Jono said:
My advice is concentrate on the ones that point out the flaws in your argument fairly and put up a good argument.
Let me show you how its done:
- The Bulldogs have re-signed players over the past year but before then they:
1) Lost Sonny Bill Williams, Willy Mason, Braith Anasta, Johnathan Thurston and Roy Asotasi, Steve Price just to mention a few off the top of my head.
2) In 2008 they bought 8 new superstars to fill their ranks for 2009.
3) Their retention was SO good that they needed to buy another 8 superstars in 2010 for the 2011 season.
4) 2002 they retained players by rorting the cap.
Now, lets look at Manly:
1) Players still at the club who signed pre - 2007: Brett Stewart, Glenn Stewart, Steve Matai, Anthony Watmough, Jason King, Brent Kite, George Rose, Jamie Lyon, Matt Ballin
2) Superstars we've lost (that haven't retired) since 2007: Michael Monahan (to the UK), Michael Robertson (to the UK), Steve Menzies (to the UK), Shane Rodney (to the UK), Steve Bell (to the UK), Matt Orford (went to the UK, now retired), Trent Hodkinson (Bulldogs), Will Hopoate (Morman/Eels), JWH (Roosters), Glenn Hall (went to UK, now at Cowboys), Heath Le'Strange (to the UK)
3) Young guys we brought in and made superstars since 2007: Tony Williams, David Williams, Daly Cherry-Evans, Kieran Foran, Will Hopoate (gone), Trent Hodkinson (gone), Jamie Buhrer, Darcy Lussick, JWH (gone)
And all that is off the top of my head, I'm sure I've forgotten someone.
My point is, you knock our ability to retain players. However, when you have a superstar team that turns your juniors into superstars as well, you are likely to either be right near the cap or you will start to lose some of these players. If you don't drop them then you turn into cheats like the Bulldogs in 2002, or the Storm from 2006 - 2010.
No Bulldog fan ever has a right to argue about staying under the salary cap because they have rorted it before. No Bulldogs fan can ever lecture us about re-signing players when they can't do this themselves and have to buy new people every 3 years. No Bulldogs fan has a right to talk about Manly and the way we operate because we have 2 premierships in 4 years and have still been able to retain most of those stars, while the Bulldogs leak players and junior like no tomorrow and haven't won a premiership since 2004.
Bulldogs fans have no right coming onto a Manly forum telling us how bad our operations are when they have bought Manly staff to improve their own operations.
Finally, no Bulldogs fan has a right to tell us how to retain our juniors when the only two juniors your club has bred in the past couple of years to make something of themselves are Ben Barba and Daniel Harrison. Guess what? We have Daniel Harrison right here at Brookvale, so thanks for that. Oh, and he's one of our Juniors anyways so you I guess you bought him as well.
The last 2 points I make are simple:
1) I have mentioned this before but you ignored it: you said we have a million dollars in the bank after winning the GF, we should put that to our wages. How do we do this when we have hit the $4.3 Million cap, without doing a Doggies and rorting the cap?
2) You mentioned above that we leave negotiating to the last minute. How is negotiating a contract 20 months before it ends "waiting until the last minute"?
The reason people hate the Dogs fans on this forum is because you all walk around since you got Des like your s**t don't stink. We couldn't give a rats arse that you got Des, you can have him. It just means that you all want to be like us, its actually a compliment: Canterbury - Bankstown: the new Silvertails!!! Nice ring to it.
You MrInvisible are, by coming on here, causing the most trouble. You may not mean it but you are exactly like Marie from "Everybody Loves Raymond". You make your compliments sound like they are genuine, but then you slap us in the face at the same time. It's called a backhanded compliment. We are not idiots. Therefore, you are a troll.
If you want to have a discussion, get rid of the backhanded compliments, and put up a logical argument. So far all I've heard is BS, which is not a good way to have an intellectual conversation. If you can't do this, then see you later and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Well seem as you have gone to the effort to construct a decent response other than become abusive, then I guess a response (regardless of if you like what I have to say in it or not) is warranted.
Firstly I am not knocking you at all in regards to retaining players, I am simply stating that by dragging contract discussions on until a player approachs asking for more money, and then still ignoring it until the threat of a release is made, it's poor form and not the way to treat players. I have links with previous players (and a current player) for Manly and have been advised it is the norm, and been how business has been done at the club for a long time.
You are correct, the Bulldogs have lost many a big name player before, and it gutted me somewhat as a Bulldogs supporter. Difference is those players did the dirty on the club and fans, and not due to salary cap, but their own want for exhorbinant salaries that the club was never going to be able to suppply. That said I can see a LOT of similarity between losing some of those big names, and Manly struggling to keep their side together. As players get better they demand a higher salary. This however laughs in the face of the recent discovery of severely underpaying players like DCE. We've heard this one before with someone else, that's right Hasler. Now whilst touching on that name which is almost a swear word here, I brought news well before the announcement that Hasler was on the move to the Dogs. It wasn't a well kept secret to be honest. That said, his gripes were quite similar to those voiced by DCE (wanting more money for success, and being left to dangle for too long without contract talks).
Lets not dwell in the past re the Bulldogs Administration because it was downright shocking to be polite. These days the likes of Greenburg and Peponis are making decisions purely business based. Rugby League is as much a business as a sport, and that is why decisions such as that to accquire the services of Hasler were made. Hasler unhappy, Bulldogs make a business decision and offer him new state of the art facilties, in a family orientated club, with a decent amount of juniors to train up.
Herein lies the problem on the flipside. This was raised also by the continuous call team of 2UE tonight but I'll repeat as it's important and somewhat touches on my initial comments.
So Manly retain DCE, and they maintain Foran. That's fine, but all those other players busting their arse on (what they consider) bottom dollar contracts are well within their rights to ask why they can't get more money. In the case of players already on big dollars, it makes the problem worse. So you sign a few big names, but in doing so have to release a couple. Again that's just the way of Rugby League, BUT Manly don't have the juniors (as proven by performances in Toyota Cup and NSW Cup over past seasons), to be able to bring up much talent to cover their losses. The BIG gamble is that Manly are planning their side expecting a raise in the salary cap. If that doesn't eventuate or falls short of the expected total, then as a club they will be in all sorts of bother. As the Continuous Call team tonight stated "it's a gross missmanagement of funds, done so in a dangerous manner".
Finally, as you aren't an admin you don't really have a say on who participates on this site. The idea of forums are based on discussion forums, the keyword being DISCUSSION, in which opinions are warranted and varied.
Again though thanks for the reply. Mines above.
