"Taking Unders", and the decline of the once-great clubs in the modern game

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AlxFromNthNarra

Rarely does big posts worth reading....maybe
Players taking Unders to stay at Manly.

THAT is what I crave to read about our club again. It's unfair, it's against the spirit of the game - but I love Manly and will give them certain exceptions in pursuit of success.

But we don't demand success in the same way anymore...do we? So.....what is the alternative? We don't collect spoons yet.... but we ARE an... Also. Ran. Club. In the modern era anyway

Looking at you Scotty (Penn) - how are you promoting our club's privilege above your own? Vegas? Maybe. Let's see if Hugh Jackman decides to Gladiator it out with Rusty Crowe. It could be our greatest attention-seeking win - or not.

And whilst on Penn, what are you actually going to do, other than milk the new-found US cow for your own benefit? Please. Please....prove me wrong. I would relish you to show us up here. Turn the Vegas showase into a club-benefitting outcome, rather than some personally reinforcing ego hit.

Otherwise - WTF are you doing with our club? None of us want this club to be the foundation of your self-promotion. We are not getting the results we are used to as supporters. We don't give a flying FK about your personal, egotistically driven powertrip.

===========================

This is meant as a SERIOUS THREAD. The club management is seemingly starting to accept a mid-table mediocrity that is an acceptance of defeat in the new NRL era.

We can either be one of the 'hero clubs' that gets the league leg-up, or we become a club where mediocrity governs our position - as the NRL re-defines its landscape under V'Landys.

Fool yourself all you want - this is the cut-throat era of NRL, and its winner takes all. NEWSFLASH - we aren't the 'winners' of the 70-90's and we haven't been for a long time now. Not since V'Landys got involved anyway. We need to differentiate against the status-quo and recreate our 21st-century identity.

We aren't Silvertails in pracitice anymore, not in a way we can bank on, with a manner of complacency.

======================

I'm always reading this about players moving-to/staying-with other clubs like Rooters and Penrith. For "Unders"

Just this is the last week alone:
  • John Bateman prepared to take unders to join Roosters and break his 4-year contract at Tigers - after 1 year....totally normal of course.
  • Jarome Luai told he won't get more than (600-650k) to stay with Panthers, when market-value he could fetch 900k - but wtf would the SMH know - he will stay at Panthers and every media outlet will justify this decision as an understandable move, a cultural fit - even if Penrith win a 3rd premiership on the trot, the competition is closer than ever!
Pity, that when Manly tried it in the past - like with Gifty - its called out as being against the rules/spirit of the game and vetoed by the NRL (well....maybe it was just that twat Greenberg).

Gifty was Manly. Bleeds Manly. Listen to Jake talk about him at his 200th. The guy IS FKN MANLY. It was beatiful to hear.

Yet the NRL saw Gifty's retention as an imbalance. The NRL (at the time) were like.... yeah....nah mate. Off to Souths with ya. Even tho Brett is lame for a season and Matai's (seriously godly) shoulders are shot.....nup. Gifty eyeballed me after the 2011 GF, and that is direspectful (Todd.....probably).

However, now we as a collective NRL supporter-base are cool with this 'unders' idea a few years later? Why? What happened? Don't people see where this leads?

Seems when other teams do this nowadays - retention-by-loyalty-or-culture schtick - its kinda accepted as fair play. And the players doing this are empathised with. What is best for their careers blah blah blah - even if they break a 4-year contract, and crush the supporters' dreams at the same time (Bateman).

I am surely not the only one who has a problem with this.

If we continue this trend then we entrench an "English Premier League" type of privilege in which some clubs always compete for glory. Hello Rooters (Manchester United), Panthers (Manchester City), Broncos (Liverpool), Souths (Russell-Crowe-by-Tyne) and Storm (Arsenal) as the main offenders - and other clubs can burn in the mediocrity bloodbath. When does relegation kick-in plzz?

From Manly's perspective, it would be nice to retain talented juniors like Kaeo. We showed this year that depth players get a run - we rarely escape the injury bogeyman it seems.

Is Kaeo the perfect player? Perhaps not.... but we developed him, trained him, gave him (admittedly limited) opportunity - and now he potentially goes to open market, coz we have a few players (who may get injured) ahead in the pecking-order and we can't afford him? a player with 12 starting games to his record?

Same with the Fainus' (I get their manager played the game), to get a bloated deal from the Tigers, not long after securing a bloated deal with Manly for a 1st-grade contract (when in reggies) worth a LOT. Was that the Fulton switcheroo, or forward-loading brilliance on the part of Scott Fulton/Tigers?.... we'll see soon enough i'm sure. The Storm would have got them at half the price if they were keen i bet.

I just hope the "Seibold system" at Manly returns us to a place which players crave to operate in. Listening to an interview/podcast with Turbo recently on his 2023 season & injuries, it brings up the differences between the styles of coaches like Des and Seibs. Quite the enlightening interview.

Thank goodness the Trbo's (plural) are more club-loyalty aligned than the NRL narrative promotes. These Trbojevic's are a blessing to our club, and if you disagree with that, then fine - I will disagree with you. STRONGLY. We can still be friends but!

However, i'm sure the NRL would be fine with green-lighting the entire Trbojevic clan moving to the Rooters, despite their heritage on the n.beaches. For "unders" of course....

Guess we will see in the coming year whether the Seibs system pulls in people 'on unders' - because the current NRL tolerance of players 'taking unders' combined with some clubs TPA advantages is truly creating an NRL class system. And lets face it - Manly need to re-discover that Silvertail history to ensure we don't wind up on the wrong side of that re-alignment.

Players talk about the potential 'privilege' of playing with guys like Tom/Jake - but will they take unders for that privilege? If we are truly Silvertails in the modern game (versus the silver-feathers of the well-known chicken-type based out of Bondi), then we need to secure both our youth, and our talent recruitment.

What makes the Rooters 'privilege' more attractive, according to John Bateman, than the stereotypical 'Silvertails' brand of privilege and status? Even when we have the best corner of the world to live in as our club-perk? Politis-endorsed paperbags? better TPAs? Thats a Penn problem to service - and they need to get with the Program.

Joey Manu is rumoured to have been able to command 7-figures from 2021 - yet hasn't moved from Rooters (yet), deciding to stay "paid at" at the lower-paid Center paypacket than fullback or 5/8th or half pay.

Being told that the same $$ for Haumole is more than what Liam Martin accepts to stay put. Dylan Edwards being 66% the value of Turbo. Nathan Cleary worth < DCE.

And thats just 1 club (Panthers), with players that choose to live out West that in Northern Beaches??

Wait til you hear what Reece Walsh is on.....or Gutho. What Rooters got Dom Young for... and it ends up being less than players of lower impact at less-privileged clubs like STG, Tigers, Raiders, Knights....and yes, Manly stump up for players with lesser records.

Ultimately we become Everton. West-Ham United. Aston Villa. Teams that may perennially compete in the top-league, but can never win it - unless you're Leicester, 1 outstanding year/premiership aganst impossible odds - and now a relegation story. Punishment for defiance the status-quo. How dare you. Minnows.

Gould is discovering that what worked 5-10 years ago at Panthers isn't fit-for-purpose at the Dogs today. His style of club-structuring is already past used-by - Gould's influence has peaked.

What happens to the legacy clubs that can't pivot to a new NRL era of club-favoured privilege under V'landys? Can the Penns' adjust to this "new world order"? Maybe the club depends on frivilous tokenistic gesture like Vegas or Magic-round to keep the Penns in the black on club ownership - and if so, grats on breaking even.... so happy for you.

Maybe the Seibs System can transcend this over time, and bring us both the juniors and the systemic appeal for players a club needs to occupy a dominant position in the league. Maybe. Maybe not.

Other than home-grown talent, we aren't a destination target for players right now - and as a result we pay Liam Martin money for players like Tuilagi, that are in the early stages of their career.

For truly elite players (ie Kolomatangi) to consider us an option when at the peak of their careers, they will be looking at the clubs' pedigree and performance in the most recent history - the players are here for a good time not a long time. Lets face it: what is the last player we attracted - at the PEAK of their career - that other clubs coveted? If a player like Kolomatangi signs with us from the Souths system....wow, We have the answers we need and lets get the party started. But we won't need him, lets be realistic.

A player like Luke Brooks can be regarded as the biggest signing by our club in the past 10-years. I'm optimistic about what his impact will be. Lets see if he was worthy of a 10-year marquee signing at a club (any club), and if he will be an upgrade on Kieran Foran.
 
Last edited:

Waz13

Let’s all have a chew!
Players taking Unders to stay at Manly.

THAT is what I crave to read about our club again. It's unfair, it's against the spirit of the game - but I love Manly and will give them certain exceptions in pursuit of success.

But we don't demand success in the same way anymore...do we? So.....what is the alternative? We don't collect spoons yet.... but we ARE an... Also. Ran. Club. In the modern era anyway

Looking at you Scotty (Penn) - how are you promoting our club's privilege above your own? Vegas? Maybe. Let's see if Hugh Jackman decides to Gladiator it out with Rusty Crowe. It could be our greatest attention-seeking win - or not.

And whilst on Penn, what are you actually going to do, other than milk the new-found US cow for your own benefit? Please. Please....prove me wrong. I would relish you to show us up here. Turn the Vegas showase into a club-benefitting outcome, rather than some personally reinforcing ego hit.

Otherwise - WTF are you doing with our club? None of us want this club to be the foundation of your self-promotion. We are not getting the results we are used to as supporters. We don't give a flying FK about your personal, egotistically driven powertrip.

===========================

This is meant as a SERIOUS THREAD. The club management is seemingly starting to accept a mid-table mediocrity that is an acceptance of defeat in the new NRL era.

We can either be one of the 'hero clubs' that gets the league leg-up, or we become a club where mediocrity governs our position - as the NRL re-defines its landscape under V'Landys.

Fool yourself all you want - this is the cut-throat era of NRL, and its winner takes all. NEWSFLASH - we aren't the 'winners' of the 70-90's and we haven't been for a long time now. Not since V'Landys got involved anyway. We need to differentiate against the status-quo and recreate our 21st-century identity.

We aren't Silvertails in pracitice anymore, not in a way we can bank on, with a manner of complacency.

======================

I'm always reading this about players moving-to/staying-with other clubs like Rooters and Penrith. For "Unders"

Just this is the last week alone:
  • John Bateman prepared to take unders to join Roosters and break his 4-year contract at Tigers - after 1 year....totally normal of course.
  • Jarome Luai told he won't get more than (600-650k) to stay with Panthers, when market-value he could fetch 900k - but wtf would the SMH know - he will stay at Panthers and every media outlet will justify this decision as an understandable move, a cultural fit - even if Penrith win a 3rd premiership on the trot, the competition is closer than ever!
Pity, that when Manly tried it in the past - like with Gifty - its called out as being against the rules/spirit of the game and vetoed by the NRL (well....maybe it was just that twat Greenberg).

Gifty was Manly. Bleeds Manly. Listen to Jake talk about him at his 200th. The guy IS FKN MANLY. It was beatiful to hear.

Yet the NRL saw Gifty's retention as an imbalance. The NRL (at the time) were like.... yeah....nah mate. Off to Souths with ya. Even tho Brett is lame for a season and Matai's (seriously godly) shoulders are shot.....nup. Gifty eyeballed me after the 2011 GF, and that is direspectful (Todd.....probably).

However, now we as a collective NRL supporter-base are cool with this 'unders' idea a few years later? Why? What happened? Don't people see where this leads?

Seems when other teams do this nowadays - retention-by-loyalty-or-culture schtick - its kinda accepted as fair play. And the players doing this are empathised with. What is best for their careers blah blah blah - even if they break a 4-year contract, and crush the supporters' dreams at the same time (Bateman).

I am surely not the only one who has a problem with this.

If we continue this trend then we entrench an "English Premier League" type of privilege in which some clubs always compete for glory. Hello Rooters (Manchester United), Panthers (Manchester City), Broncos (Liverpool), Souths (Russell-Crowe-by-Tyne) and Storm (Arsenal) as the main offenders - and other clubs can burn in the mediocrity bloodbath. When does relegation kick-in plzz?

From Manly's perspective, it would be nice to retain talented juniors like Kaeo. We showed this year that depth players get a run - we rarely escape the injury bogeyman it seems.

Is Kaeo the perfect player? Perhaps not.... but we developed him, trained him, gave him (admittedly limited) opportunity - and now he potentially goes to open market, coz we have a few players (who may get injured) ahead in the pecking-order and we can't afford him? a player with 12 starting games to his record?

Same with the Fainus' (I get their manager played the game), to get a bloated deal from the Tigers, not long after securing a bloated deal with Manly for a 1st-grade contract (when in reggies) worth a LOT. Was that the Fulton switcheroo, or forward-loading brilliance on the part of Scott Fulton/Tigers?.... we'll see soon enough i'm sure. The Storm would have got them at half the price if they were keen i bet.

I just hope the "Seibold system" at Manly returns us to a place which players crave to operate in. Listening to an interview/podcast with Turbo recently on his 2023 season & injuries, it brings up the differences between the styles of coaches like Des and Seibs. Quite the enlightening interview.

Thank goodness the Trbo's (plural) are more club-loyalty aligned than the NRL narrative promotes. These Trbojevic's are a blessing to our club, and if you disagree with that, then fine - I will disagree with you. STRONGLY. We can still be friends but!

However, i'm sure the NRL would be fine with green-lighting the entire Trbojevic clan moving to the Rooters, despite their heritage on the n.beaches. For "unders" of course....

Guess we will see in the coming year whether the Seibs system pulls in people 'on unders' - because the current NRL tolerance of players 'taking unders' combined with some clubs TPA advantages is truly creating an NRL class system. And lets face it - Manly need to re-discover that Silvertail history to ensure we don't wind up on the wrong side of that re-alignment.

Players talk about the potential 'privilege' of playing with guys like Tom/Jake - but will they take unders for that privilege? If we are truly Silvertails in the modern game (versus the silver-feathers of the well-known chicken-type based out of Bondi), then we need to secure both our youth, and our talent recruitment.

What makes the Rooters 'privilege' more attractive, according to John Bateman, than the stereotypical 'Silvertails' brand of privilege and status? Even when we have the best corner of the world to live in as our club-perk? Politis-endorsed paperbags? better TPAs? Thats a Penn problem to service - and they need to get with the Program.

Joey Manu is rumoured to have been able to command 7-figures from 2021 - yet hasn't moved from Rooters (yet), deciding to stay "paid at" at the lower-paid Center paypacket than fullback or 5/8th or half pay.

Being told that the same $$ for Haumole is more than what Liam Martin accepts to stay put. Dylan Edwards being 66% the value of Turbo. Nathan Cleary worth < DCE.

And thats just 1 club (Panthers), with players that choose to live out West that in Northern Beaches??

Wait til you hear what Reece Walsh is on.....or Gutho. What Rooters got Dom Young for... and it ends up being less than players of lower impact at less-privileged clubs like STG, Tigers, Raiders, Knights....and yes, Manly stump up for players with lesser records.

Ultimately we become Everton. West-Ham United. Aston Villa. Teams that may perennially compete in the top-league, but can never win it - unless you're Leicester, 1 outstanding year/premiership aganst impossible odds - and now a relegation story. Punishment for defiance the status-quo. How dare you. Minnows.

Gould is discovering that what worked 5-10 years ago at Panthers isn't fit-for-purpose at the Dogs today. His style of club-structuring is already past used-by - Gould's influence has peaked.

What happens to the legacy clubs that can't pivot to a new NRL era of club-favoured privilege under V'landys? Can the Penns' adjust to this "new world order"? Maybe the club depends on frivilous tokenistic gesture like Vegas or Magic-round to keep the Penns in the black on club ownership - and if so, grats on breaking even.... so happy for you.

Maybe the Seibs System can transcend this over time, and bring us both the juniors and the systemic appeal for players a club needs to occupy a dominant position in the league. Maybe. Maybe not.

Other than home-grown talent, we aren't a destination target for players right now - and as a result we pay Liam Martin money for players like Tuilagi, that are in the early stages of their career.

For truly elite players (ie Kolomatangi) to consider us an option when at the peak of their careers, they will be looking at the clubs' pedigree and performance in the most recent history - the players are here for a good time not a long time. Lets face it: what is the last player we attracted - at the PEAK of their career - that other clubs coveted? If a player like Kolomatangi signs with us from the Souths system....wow, We have the answers we need and lets get the party started. But we won't need him, lets be realistic.

A player like Luke Brooks can be regarded as the biggest signing by our club in the past 10-years. I'm optimistic about what his impact will be. Lets see if he was worthy of a 10-year marquee signing at a club (any club), and if he will be an upgrade on Kieran Foran.
Word!
 

Frogz

Bencher
Premium Member
We don't seem to have the under table cash for players to take "unders". Amazes me that the RLPA and players fought so long for more money, now every man and his dog will take less cash. I call bullsh1t.
 

Eagle 1

First Grader
Wow..that's the longest post I've ever read on here. To burn the early morning oil at 2am to write this tells me this has been bugging you for a long time. I've excepted the new modern era of the NRL with all its failings and together with most on here, I just go with the flow now....
 

maxta

First Grader
Premium Member
I definitely feel Penrith have built a strong connection and culture with the players and it shows on the field how much they back each other and have each others back.
Similar to the Manly sides around that 2008 and a few years after timeline.
But when I hear players staying for less to go to or stay at the Roosters, somehing smells a bit funny.
In fact I question it Big time.
Back to Manly, we have a few "long term" players that should reduce the cap and is DCE on less from 2024 ??
To be fair, I really feel our Manly 2024 side if staying healthy, are genuine challengers, especially now we have that extra heat from dummy half and Brooks another true strike player....add a fit Tom, Paseka and we are pretty good.
 

The Who

Journey Man
Great post. Well thought out and constructed.
I too despise the way Easts are portrayed as a "super club" that everybody wants to play for. I can't believe more hasn't been made of Dom Young turning his back on the club that made him, and are better performed this season, to join Easts who continue to have a roster poorer clubs dream about.
If the NRL was serious about having an even competition we'd have a draft system like they have in most other sports. If Young was so keen to leave Newcastle then his option should have been to join the Tuggers or another bottom-placed club. That would have changed his thinking.
 

Disco

First Grader
Premium Member
Predominantly I think there are 3 reasons players take unders.

1. Dodgy dealings - they aren't actually and they are getting off the books payments or TPAs

2. A group of players come through together, have success together and want to stay together. Ala the Panthers currently or Manly back in the Stewarts, Watmough et al era.

3. A player can join a club with sustained demonstrated success. Particularly a player without a premiership chasing one late in their career.

As an aside, "unders" is an interesting and fluid concept.

You could argue as represented value at any given time or you could argue contract accepted compared to others offered.

By this I mean, Jake and Tom were, according to reports, offered more by the Dogs, so in the sense you can argue they stayed for "unders" whilst on the flipside you could say they didn't offer 2 million in value this year so they are on "overs"......it is all how you want to frame the conversation.
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
Take Underachievers and your club will decline Perspective ...

The Biggest Reason for the Biggest Decline of Great clubs in the Modern Era
Is Investing in Underachievers as Underachievers fail to Deliver !

Here are the facts and everything else is a fiction of underachieving excuses .
The Bottom of the 8 Underachieving Clubs
The Pascoes at the Tigers ,
The Doust at the Dragons
and Mestrov and Seibold at Manly
1694045330117.png
 

47MVEagle

Bencher
So there’s “market value” as established by the NRL.

There’s “unders” which implies less than “market value”.

Then there’s how much a player/manager can demand from the open market.

I think as long as the “unders” is not less than the “market value” then the NRL will allow it.

However, as others have mentioned, accepting “unders” to sign for the Roosters means receiving under the table &/or 3rd party payments that bring their total remuneration to a much larger amount.
 

Harmless27

Reserve Grader
I read all of that, and I am not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying the the system is broken? I.e. we need to review the salary cap process because it is no longer fair?
or are you saying that we should get rid of the cap and work the system harder?
Or are you just saying that its all broken and we aren't as good at rorting the system as other clubs?
Or are you just saying you don't like Penn?

Happy to engage in the conversation, I am just not sure what your opinion/solution is?

For me - get rid of the cap and the equalisation. I am happy to support under performing clubs to get back to competitiveness (i.e. new clubs entering the comp being given a larger share of TV revenue to get themselves established etc).

But for me, there should be a free market to encourage competition and improvement.

I have no problem with rich clubs buying good players - it forces us to improve to compete. They can't have every player (hence I actually think the answer is to reduce the squad of 30 down to a squad of 26 - reducing the ability of clubs to stockpile quality)
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
It is simple Business logic
You Hire Shrewd People and they will Raise your Higher !

The Salary cap is only as affective as the shrewd club salary cap people that manage it
You have Shrewd Management
Dumb Management
and Miss management

Successful Business is about making the right choices
Choose losers and you underachieve and lose

There have been thriving organisations gone bankrupt because of Dumb and Miss management
There have been organisations on the brink of Bankruptcy that were made to thrive by Shrewd Management

The moral of the story
The Greatest Investment of any Organisation is the Smart people that it Invests in .
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
No smart organisation hires and pays people to offer excuses
They hire and pay them to find solutions and succeed

The most underwhelming , Uninspiring leaders are the Underachieving ones that come up with 100 Excuses for failing and were not capable of coming up with one great solution to succeed
 

StuBoot

Bencher
It's the
So there’s “market value” as established by the NRL.

There’s “unders” which implies less than “market value”.

Then there’s how much a player/manager can demand from the open market.

I think as long as the “unders” is not less than the “market value” then the NRL will allow it.

However, as others have mentioned, accepting “unders” to sign for the Roosters means receiving under the table &/or 3rd party payments that bring their total remuneration to a much larger amount.
It's the TPA's that makes it an interesting and blurry conversation when it comes to "market value"
Does the NRL factor in the TPA plus footy salary to come up with his market value?

Look at Cooper Cronk - left the Storm for the Roosters.
His main reason for leaving the Storm was to move to Sydney as his wife was based here whilst working for FOX (plus he could too) = lifestyle and post footy job, tick.

He was never going to go to a low profile Sydney club whilst he still had plenty to offer so the Chooks got him for "unders" - FOX would have more than covered any salary shortfall, we just don't know how much and that's the problem, again does his TPA + Salary = Market Value which in turn is a minimal hit to the Roosters cap.

Another example is Aaron Woods, I'm sure I've seen him way more on FOX since he joined us than when he was at the Dragons.
Regardless of whether you think he should be playing 1st grade for us or not, obviously his TPA's with FOX and Triple M enables him to fill a roster spot on base $$$ and he's obviously happy with that. Again it helped with the Dragqueens and our Salary Cap.

The imbalance of those two examples are that despite them earning the right and showing aptitude for their respective TPA roles there are plenty of others that can't or don't.
Why can't they say "I've made good money over the years but I still want to play and will take "unders" for a year or two before I retire?
 
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AlxFromNthNarra

Rarely does big posts worth reading....maybe
Wow..that's the longest post I've ever read on here. To burn the early morning oil at 2am to write this tells me this has been bugging you for a long time. I've excepted the new modern era of the NRL with all its failings and together with most on here, I just go with the flow now....
Haha yeah im in a different timezone and i wrote it over a couple of days on the weekend before remembering to post it :) think it might have been powered by a few drinks....didn't realise how long it was after copy paste :O

But thanks everyone who gets through it.

(Probably should have TLDR versions on these haha)
 

The Who

Journey Man
But for me, there should be a free market to encourage competition and improvement.

I have no problem with rich clubs buying good players - it forces us to improve to compete. They can't have every player (hence I actually think the answer is to reduce the squad of 30 down to a squad of 26 - reducing the ability of clubs to stockpile quality)
If you allowed the wealthy clubs free reign then any chance of an 'even' competition would be lost. The same four clubs would fill the top four spots every year. It's been proven in EPL that money spent equals on field success, most occasions.
Allowing this would mean Manly would be wooden spooners most years (if our current owner remained). We have a limited junior talent pool so how would we attract good players? We'd not be able to compete financially, nor talent wise, so how would that force us to "improve to compete"?
The NRL 'cap' is good in theory but only works partially in practice. Easts are Exhibit No. 1.
But with a draft (yes, I know it was once deemed to be a restraint of trade but it works in other codes so there must be a way) you'd have clubs at the rear end of the field being able to recruit top players (provided they were prepared to pay the asking price). It would even out the talent and it should see struggling clubs improve until they are premiership contenders, and the success wheel would continue to turn.
 

AlxFromNthNarra

Rarely does big posts worth reading....maybe
I read all of that, and I am not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying the the system is broken? I.e. we need to review the salary cap process because it is no longer fair?
or are you saying that we should get rid of the cap and work the system harder?
Or are you just saying that its all broken and we aren't as good at rorting the system as other clubs?
Or are you just saying you don't like Penn?

Happy to engage in the conversation, I am just not sure what your opinion/solution is?

For me - get rid of the cap and the equalisation. I am happy to support under performing clubs to get back to competitiveness (i.e. new clubs entering the comp being given a larger share of TV revenue to get themselves established etc).

But for me, there should be a free market to encourage competition and improvement.

I have no problem with rich clubs buying good players - it forces us to improve to compete. They can't have every player (hence I actually think the answer is to reduce the squad of 30 down to a squad of 26 - reducing the ability of clubs to stockpile quality)
Yeah it rambles a bit, apologies for not being as succinct as I should be here, got carried away.

The major bugbear is the change in attitude towards the idea of market value of a player. It artificially inflates some clubs' salary cap, whilst shrinking others.

And nowadays its openly praised as 'good roster management' when it should be scaled back to what a player's value to the club should be, with considerations given for a club developing their own juniors.

When the Gifty move happened I was under the impression it was because the 'unders' we offered to keep the team intact was shut down by the NRL - I could be misled though. Now the concept of taking unders is openly discusssed as though its not an issue anymore. Why bother having a cap then?

Disagree with you on the move to an English Premier League model of rich clubs thrive though - watching the AFL season a bit this year and it has been so tight and close, and personally I enjoy that uncertainty more than watching a 1-sided belting more often than not.

Cheers!
 

AlxFromNthNarra

Rarely does big posts worth reading....maybe
Predominantly I think there are 3 reasons players take unders.

1. Dodgy dealings - they aren't actually and they are getting off the books payments or TPAs

2. A group of players come through together, have success together and want to stay together. Ala the Panthers currently or Manly back in the Stewarts, Watmough et al era.

3. A player can join a club with sustained demonstrated success. Particularly a player without a premiership chasing one late in their career.

As an aside, "unders" is an interesting and fluid concept.

You could argue as represented value at any given time or you could argue contract accepted compared to others offered.

By this I mean, Jake and Tom were, according to reports, offered more by the Dogs, so in the sense you can argue they stayed for "unders" whilst on the flipside you could say they didn't offer 2 million in value this year so they are on "overs"......it is all how you want to frame the conversation.
You make very good points.

I would say though that there are increasingly rare cases of players with the same club-loyalty the Trbojevics have. They genuinely want to stay at Manly and love the club in a way I don't see so much anymore.

Having a marquee player system which allocates concessions for players that fit the mould so they can't be forced to move like the Bulldogs example? But every club gets to have this concession. (that probably needs to be another post/topic tho!)
 

mickqld

Sea Eagle forever
Tipping Member
You can also lump on top of that Greenturd/ Gift rort the absolute shambolic way we were treated when we had a partnership with the Sunshine Coast Sea Eagles now Falcons. A blossoming, productive pipeline was taken away by that pissant scumbag piece of sh*t Greeturd and given to the purple scum all the while using the spineless NSWRL saying that we couldn't have 2 states league teams. Low and behold the very next year 2016 the purple scum have associations on Sunshine Coast , Brisbane Easts and North Sydney. This is the price this club has been paying on the back of self centered , corrupt scumbags running the game for their chosen few.
 

Marto1970

Reserve Grader
A now sacked coach said bring players in at a young age and getting them to love the culture and club and willing to stay on unders was getting harder , with every club chasing the next big gun the money offers was making it hard to keep them
 

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