Trump

This post is a gateway to a topic that undeniably cannot be overviewed in one go. It also cannot be understood from just one person's opinion or perspective, but it does happen to be one I studied for two years. Regrettably, prior to this I used to be one of those people that would joke "just drop a bomb on the whole place, who cares", or echo talking points such as "Muslims are born terrorists", "Muslims don't want peace" etc. I probably blame social media for that. Now i'm of the belief this is much less nature than it is nuture. The Middle East is a powder keg. A very complicated yet predictable total, utter mess.

I learned most specifically about the Israel-Palestine conflict; although it could just as easily be branded the Israel-Arab conflict due to how wide-ranging and destabilising it has been. Britain practically dropped Israel into the Middle East after WW2 with little more than a "goodbye and good luck". Once the dust had settled, the Zionist community kicked into gear and encouraged mass-migration of Jewish from around the world. Military settlement by military settlement, town by town and home by home they displaced Palestinians. Britain didn't want any part in this problem. Palestinian resistance groups constantly got shuffled in and out of their borders and wars spread to any neighbouring Arab countries that took them in. To make matters worse, Israel continued their colonialist aims by capturing land throughout Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebannon - ensuring continuation across the broader middle east. Following a succession of wars, the US and Russia began viewing the Middle East as little more than a proxy to test out their cold-war era military toys. Certain Arab communities were witnessing that they were powerless to an Israel State propped up both financially and militarily by the US. Indirectly, the US and Israel were pushing Middle Eastern attitudes into a corner. Societal shifts began to turn against 'freedoms' of the Western world and Democratic ideals served no place in a region under constant threat of war and occupation. Groups popped up that offered more authoritarian attitudes, many radical. As is the case in all history, this leads to the decline of civilisation. Iraq and Iran later decline.

Back to Palestine; by the 80's multiple generations of Palestinians have been born into the crisis. Each generation more oppressed and brutalised than the last. By this point, sticks and stones were the main form of common resistance to Israeli oppression. Israel answered it with their "break their legs" policy... Palestinian leadership groups tried violence, they tried non-violence, yet in the end they effected no change. In decades of conflict, the main Western intervention had been to prop up Israel, resist the perceived threat of Communism (proxy vs russia) and destabilise the Arab world. By the 90's a rise in Jewish and Muslim religious extremism prompted renewed urgency towards a peaceful resolution (because war and violence has been shown to only further justify violence and upheaval by radical / militant groups).

Come to lates 90's and early 2000's and the Palestinian Authority had been granted control over regions of the West Bank and Gaza. Things were looking up, but as a consequence of the prolonged conflict multiple groups had developed, each proposing their own answer. Just as Palestine and Israel were closing in on a two-state solution Netanyahu came into the picture. From the start Netanyahu openly funneled millions of dollars to Hamas (unlike the PLO/Palestinian Authority, Hamas' solution didn't involve compromising for a two-state solution). And with that, Netanyahu guaranteed peace would not happen under his watch. Here we are today, where Israel now uses the hate they bred as the reason to inflict more violence.

Further violence and support is not and never will be the answer to the Middle East. If only the West listened to Yasser Arafat (PLO leader) during the 1974 UN general assembly

"Our world aspires to peace, justice, equality and freedom. It wishes that oppressed nations, bent under the weight of imperialism, might gain their freedom and their right to self-determination... But all such aspirations cannot be realized in a world that is at present ruled over by tension, injustice, oppression, racial discrimination and exploitation."​
"Great numbers of peoples, including those of Zimbabwe, Namibia, South Africa and Palestine, among many others, are still victims of oppression and violence. Their areas of the world are gripped by armed struggles provoked by imperialism and racial discrimination, both merely forms of aggression and terror. Those are instances of oppressed peoples compelled by intolerable circumstances into confrontation with such oppression. But wherever that confrontation occurs it is legitimate and just."​
"It is imperative that the international community should support these peoples in their struggles, in the furtherance of their rightful causes and the attainment of their right to self-determination."​
"Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom-fighter's gun. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat: do not let the olive branch fall from my hand."

Back to the Trump thread, well he has continued the US tradition of enabling Israel, fueling the fire and learning nothing. He can't even grasp the problems of middle-low class US peoples, so there is zero chance Trump can even begin to comprehend the history of that region. Nor did he consult anyone that did prior to coming to Israel's aid. Trump's base is again engaging in doublethink by associating this sequence of events with an end result of eternal peace. It is pathetically clear that he only wants praise. He didn't want to wait longer than 12 days to declare a ceasefire - when it inevitably drags on longer it will be too much of a bother for him to deal with (as was the case with Ukraine). It would be sobering for supporters (in and out of white house) to either a) study the history or b) live in one of these countries. I don't blame all Israeli people but Netanyahu's power relies on eternal war and torment in the Middle East. Trump doesn't understand that Iran is a symptom of the conflict and if US understood or cared for the history, they would understand that peace begins with turning against Netanyahu.
Thanks for taking the time to write those thoughts down. I have always been reluctant to enter into the debate about the rights and wrongs of all the players in the Middle East. All sides have very strong views and I find debate is ultimately futile. Positions are too well entrenched.

I would only say that Iran is uniquely vexing given the leadership of that country. Given past statements from that leadership, I would suggest most people would prefer they did not possess nuclear weapons.
 
Didn't Obama do the same thing, without approval from Congress, i can't recall what conflict it was. Could of been Benghazi.
Benghazi was when Islamic militants attacked a US compound in Libya. Then Secretary of State Hilary Clinton was heavily criticised for her “response”.

As for Obama, he bombed 7 countries in 6 years, killing thousands. He bombed more nations than George W Bush, including over 26,000 bombs in 2016 alone, without congressional approval. This was all after being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize soon after taking office. He also handed Iran over $50 billion as part of the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal.
 
Benghazi was when Islamic militants attacked a US compound in Libya. Then Secretary of State Hilary Clinton was heavily criticised for her “response”.

As for Obama, he bombed 7 countries in 6 years, killing thousands. He bombed more nations than George W Bush, including over 26,000 bombs in 2016 alone, without congressional approval. This was all after being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize soon after taking office. He also handed Iran over $50 billion as part of the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal.
Thanks Brookie, i didn't realise Obama bombed so many countries. And a big part of that 50b went to Irans proxies, Hezbollah and Assad in Syria before he got ousted.
 
What, because he swore? He has just destroyed Iran’s nuclear threat and simultaneously brokered a cease fire. Sure sounds like he is on top of things to me. Out of curiosity, would you say Biden was on top of things during say the last year or so of his presidency?
There is more to it than that. I have found his whole approach erratic and far from strategic. This started when he withdrew from the previous agreement in 2018 without a solid plan.

Honestly do you think Iran would have any faith in anything he says re deal?

I am happy to be proven wrong but, like almost all middle east deals, I would be shocked if it is still in place unless there is a leadership change on either side.

As for Biden like I have said before there are legitimate questions that need to be asked about his mental state but I am not as sure it impacted his last year - the idea that he was going to run for another 4 years is / was a massive concern.
 
Didn't Obama do the same thing, without approval from Congress, i can't recall what conflict it was. Could of been Benghazi.

When I was saying "the same thing" i was talking specifically about the swearing.

As for the over reach of presidential powers you could argue what Obama did in Libya, Syria or some of his drone strikes were on the edge (which is why I have not said anything about Trump and congressional approval as you could argue both parties are guilty of it)

The big concern from me is the lack of evidence to justify the attack.

I mean this is just one example of Bibi stating for 33 years they are close to a weapon


What changed? I would be interested to know why the time was now to attack.
 
Thanks Brookie, i didn't realise Obama bombed so many countries. And a big part of that 50b went to Irans proxies, Hezbollah and Assad in Syria before he got ousted.
You do realise that no money was given to them. Assets were unfrozen but it is not like they wrote a chq

 
There is more to it than that. I have found his whole approach erratic and far from strategic. This started when he withdrew from the previous agreement in 2018 without a solid plan.

Honestly do you think Iran would have any faith in anything he says re deal?

I am happy to be proven wrong but, like almost all middle east deals, I would be shocked if it is still in place unless there is a leadership change on either side.

As for Biden like I have said before there are legitimate questions that need to be asked about his mental state but I am not as sure it impacted his last year - the idea that he was going to run for another 4 years is / was a massive concern.
I’d say there is little scope for a strategic answer to the Middle East, given all the players are too erratic, and the problems are essentially unsolvable. The best that can be hoped for is to keep a lid on the pressure cooker and avoid limited wars become nuclear. So again, not sure what more Trump can or should have done.

On Biden, it is interesting the democratic pile on to the last press secretary when she committed the mortal sin of actually speaking her mind and not towing the party line, by suggesting biden was indeed incapacitated. And the questions run not just to his mental state but to who was actually running the show and who was signing executive orders. This coming from the side that supposedly champions “democracy”.
 
I’d say there is little scope for a strategic answer to the Middle East, given all the players are too erratic, and the problems are essentially unsolvable. The best that can be hoped for is to keep a lid on the pressure cooker and avoid limited wars become nuclear. So again, not sure what more Trump can or should have done.

On Biden, it is interesting the democratic pile on to the last press secretary when she committed the mortal sin of actually speaking her mind and not towing the party line, by suggesting biden was indeed incapacitated. And the questions run not just to his mental state but to who was actually running the show and who was signing executive orders. This coming from the side that supposedly champions “democracy”.
My question re the middle east is why now? I would be interested in knowing the reasoning like most previous governments (even Bush) have done.

I am not down with the whole auto pen / who was running the show conspiracy. The question for me is why people thought he would still be in a good way in 4 years - much like I feel about trump, which is natural for people of their age
 
My question re the middle east is why now? I would be interested in knowing the reasoning like most previous governments (even Bush) have done.

I am not down with the whole auto pen / who was running the show conspiracy. The question for me is why people thought he would still be in a good way in 4 years - much like I feel about trump, which is natural for people of their age
Presumably you were asking “why now” when Obama dropped each of his >26,000 bombs across 7 countries?
 
You do realise that no money was given to them. Assets were unfrozen but it is not like they wrote a chq

Not sure it makes much difference if funds came from “unfrozen assets” or a cheque. And given the waste under USAID, it’s a drop in the bucket from a US perspective. The issue is what it allows Iran to do.
 
You do realise that no money was given to them. Assets were unfrozen but it is not like they wrote a chq

Iran was given 50b+ by Obama or by the Democrats. Once Iran got the money they can do what ever they want with it. It's hard to put conditions on something that's not yours anymore. I would imagine outfitting an outside Army to do your bidding would be a huge cost.
 
I’d say there is little scope for a strategic answer to the Middle East, given all the players are too erratic, and the problems are essentially unsolvable. The best that can be hoped for is to keep a lid on the pressure cooker and avoid limited wars become nuclear. So again, not sure what more Trump can or should have done.

On Biden, it is interesting the democratic pile on to the last press secretary when she committed the mortal sin of actually speaking her mind and not towing the party line, by suggesting biden was indeed incapacitated. And the questions run not just to his mental state but to who was actually running the show and who was signing executive orders. This coming from the side that supposedly champions “democracy”.
who was running the US in the Biden years ? Who was signing off on the orders ? well on both accounts it was the trusty ole " auto pen "
 
It must be difficult having to find a negative slant on a peace deal that potentially saves hundreds or even thousands of lives. I admire your commitment though.
You seriously think Trump made a 'peace deal'??? He bombed Iran to help Israel win the war.
(Despite his own spies telling him Iran was not close to having nuclear weapon capability, as Netanyahu alleges. He bombed Iran to win the war. That is not brokering a peace deal.

As for your faith that Trump anguishes over civilian casualties? If only someone would tell him what is happening in Gaza. And in the west bank for that matter. And in Ukraine for that matter.
 
Trump doesn't understand that Iran is a symptom of the conflict and if US understood or cared for the history, they would understand that peace begins with turning against Netanyahu.
Thanks for another very detailed post.
The extent of Trump's understanding and care for the history in the Middle East, or more accurately, lack thereof, is clear from his plans for the Gaza Riviera.
And how Netanyahu manufactures wars to stay in power is quite remarkable. The fact the US political establishment (not only Trump) always backs him is telling. Before the October massacre I think he was on the point of being ousted and/or jailed, there was strong opposition to him within Israel.
 
You seriously think Trump made a 'peace deal'??? He bombed Iran to help Israel win the war.
(Despite his own spies telling him Iran was not close to having nuclear weapon capability, as Netanyahu alleges. He bombed Iran to win the war. That is not brokering a peace deal.

As for your faith that Trump anguishes over civilian casualties? If only someone would tell him what is happening in Gaza. And in the west bank for that matter. And in Ukraine for that matter.
Cease fire/peace deal. If he bombed Iran to help Israel win the war, why didn’t he bomb military installations rather than nuclear facilities hidden in mountains? I wasn’t aware you were privy to conversations between Trump and his spies, so I’ll have to concede on that point.

Trump has stated many times he is against conflict/war and his record backs that up. He sees himself as a deal maker, not a warmonger. What do you suggest he does in Gaza and the West Bank exactly? As you are clearly against him using force, do you suggest he just tells everyone to play nice? As for Ukraine, perhaps he should send US troops in against the Russians? What could go wrong?
 
Thanks for another very detailed post.
The extent of Trump's understanding and care for the history in the Middle East, or more accurately, lack thereof, is clear from his plans for the Gaza Riviera.
And how Netanyahu manufactures wars to stay in power is quite remarkable. The fact the US political establishment (not only Trump) always backs him is telling. Before the October massacre I think he was on the point of being ousted and/or jailed, there was strong opposition to him within Israel.
You’re not suggesting October 7 was a false flag operation are you?
 
who was running the US in the Biden years ? Who was signing off on the orders ? well on both accounts it was the trusty ole " auto pen "
It sure wasn’t poor old Joe. Biggest political scandal since watergate, and makes that look like a side show. It’s a pity the so called independent media don’t seem to care about it too much. And that autopen sure was busy issuing all those preemptive pardons.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write those thoughts down. I have always been reluctant to enter into the debate about the rights and wrongs of all the players in the Middle East. All sides have very strong views and I find debate is ultimately futile. Positions are too well entrenched.

I would only say that Iran is uniquely vexing given the leadership of that country. Given past statements from that leadership, I would suggest most people would prefer they did not possess nuclear weapons.
You’re not wrong… us Australians can’t really do much. Our government can denounce it, sure, but they’ll probably just follow the US stance as usual. Even then, not much will change. For at least the past 20 years Netanyahu has held the keys. Indirectly, US has plenty of responsibility by enabling them. In other times during the conflict, Israel was more sympathetic and it was instead Jewish or Muslim religious extremists, divided groups or violent Arab/Palestinian resistance that delayed peace efforts

I don’t doubt for a minute that modern-Iran is a threat with Nuclear weapons. Although I’ve always wondered, can a dictatorship really sustain themselves without some perceived or real external threat? To Iran, a US-Israel partnership is a very real threat. Particularly given how ruthless Israel has been in Gaza. As it stands they’ve got the US (with nuclear weapons) and Israel (who refuse to confirm or deny) trying to tell them they can’t even consider having nuclear weapons… that’s not really lending itself to build any sort of trust, which I’d argue is step 1

US currently preaches isolationism, so one choice would’ve been to continue quietly supporting Israel while otherwise staying out of the situation in Gaza/Iran. Another was to public ally denounce it, drop support and otherwise stay out of it. In terms of getting involved, one option was to declare that no further support would be provided. US to apply pressure until Netanyahu ceases and owns up to what they’ve done in Gaza. Support not to return until Israel commits to adhere to a new vision for peace. Final option was to ignore the Gaza situation, continue funding and assist in attacking Iran… Trump and a select few of his team jumped at the latter option. Overall I think it is shortsighted and a shame
 
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Thanks for another very detailed post.
The extent of Trump's understanding and care for the history in the Middle East, or more accurately, lack thereof, is clear from his plans for the Gaza Riviera.
And how Netanyahu manufactures wars to stay in power is quite remarkable. The fact the US political establishment (not only Trump) always backs him is telling. Before the October massacre I think he was on the point of being ousted and/or jailed, there was strong opposition to him within Israel.
Absolutely, he is evasive and no doubt has the help of hardline figures across the country. I can imagine that there is a fair bit of internal resistance but we hear very little

Funding Hamas (in their early days) really shows the extent he is willing to sow division
 

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