Big Game Record

[Sheikheagle]

I like Toovey but some on here go absolute end spectrum when questioning how we are going means you hate Tooves!! Someone wrote we had only won so many games against the top teams and so they hate Tooves!! How do you go at work when there's disputes? Throwing clipboards up into the air and storming out in a huff


Ralphie, interesting facts that I hadn't seen but negative stuff won't go down well here. You are only supposed to quote positive facts like Hiku's metres the other night.

Tooves has done quite well considering we haven't got the best squad and King and Brett are out. Unfortunately his outburst would have showed Easts and Souths that he is really learning the ropes as a head coach and we looked lost when crunch time was on. (We also need to question Foran, DCE and Johns here as well)

Maguire seems like he will be the new supercoach of this era.

If supercoach = having your players take dives, having your star player perform squirrel grips and having an expendable player such as lima illegally take at one of the stars of the opposition (this is not a one off with maguire coached teams) then Maguire is a super coach.

I'm with SER8 give me Tooves or Robinson any day.

 

[Darren]

Very true Sheik but we aren't innocent as well. Richie speared GI twice in 1 game so obviously Tooves told the boys to take GI out of the equation. Many think Stevie takes too many dives, draws the penalty and amazingly keeps playing (good for us though) Glenn is known as the Grub so draw a line on that and Choc's reputation isn't of the highest order. You could identify these characters at every club.

Robinson and Bellamy would be the top 2 followed by Maguire and maybe Des/Tooves.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

We have a good big game record. We beat the Tigers didn't we?

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Very true Sheik but we aren't innocent as well. Richie speared GI twice in 1 game so obviously Tooves told the boys to take GI out of the equation. Many think Stevie takes too many dives, draws the penalty and amazingly keeps playing (good for us though) Glenn is known as the Grub so draw a line on that and Choc's reputation isn't of the highest order. You could identify these characters at every club.

One of the reasons I love this club is because of the "best & fairest" way the Manly team goes about playing the game.

I look at how we play and measure it against other teams and without doubt or bias, see the vast differences to other grub teams.

Darren, youve made 3 suggestions in your post, that I would like to reply to:

1) Tooves ordered GI taken out by Faaoso:
LOL........this is a gee up for sure. Please let everyone here know your kidding Dazza.

2) Many think Matai takes dives:
Other teams supporters biased perceptions are not worthy of entering as evidence into a Silvertails debate.

3) Gift is known as a grub:
Other teams supporters biased perceptions are not worthy of entering as evidence into a Silvertails debate.

 

[bones]

Very true Sheik but we aren't innocent as well. Richie speared GI twice in 1 game so obviously Tooves told the boys to take GI out of the equation. Many think Stevie takes too many dives, draws the penalty and amazingly keeps playing (good for us though) Glenn is known as the Grub so draw a line on that and Choc's reputation isn't of the highest order. You could identify these characters at every club.

Other teams supporters biased perceptions are not worthy of entering as evidence into a Silvertails debate.

That rules out Darren's opinion then.

 

[Ryan]

Now, I'm talking about Toovey as a coach here. I'm talking about his ability to get our side up in big games (stats above).

There is no excuses this weekend. We lose, there are huge issues about our ability to win the games that matter. Season proper is one thing, and I won't complain about that, but geez, we need to get up once and a while in the big ones.

You can't pick and choose stats to push your view but using that analogy what's the excuses for 2009 and 2010?

The Toovey-haters have been asked that question so many times now, and each time they refuse to answer it because they have no comeback to it.

At the end of the day bones, Des Hasler has the runs on the board. He's won many finals as a coach, and he has multiple premierships in a short coaching career.

Toovey is still doing his apprentiship.

I have said it before many times this season, yet people tend to forget the positives I write, and go into a lather about the criticisms (like a five year old telling long term fans to support other clubs etc), but Toovey has many great qualities a no-nothing fan like me appreciates:-

+ Toovey gives young guys a go (Taufua, Trbojevic, Gutherson) as examples.
+ Toovey is great with fan connectivity, and public relations.
+ Toovey is passionate.
+ Toovey is a club legend.
+ Toovey seems to motivate his players and team very well.
+ Toovey is a driver of culture
+ Great season proper (for the most part) results
+ Open, transparent, honest etc

and so on, and so forth.

That being said, since his tenure at Manly, I am unhappy with our ability to win big games, like finals, World Club Challenges, and games against top four teams.

I don't see how that is "bagging" someone. Maybe I am over complicating what I am saying here. How me suggesting that we win more than one in five games against top four teams with our roster translates to Toovey hate is, well, silly.

It really amuses me the levels people will sink, when provided an alternate opinion. The regression into name calling, recommendations that someone support another club etc, well, it's primary school crap (and a little redneck) - and yes, I oft get drawn into the stupidity as well.

Now, I repeat, with our roster, our depth (of which, us as fans should have very high expectations - the players deserve that respect - they have earned it) should mean we win more than 50% of our games against top 4 teams, and more than half our finals in my opinion.

Therefore, yes, I believe our players, who can beat anyone, anywhere, anytime should be doing so given an appropriate game-plan, which in the big games these past two years, we don't seem to have.

So with all his endearing qualities we all love as a club legend, I think Toovey has a ways to go in big games. No hate. No malice. Respect to the guy for taking over such a stressed situation. I just think in this area, we could be better.

Now if that makes me dumb, and idiot, stupid, hateful, spiteful etc in yours and others minds (like a lot of you guys are very vocal about), then there is nothing I can do from here to change that opinion.

Seriously, aren't we mature enough to have an open mind to someone else's opinion these days? Some of the comments above, are almost 2003 like when most of us were passionate little kids. We are above that aren't we? I thought we may have been, but the garbage above.....well......just know that when you guys write it, it doesn't do you any justice.

 

[manlyfan76]

Now, I'm talking about Toovey as a coach here. I'm talking about his ability to get our side up in big games (stats above).

There is no excuses this weekend. We lose, there are huge issues about our ability to win the games that matter. Season proper is one thing, and I won't complain about that, but geez, we need to get up once and a while in the big ones.

You can't pick and choose stats to push your view but using that analogy what's the excuses for 2009 and 2010?

The Toovey-haters have been asked that question so many times now, and each time they refuse to answer it because they have no comeback to it.

At the end of the day bones, Des Hasler has the runs on the board. He's won many finals as a coach, and he has multiple premierships in a short coaching career.

Toovey is still doing his apprentiship.

I have said it before many times this season, yet people tend to forget the positives I write, and go into a lather about the criticisms (like a five year old telling long term fans to support other clubs etc), but Toovey has many great qualities a no-nothing fan like me appreciates:-

+ Toovey gives young guys a go (Taufua, Trbojevic, Gutherson) as examples.
+ Toovey is great with fan connectivity, and public relations.
+ Toovey is passionate.
+ Toovey is a club legend.
+ Toovey seems to motivate his players and team very well.
+ Toovey is a driver of culture
+ Great season proper (for the most part) results
+ Open, transparent, honest etc

and so on, and so forth.

That being said, since his tenure at Manly, I am unhappy with our ability to win big games, like finals, World Club Challenges, and games against top four teams.

I don't see how that is "bagging" someone. Maybe I am over complicating what I am saying here. How me suggesting that we win more than one in five games against top four teams with our roster translates to Toovey hate is, well, silly.

It really amuses me the levels people will sink, when provided an alternate opinion. The regression into name calling, recommendations that someone support another club etc, well, it's primary school crap (and a little redneck) - and yes, I oft get drawn into the stupidity as well.

Now, I repeat, with our roster, our depth (of which, us as fans should have very high expectations - the players deserve that respect - they have earned it) should mean we win more than 50% of our games against top 4 teams, and more than half our finals in my opinion.

Therefore, yes, I believe our players, who can beat anyone, anywhere, anytime should be doing so given an appropriate game-plan, which in the big games these past two years, we don't seem to have.

So with all his endearing qualities we all love as a club legend, I think Toovey has a ways to go in big games. No hate. No malice. Respect to the guy for taking over such a stressed situation. I just think in this area, we could be better.

Now if that makes me dumb, and idiot, stupid, hateful, spiteful etc in yours and others minds (like a lot of you guys are very vocal about), then there is nothing I can do from here to change that opinion.

Seriously, aren't we mature enough to have an open mind to someone else's opinion these days? Some of the comments above, are almost 2003 like when most of us were passionate little kids. We are above that aren't we? I thought we may have been, but the garbage above.....well......just know that when you guys write it, it doesn't do you any justice.

Ryan you raise some good points however you hold the WCC game up as a failure. Is it really fair to be judging 2v on that game? yes it is a loss but really should it not be left out of the argument on the logical basis of what was gone through to get to that point? I could argue that it is des haslers loss as he won the 2011 GF not 2V. Why do you persist with using this game as an example of 2V's poor record in big games?

 

[bones]

At the end of the day bones, Des Hasler has the runs on the board. He's won many finals as a coach, and he has multiple premierships in a short coaching career.

Toovey is still doing his apprentiship.

I have said it before many times this season, yet people tend to forget the positives I write, and go into a lather about the criticisms (like a five year old telling long term fans to support other clubs etc), but Toovey has many great qualities a no-nothing fan like me appreciates:-

+ Toovey gives young guys a go (Taufua, Trbojevic, Gutherson) as examples.
+ Toovey is great with fan connectivity, and public relations.
+ Toovey is passionate.
+ Toovey is a club legend.
+ Toovey seems to motivate his players and team very well.
+ Toovey is a driver of culture
+ Great season proper (for the most part) results
+ Open, transparent, honest etc

and so on, and so forth.

That being said, since his tenure at Manly, I am unhappy with our ability to win big games, like finals, World Club Challenges, and games against top four teams.

I don't see how that is "bagging" someone. Maybe I am over complicating what I am saying here. How me suggesting that we win more than one in five games against top four teams with our roster translates to Toovey hate is, well, silly.

It really amuses me the levels people will sink, when provided an alternate opinion. The regression into name calling, recommendations that someone support another club etc, well, it's primary school crap (and a little redneck) - and yes, I oft get drawn into the stupidity as well.

Now, I repeat, with our roster, our depth (of which, us as fans should have very high expectations - the players deserve that respect - they have earned it) should mean we win more than 50% of our games against top 4 teams, and more than half our finals in my opinion.

Therefore, yes, I believe our players, who can beat anyone, anywhere, anytime should be doing so given an appropriate game-plan, which in the big games these past two years, we don't seem to have.

You are spot on about Hasler, he has the runs on the board without doubt. IMO he is the best coach in the NRL. But he is gone and we cant change that. But in regards to Tooves, you hit the nail on the head when you say he is doing an apprenticeship. Top four for a first year coach is great. Top four (and still going) first two years is better. Even Hasler's team has already been knocked out, and he had a GF team from last year to work with. Does that make him a failure as a coach? Of course not. Do you not think we are a lot stronger this year than last? I do. Our defence is much better than it was in 2012. Last year was a huge learning curve for Tooves.
Now, In regards to the games against other top 4 teams this year:
Against the roosters (Minor Premiers)- why do you not take into account the fact Brett was missing for two of those games, and foran the other. Even Hasler's record with Brett missing wasn't all that flash. We were not disgraced in any of those games, particularly the biggest occasion of the 3 being last Saturday.
Against Melbourne: 10 all draw In Melbourne (again without snake) and a 20 point win against a full strength storm at Brookie.
Against Souths: both games manly had a fair try disallowed, and in the Gosford game it most probably robbed us of a win. At Brookie we were not disgraced.
In both 2008 and 2011, in my opinion there was only one other team standing in our way of a premiership. The storm. Our record against them up until the 2008 GF was ordinary. Lets also remember in that GF the storm were without Smith and their record without him is similar to ours without snake. Hoffman was also out.
In 2013 we have THREE other teams standing in our way. The Storm again, Souths and the roosters. So maybe its not that manly have gone backwards, maybe we just have more quality opposition trying to bring us down.
As someone else has said , look at how Steve price has destroyed a premiership winning team in 2 years after a great coach in Bennett moved on. I just believe manly are in great hands ATM with Tooves in charge. I was worried when Dessie left. I'm not now.

 

[Biscuits]

Do you know what hasler had at his disposal that toovey doesn't? Hasler had an on-field general running the water and helping steer the players around the park. Maybe that was a big factor in haslers success at manly.

 

[Garts]

Ryan definitely makes some valid points. I think you have many posters up in arms is not due to the fact you are questioning Tooves ability in the big games, it is because you started this crusade in about round 4 last year and posted that you disliked Tooves personally. This is the reason why everyone jumps on you quite a bit now. I have no issue with raising the big games as a issue as it is valid. However, imo cannot be looked at in isolation.

 

[mickqld]

Beat the Sharks, Souffs and probably Roosters in the next 3 weeks and this argument ceases.

 

[MK Eagle]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.
After his departure it was close to the darkest time in Seaeagles history that left a massive black cloud over the club only 2nd to the merge of Northern Eagles.
Tooves tackled this situation with the same zest he used to drive Chief Harrigan 10 metres back in the mid 90's. The passion Tooves has for this club is unrivalled & amongst the players I doubt they could be displaying any more pride in the Seaeagles jersey, speaking massive praise to his coaching ability & the respect he gets from thoses most important - the players.
Considering many experts had us out of the 8 since 2012 his performance so far is top shelf imo.
Still has a few more opportunities in 2013 to impress the critics & I think he just might....

 

[bones]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Beat the Sharks, Souffs and probably Roosters in the next 3 weeks and this argument ceases.

Im looking forward to this argument ceasing if we dont beat the Sharks, Souffs & Roosters.

 

[Masked Eagle]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

Are people potentially downplaying the role Tooves had in our rebuild as well? I know Des was the coach, but Tooves has always had a say in things. I remember Foran saying as much when Des left that Tooves already had been doing a lot work and he would pick things up really quickly.

 

[bones]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

Are people potentially downplaying the role Tooves had in our rebuild as well? I know Des was the coach, but Tooves has always had a say in things. I remember Foran saying as much when Des left that Tooves already had been doing a lot work and he would pick things up really quickly.

Lol not at all. I just thought MK made an unfair comparison.
But you make a great point in regards to Foz. He ain't silly. He made his decision on what was best for his career and he chose Manly with Tooves as coach over Hasler. He could have earned more by leaving.

 

[mickqld]

Beat the Sharks, Souffs and probably Roosters in the next 3 weeks and this argument ceases.

Im looking forward to this argument ceasing if we dont beat the Sharks, Souffs & Roosters.

I'll need therapy if we don't beat the Sharks.

 

[Masked Eagle]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

Are people potentially downplaying the role Tooves had in our rebuild as well? I know Des was the coach, but Tooves has always had a say in things. I remember Foran saying as much when Des left that Tooves already had been doing a lot work and he would pick things up really quickly.

Lol not at all. I just thought MK made an unfair comparison.

Probably not just your post but in general, Tooves doesn't seem to have gotten much credit at all for helping rebuild the club. I think people forget he was always going to be the coach, Des himself said in the early days he wasn't going to be a career coach. If the plan has always been for Tooves to take over one day, then I'm sure he has always had a say in things. Maybe Des's record wouldn't have been as good without Tooves in the background?

 

[Ralphie]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

Are people potentially downplaying the role Tooves had in our rebuild as well? I know Des was the coach, but Tooves has always had a say in things. I remember Foran saying as much when Des left that Tooves already had been doing a lot work and he would pick things up really quickly.

All the more reason why the success of the past should have continued with this roster.

 

[bones]

Missing some key factors here
Took over a club full of turmoil, conflict...basically a rabble.

Theres no doubt Hasler got some results but as I recall it, this took time to build. In fact I dont think he had near the success of Tooves in his 1st 2 seasons.

Unfair comparison. Hasler took over a basket case. Tooves took over the reigning premiers. HUGE difference to the roster Hasler inherited to the one Tooves did.

Are people potentially downplaying the role Tooves had in our rebuild as well? I know Des was the coach, but Tooves has always had a say in things. I remember Foran saying as much when Des left that Tooves already had been doing a lot work and he would pick things up really quickly.

All the more reason why the success of the past should have continued with this roster.

It has. Not sure what team you've been watching.