to suggest the contrary. And now you're trying to muddy the water to save face. Mate, I dont appreciate being put down and that's what you were doing. I was merely arguing a point. If you have to put someone down to prove your point I have no wish to discuss anything with you. Respect or I dont respond to you at all.

 

[Disco]

Mate, list every Sea Eagles finish on the table with Orford as our chief playmaker , then compare that with the finishes under DCE as out chief playmaker then let's talk about the results.

Thats a simplistic measure