DCE vs Orford

[Volley]

Yes might be one or two looking back through rose coloured glasses. Here's a couple of nostalgic threads with slightly more contemporaneous assessments of the Ox. One of them suggests his greed cost us JWH!!

Let's all laugh at Orford

Just shows what we're not missing. Dreadful 5th tackle options, aimless forwards and backs running concentric circles, a kick-off dribbling 20 metres etc etc etc. He is too old, he should have given it away after 2009.

silvertails.net

News: Orford deal to cost Manly new star

MANLY is closing in on the signature of Matt Orford but his retention is likely to come at the cost of one of the NRL's most promising players, Jared Waerea-Hargreaves. Read the full article

silvertails.net

Thanks for that blast from the past. Turns out I’ve always been an Ox stan and didn’t even realise it.

 

[Volley]

Geeze the Ox hate in that second one, less than a year after leading them to a 40-0 GF win. That said, I remember him getting bagged during 2008, some were probably crucifying him for missing a few conversions in the GF.

 

[Ryan]

Yes might be one or two looking back through rose coloured glasses. Here's a couple of nostalgic threads with slightly more contemporaneous assessments of the Ox. One of them suggests his greed cost us JWH!!

Let's all laugh at Orford

Just shows what we're not missing. Dreadful 5th tackle options, aimless forwards and backs running concentric circles, a kick-off dribbling 20 metres etc etc etc. He is too old, he should have given it away after 2009.

silvertails.net

News: Orford deal to cost Manly new star

MANLY is closing in on the signature of Matt Orford but his retention is likely to come at the cost of one of the NRL's most promising players, Jared Waerea-Hargreaves. Read the full article

silvertails.net

Holy ****, I'm so sorry @The Wheel , what an absolute ****wit I was in that one. Talk about an embarrassment to society. All you were doing was agreeing with me..

 

[Ryan]

Seems I always backed our Ox. Love, love, loved him.

 

[KNUCKLES]

On the contrary, the fact that DCE has played so many rep games shows how those who decide who is best for those games are thinking. They dont base their decision on his performance in rep games, at least not alone. They base it on his performance in comp games. Those making the decisions see him as easily one of the best half backs in the game. Orford was solid and did his job well and probably was a little more consistent, but the judges of who are the best players in the game worthy of rep game selection make it quite clear who they thought was the better player.

DCE hasn't had anyone to compete with at QLD for the 7 jumper. Wasn't even a look in til Thurston, Cronk etc retired. DCE is the incumbent halfback for Australia but I'd put my bottom dollar cleary would have replaced him 2 years ago if it wasn't for covid. Orford played in an era full of gun halves. I don't see how u can use rep games as a measurement. Different time, different players. DCE wouldn't of played a rep game back then either I don't think

 

[Disco]

Hmmm, love a quote where I've said our team is fantastic? But I do think Turbo is a generational talent, just have to keep him fit.....anyhoo thats besides the point.

In terms of why I think its a simplistic measure, well its quite simple.

Orford have 4 seasons with us (if you exclude the Northern Eagles), DCE is in...what is it now, 12th?

So straight away its not an even measure.

But lets say we compare the four years closest together (Orford 2006-2009 and DCE 2011-2014)

Orfords Manly finished 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 4th on the ladder
DCE's Manly 3rd, 4th, 4th, 2nd on the ladder

But even this is meaningless as even as the chief playmaker their are 16 other people on a team

 

[KNUCKLES]

Kurt gidley captained NSW from the bench lol..
Just a thought

 

[Disco]

Seems I always backed our Ox. Love, love, loved him.

Indeed

Guys, you all know how positive I have been lately, but I just wanted to get this off my chest...

I have always been an avid Ox fan, and defend him to the rafters at all times, but the fella has been a bit disappointing of late.

I personally think he's a great consistent half back, but kind of think the rumor to his below par play in big games may have a ring of truth to it.

I wouldn't say that statement without having examples:-
a) He had an extremely disappointing game in the premilinary final (BK's last game). His kicking game just gifted te ball over to The Dragons that day, he dropped intercepts, and our team looked a bit lost.
b) The Grand Final last year. Ok, the whole team were under done, but Ox is the captain, and is supposed to rally / steer the troops around the park. Again his kicking game and leadership were a bit non existent.
c) This weekend. I personally thought he had an absolute shocker, which is really, really disappointing. Especially his kicking the ball and gifting the ball back to the Storm. In fact, he has a tendency of doing it every time we play The Storm. I don't know if he's intimidated, coached that way or what, but a little disappointing.
d) His come back from injury game against The Raiders in Canberra last year was really, REALLY bad.

The Smellograph suggested recently that he's the highest paid (via CLUB payments) player in the NRL. He isn't even in the mix for City / Country? He earns 3 times that of Cooper Cronk - and I find that a bit strange.

I know we needed a class 1/2 back, and we have come on in leaps and bounds since he has been here, but is there something that could be done to improve the little fella's play?

It's just little things like kicking the penalties only 10 metres, when Smith gained almost 40 metres from the same spot.

I dunno lads...he's one of my all time favorite players, and I guess I'm becoming a little disappointed in the guy... :-\

You know what lads....I reckon that Orford is 29, and he has his set routine of what he does well, and what he doesn't do so well. It just appears that he not really equipped to grow, or learn new facets to his game, whereas great 1/2 backs are always evolving.
The banana kicks were great in late 06, early 07, but he does them so often now, teams are onto it.

I reckon if he just evolved, changed his game a little.

If we are serious about a Premiership, we need a 1/2 back like this IMO. Sadly, I think we need to look at another option in 09. Maybe a swap with Wigan. They get Orford for 2-3 years, and we get Carney.

I'd have Tim Smith rather than Orford, if Smith wants $50k per season. It also means we could re-sign Lyon, Foran and maybe another blue chip player as well as even Sam Burgess or whatever his name is.

I'm really disappointed with Orford's performances this year. I'm actually starting to see some really big flaws in his game. To that end , we have Hodgkinson, Foran, Lyon, Cherry-Evans who have all performed extremely well.

It pains me to say this, but I think it's almost time for him to move on. Forget Monaghan. Use the young guys. That then makes room for Farrar in the backline as well.

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Ben Farrar
05. David Williams
06. Jamie Lyon
07. Keiran Foran
08. Josh Perry
09. Matt Ballin
10. Jason King
11. Anthony Watmough
12. Shane Rodney
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Chris Bailey
15. Brent Kite
16. George Rose
17. Joe Gulovou

You could almost dump Kite and Williams, and go on the full re-build with:-

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Jamie Lyon
05. Ben Farrar
06. Keiran Foran
07. Trent Hodgkinson
08. Josh Perry
09. Matt Ballin
10. Jason King
11. Anthony Watmough
12. Shane Rodney
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Chris Bailey
15. Matt Cross
16. George Rose
17. Joe Gulovou

Very cheap and cost effective side. Use all the surplus cash from Kite, Ox and Williams to sign Sam Burgess if need be.

Galuvou should be on League minimum - $50k. Then again - so should D Williams, K Foran (for now), Matt Cross, T Williams, C Bailey and heck - I'll throw in M Orford.

Just piss Matt Orford off, give Trent Hodgkinson a shot - salary cap review - no problem.

 

[The '47ers]

Mate, list every Sea Eagles finish on the table with Orford as our chief playmaker , then compare that with the finishes under DCE as out chief playmaker then let's talk about the results.

Orford had a way better pack leading the way forward, rather than some of these puffs DCE is playing behind lately

 

[Ryan]

Indeed

Jesus , how long did that take you , or did you have those saved to your PC or something?

Despite all that, I STILL love Ox. Always did. Sorry to deflate your balloon mate.

Are you wanting validation or something here ? Ummm , well done I guess bro?? Haha You got me ! You can sleep well now !

 

[Disco]

Jesus , how long did that take you , or did you have those saved to your PC or something?

Despite all that, I STILL love Ox. Always did. Sorry to deflate your balloon mate.

Are you wanting validation or something ? Ummm , well done??? Haha

Well my post was 3 minutes after yours so...roughly 3min.

Search function is brill, just searched posts from yourself with "Orford" in them.

To be fair scanning through you do should significant support to OX you can seem......inconsistent pending on a win or loss.

 

[Ryan]

Hmmm, love a quote where I've said our team is fantastic? But I do think Turbo is a generational talent, just have to keep him fit.....anyhoo thats besides the point.

In terms of why I think its a simplistic measure, well its quite simple.

Orford have 4 seasons with us (if you exclude the Northern Eagles), DCE is in...what is it now, 12th?

So straight away its not an even measure.

But lets say we compare the four years closest together (Orford 2006-2009 and DCE 2011-2014)

Orfords Manly finished 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 4th on the ladder
DCE's Manly 3rd, 4th, 4th, 2nd on the ladder

But even this is meaningless as even as the chief playmaker their are 16 other people on a team

I disagree, because your saying an average isn't an average. How about looking at the results over the entirety of their respective careers ? Not just at Manly?.Or how is that unfair because the numbers won't work in your favour ?

Also, are you suggesting a teams marquee chief okay maker doesn't have a significant affect on the success or failures of a team ?

 

[Disco]

I disagree, because your saying an average isn't an average. How about looking at the results over the entirety of their respective careers ? Not just at Manly?.Or how is that unfair because the numbers won't work in your favour ?

Also, are you suggesting a teams marquee chief okay maker doesn't have a significant affect on the success or failures of a team ?

Nothing is my favour, I'm still undecided...both excellent players.

Chief playmakers certainly influence a team but they aren't solely responsible for the results.

Likewise 4 years to 12 makes it an inadequate comparison.

If thats the measure you want run with go for it but I just think its too simplistic.

Like the rep games measure.....there is more to it than just that

 

[Ryan]

If I had to pick a team out.of.our say current team, and the 2008-2011 team, this would be it:

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Jamie Lyon
05. Reuben Garrick
06. Kieran Foran
07. Matt Orford
08. Brent Kite
09. Matt Ballin
10. Josh Aloiai
11. Haumole Olakau'atu
12. Anthony Watmough
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Jamie Buhrer
15. Jake Trbojevic
16. Josh Perry
17. Steve Menzies

 

[KNUCKLES]

If I had to pick a team out.of.our say current team, and the 2008-2011 team, this would be it:

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Robertson
03. Steve Matai
04. Jamie Lyon
05. Reuben Garrick
06. Kieran Foran
07. Matt Orford
08. Brent Kite
09. Matt Ballin
10. Josh Aloiai
11. Haumole Olakau'atu
12. Anthony Watmough
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Jamie Buhrer
15. Jake Trbojevic
16. Josh Perry
17. Steve Menzies

Turbo over Robertson surely

 

[Will on the hill]

How so? Both chief playmakers. Both in apparent great teams (you state our team is fantastic and that we have generational players yourself).

Anyways, the answer is:
Our average finish with Ox is 2.75 out of 16
Our average finish with DCE is 7.33 out of 16

By that metric Andrew Johns is a 6.71 and Jonathan Thurston is an 8.64. So clearly the Ox is an immortal in waiting.

 

[Mal Cochrane]

I'm only half way through this thread, and want to mention 2 things.

People mentioning DCE's defence as being a strength?? Strewth!

You can't compare rep games, different era, different reasons for players being picked. Someone mentioned frizell vs G Stewart rep games and demonstrates the point perfectly.
Orford I feel was unlucky and perhaps out of favour with selectors at the time, but it didn't stop him from winning the Dally M, and he didn't just have a fluke year that year and was ordinary the rest.

 

[Peter C]

Mate, list every Sea Eagles finish on the table with Orford as our chief playmaker , then compare that with the finishes under DCE as out chief playmaker then let's talk about the results.

We had a far superior team in those days, backs and forwards

 

[Chip and Chase]

There's two DCE's in my book. DCE pre Titans backflip 8 year massive contract and DCE post Titans backflip 8 year massive contract. Or more simply up to and including 2015 and then 2016 and beyond

All the accolades that get trotted out about DCE as justification of his supposed value as the highest paid player in the league are all achievements before 2015 i.e. 2011 Premiership and Dally M rookie of the year, 2013 Clive Churchill medal and 3rd in Dally M voting, 2014 Dally M Halfback of the year.

He was good back then, no doubt. Mainly because he was a very small cog in a very efficient and ruthless Manly machine that was arguably the best side this club has ever fielded over a 5 year period. A core of the Stewart brothers, Lyon, Matai, Foran, Ballin, Watmough, Kite, King etc. That side dominated and allowed DCE to play his natural running game. There was leadership, toughness, composure, belief and skill just oozing out of the joint. He played off the back of that and looked a world beater because he didn't have to make the running and call the shots.

Fast forward to 2016 when he became the man - "the marquee player" - and he hasn't produced anywhere near that sort of consistent performance. He's had 2 top 10 Dally M finishes in that time, with last years 4th place the best on the coat tails of Turbo dominating at PVL ball and dragging the whole joint along for the ride. The other was 6th in 2017

Dally M halfbacks of the year since 2016 - Cronk, Morgan, Brooks, Moses, Cleary, and Cleary.

Manly ladder positions since 2016 - 13th, 6th, 15th, 6th, 13th, 4th (thank you Tommy !) and this year ??

He's been disappointing on the whole since he signed that lifetime deal and we haven't got anywhere near enough consistency or bang for our buck in my book. Can kick a field goal and a 40/20 but you need more than that from your Captain and chief playmaker. I get that the million dollar contract isn't his fault, but I struggle with people trying to justify it by saying he is worth it....he simply isn't in my opinion.

Anyway we've got 3 more years to debate the subject, but I came to the conclusion a while back that we'll never win another premiership with him in the 7.

 

[Dion Johnson]

Ox was a far better defender than DCE, Ox is a better number 7 than DCE in my book also due to his game management.

DCE is a very good individual player that can change games with his X factor, Ox didn’t have that in him.

Both very good players, picking a number 7 I would say Ox and picking the better individual player with that attacking X factor would be DCE.