Tooves and Hookers

[Kiwi Eagle]

His thoughts probably do translate across to club level, but remember that the context of the comments was about State of Origin and not having a back up for Farah on the bench. The point that came with his comment about the 1 hooker system, was that in those types of close game you wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity because your main man is on the bench, which in regards to Farah is a fairly solid point

In Manlys situation I would have a backup on the bench though, because Ballin has never offered much in attack. I hate it when we are right on their try line and he wastes 2-3 tackles a set with short balls to a charging forward or going himself

 

[Loobs]

His thoughts probably do translate across to club level, but remember that the context of the comments was about State of Origin and not having a back up for Farah on the bench. The point that came with his comment about the 1 hooker system, was that in those types of close game you wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity because your main man is on the bench, which in regards to Farah is a fairly solid point

In Manlys situation I would have a backup on the bench though, because Ballin has never offered much in attack. I hate it when we are right on their try line and he wastes 2-3 tackles a set with short balls to a charging forward or going himself

No the way he said it was that it was his over-riding philosophy.

Kev Walters though sounds the complete opposite. Very progressive and in touch.

 

[Ryan]

I still think having Ballin starting the game, with his steady attack, great distribution, and league leading defense is great.

20 minutes before the end of half, Hodges comes on, takes advantage of a tiring defensive ruck, and changes up our game.

He continues to 20 minutes after half time, where Ballin comes on fresh, and stiffens up our defense again.

 

[Fluffy]

i would be aiming at 50-60 minutes for Ballin 20-30 for Hodges and adjust accordingly. i.e. is one is on fire or having a shoker. Ballin has had a few shockers this year with multiple balls missing the mark, going the wrong way and ball hogging close to the try line. Most of the issues look fatigue related.

 

[Killer03]

I must say I understood his reasoning with Farah, but it did seem to point to his own philosophy. Which is a tad disappointing. They do say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result, and I'm not sure that Tooves is trying things enough in the current environment.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not for 1 second saying Tooves is insane, I deadset love the guy, but I do think his conservatism is starting to cause serious issues.

 

[Loobs]

I must say I understood his reasoning with Farah, but it did seem to point to his own philosophy. Which is a tad disappointing. They do say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result, and I'm not sure that Tooves is trying things enough in the current environment.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not for 1 second saying Tooves is insane, I deadset love the guy, but I do think his conservatism is starting to cause serious issues.

Agree 100%

 

[Fluffy]

I must say I understood his reasoning with Farah, but it did seem to point to his own philosophy. Which is a tad disappointing. They do say the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result, and I'm not sure that Tooves is trying things enough in the current environment.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not for 1 second saying Tooves is insane, I deadset love the guy, but I do think his conservatism is starting to cause serious issues.

I think Tooves is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Thats is the same thing that saw 3 finals series in a row including finishing equal first and a grand final that was almost won.
Surely the definition of insanity is changing a winning formula?

 

[lismore_fan]

It would be great to have such a defensive side that you could fiddle with the attacking personnel and replace Matty Balin with a live-wire such as Hodges.
But when our defence is so poor, how can you replace the side's best tackler?
55 tackles in one game, 48 in another. Even on a bad game Matty B averages 35+.

He was taken out of the finals last year (with Jamie Buhrer) (the bonnet twins) and the opposition rode straight through us.

Replace your top tackler at your peril!

 

[mjb136]

I think Tooves is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Thats is the same thing that saw 3 finals series in a row including finishing equal first and a grand final that was almost won.
Surely the definition of insanity is changing a winning formula?

But we havent appeared to change our game plan, and are not winning.....

 

[Killer03]

I think Tooves is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Thats is the same thing that saw 3 finals series in a row including finishing equal first and a grand final that was almost won.
Surely the definition of insanity is changing a winning formula?

Get your thinking Fluffy, but circumstances have changed now. We've had a lot of things change since then, injuries, players leaving, players looking like they are leaving, players looking like they've aged in the current season. I'm not talking radical changes. But at the end of the day you can't argue with results or the ladder. We are last. So things aren't working as is, like I've said there are extenuating circumstances for this, but that's where the coach needs to shuffle the pack a bit and see if he can get a different result. Again I'm not talking stupid things like Willie Mason playing fullback (although that would be worth it to see), but more of a tweaking of what we are doing.

 

[Fluffy]

Get your thinking Fluffy, but circumstances have changed now. We've had a lot of things change since then, injuries, players leaving, players looking like they are leaving, players looking like they've aged in the current season. I'm not talking radical changes. But at the end of the day you can't argue with results or the ladder. We are last. So things aren't working as is, like I've said there are extenuating circumstances for this, but that's where the coach needs to shuffle the pack a bit and see if he can get a different result. Again I'm not talking stupid things like Willie Mason playing fullback (although that would be worth it to see), but more of a tweaking of what we are doing.

I get things have changed and I think all those changes are the majority of our problem.

Which is why I think the more consistency we can get in terms of players changes the better we will be. We have not had a chance to build any combinations in defense or attack and this is what is killing us. Hence i believe the musical chair strategy of change for the sake of change is only adding to what is the core problem.

Example - Symonds looked a lot better in his second game at 5/8 and we were on top until he also went off injured and we only just lost that. Had he remained on the park we probably would have won that one. Even the flogging on Friday looked a lot different before we lost Killer and had yet another forced change.

If you change 10 things each week and get half right and half wrong you do not improve.

 

[EagleFromMay1967]

i would be aiming at 50-60 minutes for Ballin 20-30 for Hodges and adjust accordingly. i.e. is one is on fire or having a shoker. Ballin has had a few shockers this year with multiple balls missing the mark, going the wrong way and ball hogging close to the try line. Most of the issues look fatigue related.

I agree with you. Spot on. And just about every strategist who's thought about Manly's problems will too.
Toovey is coaching, selecting, benching as if it were the 1990's. The game, for better or for worse, has moved on - And Toovey hasn't. This is the 'nub' of the problem.
This is why this year will be his last. I do admire his bravery, his fortitude, his love for Manly, but we want to WIN. We want a modern successful team, that it outwitting, outplaying , out-strategising the opposition.

Yes to a 'Bozo' interim, Yes to a Cleary, and a maybe to Barrett. We'll see. There would be ESL coaches too who would LOVE THE OPPORTUNITY to coach a highly successful NRL team like MMWSE - which has a good and imroving roster.

 

[Mal Cochrane]

just in regards to NRL 360 only, i find Tooves sometime hard to understand when on NRL 360. he doesn't speak freely, clearly or sometimes make much sense.

 

[maxta]

Massive fan Tooves but take the blinkers off - the side is screaming for more attacking options - too slow & predictable atm & it starts in the ruck area.....
ALso in the modern game, regardless of having a super half - the speed in the ruck creates the space to tear holes in the defence, as the defenders have to cramp the ruck area in prevention mode against the run giving far more attacking opportunities out wide.
Its not just Ballin lacking impact, also the fowards not bending the line, but Hodges definately adds a creating edge that would improve the attacking options - simple as that

 

[Killer03]

I get things have changed and I think all those changes are the majority of our problem.

Which is why I think the more consistency we can get in terms of players changes the better we will be. We have not had a chance to build any combinations in defense or attack and this is what is killing us. Hence i believe the musical chair strategy of change for the sake of change is only adding to what is the core problem.

Example - Symonds looked a lot better in his second game at 5/8 and we were on top until he also went off injured and we only just lost that. Had he remained on the park we probably would have won that one. Even the flogging on Friday looked a lot different before we lost Killer and had yet another forced change.

If you change 10 things each week and get half right and half wrong you do not improve.

Definitely don't want change for the sake of it. And doing something radical to show some flair is just taking pot luck. I'm more again looking at how we can make some changes that are warranted, whether that's Hodges or Tommy Turbo or whatever. But seeing where we are struggling, and I agree our play out of dummy half is quite stilted. Now that's not as simple as saying it's Ballins fault. Because he is making 50 tackles a game, must be exhausted and that also effects his play. So we need to strengthen our middle to ensure Ballin isn't JUST a tackle machine. Sure that's one of his biggest assets, and we need to use it, but we need to ensure he can add more.

 

[IQofalimabean]

Making 45-55 tackles a week Ballin is probably too tired to run the ball more often. The forwards don't generate as much of a roll on for a scoot out of dummy half compared to some teams as well. But hodges playing 30 mins a game would have more impact than Hasson for 20 meters.

 

[Loobs]

I think Tooves is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Thats is the same thing that saw 3 finals series in a row including finishing equal first and a grand final that was almost won.
Surely the definition of insanity is changing a winning formula?

That would only be true if your roster remained a constant and things like age, injury, attitude and player movements weren't a factor. But as there are so many variables in regards to the team you put out on the field, you're coaching philosophy needs to be able to shift with the variables.

I think that's where the problem is.

You can't apply that same winning formula to a team that, in essence (i.e. taking the fact that age and positional downgrades have lowered the overall quality), can't play up to it.

 

[Ryan]

I don't know guys - I just think Manly is a team that thrives on strategy & structure, even if that has to change dependent on who your opponent is.

That's why I think coaches like Hasler got the best out of us, and why our players sometimes look better in representative teams.

A lot of people have suggested Toovey is old school, and a lot of his coaching is about passion and effort (which of coarse you need an element of).

Hodges would / could tear apart tiring defenses. He reminds of that guy that plays for The Cowboys - and I think is under rated - name escapes me.

The competition is far too close to base your coaching ad-lib and on the premise of passion. It's about 1%'ers, and knowing your opposition, and countering them.

 

[Fluffy]

Well you might be able to if we ever get our team on the park.

As a said before change is our biggest problem so proposing more makes no sense. Outside of Tom T and Hodges there are no viable options and we have played Tom T and Hodges 5 games for only 1 win so it doesn't make a difference.

 

[delz]

See my reasons in the Ivan Clearly thread why Toovey has to go..