Cue the numbnuts .. 1st in .. Bryce Cartwright

[Woodsie]

So are Des Hasler and Trent Robinson Numnuts for publicly advocating a flu jab option for N R l players ? Again where is the indisputable medical evidence that having a flu shot will definitely prevent someone from contracting the covid virus . Fair point about certain institutions and facilities imposing some conditions where highly susceptible and vulnerable people are at increased risk , That is their prerogative but unless it does become a government requirement for the general public , again not sure why N R L players in a general form of self isolation should have to comply as well and if they are not in direct contact with prone groups of the community . Walker and A F B apparently have no covid symptoms at present so not too sure how they can or will be a covid threat by preferring to not get the flu shot if that is their choice and that should still be their right ..

1) Unless they have a relevant medical qualification ... what Des and Trent have to say is irrelevant .. they are football coaches ... ask them again if 5 of their players display flu like symptoms a day before a game ...

2) The football players ARE the prone group ... it is to protect the team from a flu outbreak that the need to have the flu shot has been mandated ... under the current stand down and quarantee conditions if anybody displays flu like symtoms the disruption to training and games could be very detrimental ... bringing flu into the group would be irresponsible ...

If one person sneezes on a bus or in the plane ... the biosecurity reaction and subsequent quaranteeing would be distasterous .....

All for the sake of getting a jab ... numbnuttery gone viral ..

3) Getting the flu shot has nothing to do with getting Covid ...

 

[manly al]

Such is the obsession with self entitlement that the safety of others appears secondary. Freedom of choice is a nonsense argument. Circumstances don't always deliver preferred choices. The society that we live in does not allow us absolute freedom of choice. We have to comply with laws whether we choose to or not. If we don't comply with the law there are ramifications. In this case if the players don't comply with the rule (namely getting the flu shot) then they shouldn't be permitted to train with others or play. There should be no exceptions.

If there was a vaccine now available for the covid 19 , it would be an entirely different matter . Some people exposed to the virus will still not contract it apparently but for the welfare of the general community , and with its present high contraction rate and most immunity systems not conditioned to counteract it yet , probably should be mandatory then . In my own case in my twenties and to late thirties , have [ or did ] traveled very extensively to overseas destinations in all parts of the world and as good as my own immune system may have been at the time , was required to and had no hesitation in taking the respective vaccines for certain countries . Last had flu about 25 years ago , very rarely got it before then and had a good lifestyle health and diet situation but made a conscious decision then to embark on an even more health conscious and immunity orientated and health inclined regime . Have not had a flu since then , two colds in 25 years and they were both preventable in hindsight . Point is that i would prefer at present and for quite some time now to adopt a { if it airn "t broke , don't fix it policy . That also includes getting a flu shot and i have mentioned previously that i have noticed plenty of people who get the flu shot and who still get flu like conditions after they receive it , Some who do not as well admittedly but again i feel much more comfortable to have confidence in my own immunity system . Maybe a flu shot would enhance it more , maybe it would weaken it . but again it should be my right and choice in the current circumstances and if i am of no threat to certain members of the community not to receive it .

 

[manly al]

1) Unless they have a relevant medical qualification ... what Des and Trent have to say is irrelevant .. they are football coaches ... ask them again if 5 of their players display flu like symptoms a day before a game ...

2) The football players ARE the prone group ... it is to protect the team from a flu outbreak that the need to have the flu shot has been mandated ... under the current stand down and quarantee conditions if anybody displays flu like symtoms the disruption to training and games could be very detrimental ... bringing flu into the group would be irresponsible ...

If one person sneezes on a bus or in the plane ... the biosecurity reaction and subsequent quaranteeing would be distasterous .....

All for the sake of getting a jab ... numbnuttery gone viral ..

3) Getting the flu shot has nothing to do with getting Covid ...

Don "t think that there is a lot of common ground on this one and fair enough . However Where is the definite medical opinion again where getting a flu shot is automatically going to proclude someone from still displaying flu like symptoms . Just curious also whether you think that Des and Trent Robinson are numnuts as well as footy coaches in supporting a players right to not get the flu jab

 

[yokahontas]

ironically Marty could have got an exemption going on the Qld Health statement, because he had a documented previous adverse reaction to the flu shot.

I believe that was Nathan Peats’ issue as well, both were pretty quick to make statements distancing themselves from the anti-vax nut job crowd

 

[yokahontas]

Agree ... but the key word you used is documented .... there are rare medical conditions and very rare cases of reactions ... the anecdotal evidence of my aunt Gretel once had a flu shot and it meade her sick won't hold much sway under scrutiny ...

Marty did say he spent a couple of days in hospital after his flu shot reaction though, so there would be some sort of record in his case. Not sure if Peats was the same.

 

[Woodsie]

Don "t think that there is a lot of common ground on this one and fair enough . However Where is the definite medical opinion again where getting a flu shot is automatically going to proclude someone from still displaying flu like symptoms . Just curious also whether you think that Des and Trent Robinson are numnuts as well as footy coaches in supporting a players right to not get the flu jab

I'll try again ... here is a scenario ...

AFB or Walker .. who both have children ... lovely things, but prone to bringing home just about every germ known to mankind ... because they are not vaccinated contract the flu on a thursday ...without any symptoms they do full contact training with the full squad and support staff on the friday ...

On the way into the dressing shed after travelling on the team bus at the game on saturday AFB or Walker are noticed sniffling with an elevated temperature and coughing by one of the game officials ... under the biosecurity protocols signed off by the NRL to the respective Gov'ts .... All players and staff would need to be immediately isolated, quarantined and stood down ...

Result ... Manly forfiet, and the NRL breach their broadcast agreement ....

As I already answered you ... ask Dessie and Trent again if they have players unavailable becuase of flu ... and yes .. if they are going against Medical advice ... they are numbnuts ..

 

[yokahontas]

Don "t think that there is a lot of common ground on this one and fair enough . However Where is the definite medical opinion again where getting a flu shot is automatically going to proclude someone from still displaying flu like symptoms . Just curious also whether you think that Des and Trent Robinson are numnuts as well as footy coaches in supporting a players right to not get the flu jab

The issue is two-fold - one: the flu knocks your immune system around badly. The indicators are that getting it may make you more susceptible to COVID-19 because of that, or liable to develop a more severe case. And if you happen to get both viruses at the same time, all bets are off.

The second issue is, you want to avoid having to isolate/quarantine any of your restricted squad of players, for obvious reasons. Doesn’t take many to display flu-like (or is it COVID-19 like?) symptoms before you don’t have enough healthy players to field a team. Getting flu jabs now, before the season starts, gets any of those minor reactions to the vaccination over and done with before that becomes a problem, and lessens the chance of a third or half of your squad having to be quarantined at any point because someone turned up to training with a cough and the sniffles. It could still happen - and might. But it’s the option they’ve got available right now to try and minimise that risk.

 

[manlyfan76]

Specifically the "flu shot made me sick" issue, how is it determined that is was the shot that made a person sick? How was it tested, was it then found to be 100% the shots fault? 50%? Or just timing.
Similar to how the autopsies have proven that covid killed all these peoole not their other morbidity / morbidities that they also had.

 

[yokahontas]

Specifically the "flu shot made me sick" issue, how is it determined that is was the shot that made a person sick? How was it tested, was it then found to be 100% the shots fault? 50%? Or just timing.
Similar to how the autopsies have proven that covid killed all these peoole not their other morbidity / morbidities that they also had.

The criteria for a death to be attributed to COVID-19, where other conditions are present, does include a clause about whether the other condition/s would likely have been ‘survivable’ without the virus being thrown into the mix. Doesn’t just apply to old people either - there was a 21 year old in Italy who had leukaemia that was only discovered after he died. In his age group, and with that type of cancer, remission and survival rates are very high - so COVID-19 was listed on his death certificate (likely with whatever the Italian version of ‘on a background of leukaemia’ is), because the virus was basically the catalyst that killed him.

Like my mum’s heart condition - there are people 20 and 30 years older than her who have lived with the same thing for decades. But if she got the Rona there’s a good chance it could exacerbate that condition and kill her - it’s 100% medically and scientifically correct for COVID-19 to be listed on the death certificate in those cases.

 

[yokahontas]

Specifically the "flu shot made me sick" issue, how is it determined that is was the shot that made a person sick? How was it tested, was it then found to be 100% the shots fault? 50%? Or just timing.
Similar to how the autopsies have proven that covid killed all these peoole not their other morbidity / morbidities that they also had.

The ‘flu shot made me sick’ thing makes perfect sense to anyone with an auto-immune disease. Immune responses - which the flu shot and other vaccines are designed to generate - do cause symptoms to some degree or another (fevers, for example, are actually not a bad thing below a certain level - that’s your immune system trying to kill germs via heat sterilisation. Obviously if your body goes too crazy with the flamethrower effect, the fever can cause more problems than it solves. Sometimes your immune system gets a bit full-on with its response, and you might feel/get sicker than someone else who had the same vax).

I get pretty standard ‘immune response’ symptoms from the various things my immune system can’t handle - the other interesting (and well documented, with my particular AI disease and several others) factor is that, after a reaction, my immune system goes on the fritz for a little while, and I’m more susceptible to whatever else might be going around. Same principle with the flu knocking your defences around a bit and making it easier for a coronavirus infection to occur.

 

[Woodsie]

The ‘flu shot made me sick’ thing makes perfect sense to anyone with an auto-immune disease. Immune responses - which the flu shot and other vaccines are designed to generate - do cause symptoms to some degree or another (fevers, for example, are actually not a bad thing below a certain level - that’s your immune system trying to kill germs via heat sterilisation. Obviously if your body goes too crazy with the flamethrower effect, the fever can cause more problems than it solves. Sometimes your immune system gets a bit full-on with its response, and you might feel/get sicker than someone else who had the same vax).

How common wouuld you say auto-immune disease was ??

 

[yokahontas]

How common wouuld you say auto-immune disease was ??

Hard to say, because there are so many of them, and having one also puts you more at risk of developing others, in some cases. In my case (coeliac disease), it’s about 1 in 70 in Australia, more in some parts of the world, less in others (because it’s genetic and is a lot more common in some racial groups, almost totally unheard of in others). But about 80% here are undiagnosed. The kicker is, it makes me more likely to develop other AI conditions, like diabetes, Hashimotos, lupus etc - and it works the same in reverse. Once the gene switches on and your immune system is inclined to carry on like a pork chop, it can start doing it in response to all sorts of stuff. My 4 year old niece had Kawasaki disease last year, quite likely she was more susceptible than other kids because she is coeliac.

Which is why the advice for COVID-19 for coeliacs, diabetics etc is basically we don’t know exactly what might happen, but it could be horribly bad, so take extra precautions not to get it!

 

[Woodsie]

Hard to say, because there are so many of them, and having one also puts you more at risk of developing others, in some cases. In my case (coeliac disease), it’s about 1 in 70 in Australia, more in some parts of the world, less in others (because it’s genetic and is a lot more common in some racial groups, almost totally unheard of in others). But about 80% here are undiagnosed. The kicker is, it makes me more likely to develop other AI conditions, like diabetes, Hashimotos, lupus etc - and it works the same in reverse. Once the gene switches on and your immune system is inclined to carry on like a pork chop, it can start doing it in response to all sorts of stuff.

Thanks Yoka ... best home schooling evar ...

 

[manlyfan76]

The criteria for a death to be attributed to COVID-19, where other conditions are present, does include a clause about whether the other condition/s would likely have been ‘survivable’ without the virus being thrown into the mix. Doesn’t just apply to old people either - there was a 21 year old in Italy who had leukaemia that was only discovered after he died. In his age group, and with that type of cancer, remission and survival rates are very high - so COVID-19 was listed on his death certificate (likely with whatever the Italian version of ‘on a background of leukaemia’ is), because the virus was basically the catalyst that killed him.

Like my mum’s heart condition - there are people 20 and 30 years older than her who have lived with the same thing for decades. But if she got the Rona there’s a good chance it could exacerbate that condition and kill her - it’s 100% medically and scientifically correct for COVID-19 to be listed on the death certificate in those cases.

Italy is an interesting study.
The death rate growth per pop. in 2019 was 0.89% and it has been similar year on year. Lombardy region has averaged 275 deaths per day 2015 through 2019. From the maths ive seen covid wont make much of a difference to the %.

Australia floats around 0.22 % growth peaking at 0.36 last year.

 

[Shoe1]

no one ever said that having the flu shot stops you getting covid19 ffs. That is so off point.

 

[Freddo]

I'll try again ... here is a scenario ...

AFB or Walker .. who both have children ... lovely things, but prone to bringing home just about every germ known to mankind ... because they are not vaccinated contract the flu on a thursday ...without any symptoms they do full contact training with the full squad and support staff on the friday ...

On the way into the dressing shed after travelling on the team bus at the game on saturday AFB or Walker are noticed sniffling with an elevated temperature and coughing by one of the game officials ... under the biosecurity protocols signed off by the NRL to the respective Gov'ts .... All players and staff would need to be immediately isolated, quarantined and stood down ...

Result ... Manly forfiet, and the NRL breach their broadcast agreement ....

As I already answered you ... ask Dessie and Trent again if they have players unavailable becuase of flu ... and yes .. if they are going against Medical advice ... they are numbnuts ..

Am I missing something here. If it were Jake or Tom or anyone who had been given a flu shot that started sneezing , coughing etc. wouldn't the same isolation rules etc. apply. I am all for vaccination but I don't believe a flu shot guarantees you won't get a dose of it. Even if was a much milder form of flu they would not know if it is Covid until they test for it.

 

[Will on the hill]

Am I missing something here. If it were Jake or Tom or anyone who had been given a flu shot that started sneezing , coughing etc. wouldn't the same isolation rules etc. apply. I am all for vaccination but I don't believe a flu shot guarantees you won't get a dose of it. Even it is a much milder form of flu they would not know if it is Covid until they test for it.

It's not a magic bullet but with 600 players and 350+ staff, it's a numbers game, aimed at reducing total cases, severity of cases and duration of cases, therefore less unnecessary testing will be required.

 

[Freddo]

It's not a magic bullet but with with 600 players and 350+ staff it's a numbers game, aimed at reducing total cases, severity of cases and duration of cases, therefore less unnecessary testing will be required.

I'll accept that but I am glad I that I am not getting on that bus.

 

[Mitch]

Looks like Brian has come around.

EXCLUSIVE: Titans centre Brian Kelly to have the flu shot, leaving Bryce Cartwright on his own at the Gold Coast. @travismeyn

 

[madmax]

Gone through this a 1000 times .... they are not disagreeing with my opinion ... they are disagreeing the the stated policy and opinion of every Medical Authority in every country on the planet ... bar none ... not one National Medical Authority even has doubts ..

And when .. like Cartwright ... your source of your medical advice is your influencer wife who showed you an article on the internet ... and your main supporters are a home and away actress and a TV Chef .... the name numbnut is actually giving them more respect than they deserve ....

I’m pro vaccination big time. My sister in law is antivax & I don’t have the time of day to listen to her. My point is that it’s his belief & not a reason for name calling! He’s one of ours & we don’t need to bag him for it. You can say to me ‘it’s my opinion’ & I respect your opinion on the subject but he’s not calling you a numbnut coz you believe differently!