Time to Unleash Moses the Monster in the centres

[manly al]

It's so tempting to see things this way...so tempting. When you've got a player with such ability that can just barge his way through holes, you see that and wonder why on earth we would let him walk...I still think like that...

But...

If he went out in a semi-final and Melbourne ran shape at him and he read the play wrong and they scored a try, we'd just as quickly roll out the red carpet for his farewell to St George. He is one poor read away from talented liability again. We are riding the emotion of his most recent performance and that is fair enough...but history says he is a very (and I mean very) poor defensive centre. I mean some of the crap he dished up against Penrith at Brookvale earlier in the year (granted his wasn't alone in this offering) is something I will never be able to forget. I was embarrassed.

Recall that Panthers game reasonably well too and who was on the edge with Suli that night , Morgan Boyle , [ not too bad a player actually when fit and as a prop ] but can never recall him previously playing on an edge at Manly .and completely out of his depth there . Not to mention the obvious general disorganized defensive structure still prevailing at that time and made worse against one of the better attacking sides . So to single Suli out , maybe not the best reflection on that occasion . Just for curiosity , during the final series in 2019 and when Suli was going really well and at least holding his own in defence , you seemed to suggest that Brad [ Parker ] was lacking a bit in his general play and finishing and a bit of a weak link . So not sure that Brad has improved to the extent of definitely being a better proposition then Suli now and taking into account that Suli is getting close to his best and even game breaking footy. Really don't have the same negativity with Suli "s defensive capacity . Obviously general consensus that Parker has improved since that time [ 2019 finals ] but also in the here and now , Suli has been in the top three performers for two full game consecutive games now and again with Turbo absent to enhance Suli 's game , something that Parker has benefited from most of this season . Just have a different take with a crucial and say for instance final 's game on the line , who is most likely to impact more to help break a game open , even allowing for the defensive considerations still would have to opt for Moses

 

[jbb/james]

The funny thing about stats and the suli story

For some time suli was on the right edge playing outside the crab and step inside man. Was purely used to ruck it out

turbo this year has made what looked like a very ordinary outside backs into the harlem Globetrotters. Suli has seen none of that

Suli has one game on the left and is almost MOM . Yes there were other factors. Both suli and sirro are being judged playing outside a 7 that gave them very limited options.

Harper is there now and tom feeds him
When tom plays the backs score at will

When tom is out our forwards regularly top the try scoring list. When tom plays we are in control and defensive reads are simpler and done under less fatigue and far less frequent . His issue is D but he only plays when we are under the pump all game


We need to tinker about a bit before we throw the baby out with the bathwater .

But what if his release brings us a better player

 

[mickqld]

I would have loved to see Suli get a game with Tom. The utter confusion that Tom causes defense lines would just open up so much space for Foran to put Suli through gaps. With Tom running an outside line and Foran putting Suli back inside it would be just great to watch the dogs defense try and handle that.

 

[Dan]

I would have loved to see Suli get a game with Tom. The utter confusion that Tom causes defense lines would just open up so much space for Foran to put Suli through gaps. With Tom running an outside line and Foran putting Suli back inside it would be just great to watch the dogs defense try and handle that.

maybe but whilst tom causes other teams defense confusion and problems, Suli does the same for ours

 

[Tragic Eagle]

I prefer Parker because he gives the ball to his winger in space and that gives the winger the opportunity to use his blistering speed. In addition to that Parker’s defence is very reliable. So I’d continue picking Suli as 18th man. But Harper looks like he needs a rest to get over his leg injury so a good opportunity for that against the dogs.

 

[Snake]

Recall that Panthers game reasonably well too and who was on the edge with Suli that night , Morgan Boyle , [ not too bad a player actually when fit and as a prop ] but can never recall him previously playing on an edge at Manly .and completely out of his depth there . Not to mention the obvious general disorganized defensive structure still prevailing at that time and made worse against one of the better attacking sides . So to single Suli out , maybe not the best reflection on that occasion . Just for curiosity , during the final series in 2019 and when Suli was going really well and at least holding his own in defence , you seemed to suggest that Brad [ Parker ] was lacking a bit in his general play and finishing and a bit of a weak link . So not sure that Brad has improved to the extent of definitely being a better proposition then Suli now and taking into account that Suli is getting close to his best and even game breaking footy. Really don't have the same negativity with Suli "s defensive capacity . Obviously general consensus that Parker has improved since that time [ 2019 finals ] but also in the here and now , Suli has been in the top three performers for two full game consecutive games now and again with Turbo absent to enhance Suli 's game , something that Parker has benefited from most of this season . Just have a different take with a crucial and say for instance final 's game on the line , who is most likely to impact more to help break a game open , even allowing for the defensive considerations still would have to opt for Moses

Re your comments about the Panthers game; it's not so much what others were doing around him, it was his body language and complete lack of urgency that stood out. I am not blaming the tries solely on him but when there is danger down an edge, you want to see a player rip in (a la Morgan Harper) not fling an arm out and be turn-styled, before dropping their head in disinterest.

As for Parker, I think he has improved considerably. He was always pretty good defensively (can be caught out for a lack of speed so not suggesting he is bulletproof) but has developed a really good decoy that makes Tom more dangerous down that left side in attack. Suli's bash and barge would be less likely to break a game open against a side like Melbourne than Tommy coming around the back of a Parker decoy.

If Suli was on 350k, I'd say he is worth keeping and he can force Dessie's hand over the next 12 months (may the best man win type scenario) but for 550K, it's not a smart contract.

I think your opinion is very valid and there is a part of me that would like to see Suli given another go but at 550k a year, the safe bet for our club moving forward is to retain the status quo that has us fighting for a top 4 spot this weekend.

 

[Dan]

In attack he is a quality player there is no denying it, the guy can play. However his overall value is not greater than Harper or Parker.

Parker is an earnest hard working player that whilst not a world beating centre is overall perfect for our structures.
Suli is too good to be the 18th man, but he is not better than what we have.

IMO if we can keep him at $200k he is worth keeping but probably too expensive to keep on the bench. If he could be taught to defend like harper or Parker he would be unstoppable.

As for Parker and his defense, remember when Manu V was unstoppable, we brought Parker in on the wing to fill in for injury and he absolutely belted Manu in defense. Parker may not be flashy and he is certainly slow, but his defense is top shelf

 

[manly al]

Re your comments about the Panthers game; it's not so much what others were doing around him, it was his body language and complete lack of urgency that stood out. I am not blaming the tries solely on him but when there is danger down an edge, you want to see a player rip in (a la Morgan Harper) not fling an arm out and be turn-styled, before dropping their head in disinterest.

As for Parker, I think he has improved considerably. He was always pretty good defensively (can be caught out for a lack of speed so not suggesting he is bulletproof) but has developed a really good decoy that makes Tom more dangerous down that left side in attack. Suli's bash and barge would be less likely to break a game open against a side like Melbourne than Tommy coming around the back of a Parker decoy.

If Suli was on 350k, I'd say he is worth keeping and he can force Dessie's hand over the next 12 months (may the best man win type scenario) but for 550K, it's not a smart contract.

I think your opinion is very valid and there is a part of me that would like to see Suli given another go but at 550k a year, the safe bet for our club moving forward is to retain the status quo that has us fighting for a top 4 spot this weekend.

Good points and guess that Suli 's present contract value is another matter again and 550 k even though he is showing some good form now , a bit on the higher side . In terms of running lines and decoy aspect and effectiveness , can't see any reason why Suli could not be as useful as Parker and no doubt even more intimindating for a defence to contend with . and really disappointing that Suli has had no real opportunity to show his wares this season with Turbo in the back line with him . Guess that the conundrum still is whether Suli can offer more then Parker against the front runners and offer a more vital edge. Just hope that if Manly can't quite get to the premiership level with Brad there and if Suli moves on that someone like Koula can provide it . If not , quite sure that there will be regret letting Suli go with one more year on his contract remaining

 

[StuBoot]

In attack he is a quality player there is no denying it, the guy can play. However his overall value is not greater than Harper or Parker.

Yep, spot on @Dan.

I think if you asked most fans who they want in their teams each week.
The guy that averages 7/10 each week with the occasional 9 and the occasional 5
or
The guy that averages 5/10 each week with the occasional 9.5 and the occasional 3?

Simplistic I know.
Sound about right?

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

We've had quite a good run for the past month or 2, and I don't like to contemplate it but realistically we are going to lose players to injury or suspension. Our depth will be tested but for once we look like we do have some decent depth, if you look at guys who aren't in the 17 this week but are or will soon be available. Suli has put himself at the top of the list for a back replacement. We've also got the likes of Cust, Paseka, Keppie.
Chances are we'll need everyone before this thing is finished.

 

[QLDSeaeagle]

The guy that averages 5/10 each week with the occasional 9.5 and the occasional 3?

Just how many chances do you give to a bloke, he was hailed as the next big thing in 2017, followed by
Sleeping in his car instead of training at Tigers.
A contract with the Dogs that lasted 28 days due to many indiscretions in that period.
We give him a lifeline in 2018, but after 5 games dropped for disciplinary reasons (missed training) (missed the plane to NZ, lost passport)
April 2019 dropped again for not meeting disciplinary standards.
2020 13 games then season ending injury.
2021 On again/off again season. Told he was free to prospect other clubs, MOM performance.

So he has had 5 years to get his act together, But it hasn't happened, let someone else baby this juvenile through his extended puberty, Brad is a grown up who turns up, NO CONTEST.

 

[StuBoot]

We've had quite a good run for the past month or 2, and I don't like to contemplate it but realistically we are going to lose players to injury or suspension. Our depth will be tested but for once we look like we do have some decent depth, if you look at guys who aren't in the 17 this week but are or will soon be available. Suli has put himself at the top of the list for a back replacement. We've also got the likes of Cust, Paseka, Keppie.
Chances are we'll need everyone before this thing is finished.

Agree @SeaEagleRock8.

All the talk of how the injury toll is on the Chooks - at the wrong end of the season - but may get Morris, Crighton and Radley back for the finals, even then there's a lot of no names in the squad.

We at one stage had around 9 of our top 30 out for an extended period but as you say with the four you mentioned our top 21 now looks strong at the right time of the year but that can all turn just as quickly.
It's a good place to be in.

Parra have lost Sivo and Mahoney for the season and Matterson and RCG until the finals, not that I care.

 

[Snake]

can't see any reason why Suli could not be as useful as Parker and no doubt even more intimindating for a defence to contend with . and really disappointing that Suli has had no real opportunity to show his wares this season with Turbo in the back line with him .

Running lines can be coached to an extent but the timing, intensity, angle of the run and a players perception of which line is correct at any given time are what seperate good line runners from others. If you look at the likes of Ryan Hoffman and Ben Creagh (who got it right more often than not), it's not a case of simply being coached, or others would have rivalled their success. There is obviously something innate in a player that makes them more or less effective in this capacity.

It's like anything in RL...We put Garrick at back and run the same structures but he is never going to pull the right reign at the right time like Tom can. We put Keppie in place of Jake T and our middle is no longer as tight, yet they've both been coached to tackle. It's no different to running lines.

I agree with your point about it being a shame that Moses hasn't had an opportunity on the end of some of Tom's devastating performances. Who knows what he is capable of in those circumstances.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I agree with your point about it being a shame that Moses hasn't had an opportunity on the end of some of Tom's devastating performances. Who knows what he is capable of in those circumstances.

I'm sure many of us agree about that, but it's also obvious that anything he might have achieved against the Bulldogs this week wouldn't really prove a thing, unfortunately for him.

 

[The Who]

If not this match I do think Suli will be given a chance in the centres in round 25.

 

[mickqld]

......As for Parker, I think he has improved considerably. He was always pretty good defensively (can be caught out for a lack of speed so not suggesting he is bulletproof) but has developed a really good decoy that makes Tom more dangerous down that left side in attack. Suli's bash and barge would be less likely to break a game open against a side like Melbourne than Tommy coming around the back of a Parker decoy......

That is the issue I have. Opposition defenses in the finals will know we always use Parker as the decoy so it makes it easier to concentrate on Tom. With Suli you can go wide with Turbo or Foran uses the inside ball to Suli. Gives more options to split defenses and make them more hesitant. Suli preys on a hesitant defense on the inside of a wide play as he did against the faders. Predictability will not win finals games against Panfers or purplescum.

 

[Highflier]

If not this match I do think Suli will be given a chance in the centres in round 25.

I mean why wouldn't you give either Parker or Harper a little rest over the next 2 weeks ,poor old Scorpio has been bashed from pillar to post not just by his own hand and but from others as well over the last 2 years , and Harper looks like he could handle one week as a ball boy and give his knee ? a rest up.Good to have some depth for once ,lets just focus on fully fit high performance players for all the remaining games and into the finals and ultimately the GF!!!!

 

[Snake]

That is the issue I have. Opposition defenses in the finals will know we always use Parker as the decoy so it makes it easier to concentrate on Tom. With Suli you can go wide with Turbo or Foran uses the inside ball to Suli. Gives more options to split defenses and make them more hesitant. Suli preys on a hesitant defense on the inside of a wide play as he did against the faders. Predictability will not win finals games against Panfers or purplescum.

Parker has scored a number of tries running off Foran due to defence looking at Tom out the back. Foz is great at making a decisions as to hitting short of going out the back. Also, from the TV cameras it looks simple, but when you are defending in the line and you have a big red fire engine running full pelt at you, it holds the line up no what's been worked on at training.

 

[Brookie Bob]

In attack he is a quality player there is no denying it, the guy can play. However his overall value is not greater than Harper or Parker.

Parker is an earnest hard working player that whilst not a world beating centre is overall perfect for our structures.
Suli is too good to be the 18th man, but he is not better than what we have.

IMO if we can keep him at $200k he is worth keeping but probably too expensive to keep on the bench. If he could be taught to defend like harper or Parker he would be unstoppable.

As for Parker and his defense, remember when Manu V was unstoppable, we brought Parker in on the wing to fill in for injury and he absolutely belted Manu in defense. Parker may not be flashy and he is certainly slow, but his defense is top shelf

parker has belted Sivo as well - there's two fair scalps

 

[HK_Eagle]

That is the issue I have. Opposition defenses in the finals will know we always use Parker as the decoy so it makes it easier to concentrate on Tom. With Suli you can go wide with Turbo or Foran uses the inside ball to Suli. Gives more options to split defenses and make them more hesitant. Suli preys on a hesitant defense on the inside of a wide play as he did against the faders. Predictability will not win finals games against Panfers or purplescum.

Along with Snake, I disagree. Parker has scored his fair share of tries... he is not simply a decoy. When we are in the attacking zone, Parker is a real threat because of his innate ability to run good lines. It overcomes his pace challenges. Where he struggles is in the middle third. Mind you, Suli is no speed demon neither and is not going to score any tries from the middle third, though he may make more bustling meters when he's on.