So far off the pace

[Disco]

Some interesting back and forth in this thread and I think, as so often the case the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Firstly I'm a stats guy, I do think people can get in their own way with their personal bias. That said, stats can help support an argument, they cannot be an argument onto themselves.

Players like Cooper Cronk and Kieran Foran didnt always stuff the stat sheet but were hugely influential players. Also as @Dion Johnson has rightly pointed out there is a lot of value in the off the ball value that Jake brings that goes unrewarded (though I would like an uptick in the on the ball stuff too).

So IMO you need a bit of column A (stats) and a bit of column B (taking in what your eyes are telling you) when making a reasoned argument.

Which brings me to Rueben. Who I think has been both poor defensively and disproportionately maligned for his defense.....if that makes sense.

I think centre is the most difficult position to defend. I think right centre at Manly by Chez is an incredibly difficult position to defend and I think transitioning and learning in first grade is also difficult.

So it is not suprising that Rubes struggled...and make no mistake, he did struggle and teams did target him. That is why he made so many tackles. Now his contact and technique is not terrible hence his TE being solid but his reading and positioning at times was poor. Half of this is learning the position and half is our whole right side edge issue.

The good news is, individually at centre he has the ability to improve whether the edge can get it together is Seibs problem.

Will he get that opportunity.....well personally I'd move him back to wing but I wont be toys out of the cot if he lines up there to start 25.

 

[manlyfan76]

Remember we used to blame the wingers. Stayed out or came in too early.
Now it's the centre not reading the attack / numbers / positioning.

hmmmm

 

[Bearfax]

I see, Bearfax. I apologise if I misinterpreted your intention.

I apologise for giving you a hard time. By the way I was also a bit of a fan in the early to mid 1970s of the old Razor Blade Poet Cohen, and of course who can forget Suzanne takes me down to her place by the river. There were a few poet songwriters examining social issues back then including Dylan, Neil Young, Joan Baez, Carol King, Gerry Goffin etc. Interesting times to live through.

 

[Frogz]

Remember we used to blame the wingers. Stayed out or came in too early.
Now it's the centre not reading the attack / numbers / positioning.

hmmmm

Wingers only shine because they are marked by wingers

 

[Disco]

Remember we used to blame the wingers. Stayed out or came in too early.
Now it's the centre not reading the attack / numbers / positioning.

hmmmm

Personally I rarely blame the winger, often then are dragged in and exposed by players in field.

Look Chez exposes his outside men in defense quite often but Rubes is also guilty of many a bad read, these things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[maxta]

Just 1 thing to add regarding ANY outside defence.
DCE is known for "rushing up" which is a tactic other good sides use, especially Storm who if you had a drone footage, often close down attack giving away a 1-2 man overlap if they fail.
Thing is- - the attack rarely does get outside them and that's why a team like Penrith will often have Cleary kicking across field as a weapon, as Storm 7 foot wingers are way in field.
Why does it work ?
It's called the domino effect....where if an edge defender rushes up to "close down" the attack his outside defenders MUST ALL come in as 1 also.....the moment an outside defender does not mirror his/her inside defender, the defence will be exposed badly and watching Manly defend, so often the defenders do not react in unison and this is the biggest issue in adding pressure to players individually and Garrick has found himself in exactly this position and flat footed numerous occasions.

 

[BOZO]

Just 1 thing to add regarding ANY outside defence.
DCE is known for "rushing up" which is a tactic other good sides use, especially Storm who if you had a drone footage, often close down attack giving away a 1-2 man overlap if they fail.
Thing is- - the attack rarely does get outside them and that's why a team like Penrith will often have Cleary kicking across field as a weapon, as Storm 7 foot wingers are way in field.
Why does it work ?
It's called the domino effect....where if an edge defender rushes up to "close down" the attack his outside defenders MUST ALL come in as 1 also.....the moment an outside defender does not mirror his/her inside defender, the defence will be exposed badly and watching Manly defend, so often the defenders do not react in unison and this is the biggest issue in adding pressure to players individually and Garrick has found himself in exactly this position and flat footed numerous occasions.

Good job feathered friend

 

[LeonardCohen]

I apologise for giving you a hard time. By the way I was also a bit of a fan in the early to mid 1970s of the old Razor Blade Poet Cohen, and of course who can forget Suzanne takes me down to her place by the river. There were a few poet songwriters examining social issues back then including Dylan, Neil Young, Joan Baez, Carol King, Gerry Goffin etc. Interesting times to live through.

You’re a good man.
I’m also a fan of Paul Mccartney’s Waterfalls…‘don’t go chasing Polar bears, in the great unknown, some big friendly polar bear, might want to take you home…’
It’s a ripping tune if you haven’t heard it!

 

[BOZO]

You’re a good man.
I’m also a fan of Paul Mccartney’s Waterfalls…‘don’t go chasing Polar bears, in the great unknown, some big friendly polar bear, might want to take you home…’
It’s a ripping tune if you haven’t heard it!

I am a fan of Paul Mccartney as well feathered friend
Legend has it that Paul was a Manly Sea eagles supporter
and this is the reason he called his band Wings

 

[silvereagle]

so often the defenders do not react in unison and this is the biggest issue in adding pressure to players individually and Garrick has found himself in exactly this position and flat footed numerous occasions.

Spot on Maxta. My frustration is that this problem been around now for several seasons. Still not fixed. That's not good coaching. Not a good sign for 25.

 

[BOZO]

Spot on Maxta. My frustration is that this problem been around now for several seasons. Still not fixed. That's not good coaching. Not a good sign for 25.

Spot on !

There's gotta be an investigation into this! Someone's gotta be accountable for this!

 

[manlyfan76]

I apologise for giving you a hard time. By the way I was also a bit of a fan in the early to mid 1970s of the old Razor Blade Poet Cohen, and of course who can forget Suzanne takes me down to her place by the river. There were a few poet songwriters examining social issues back then including Dylan, Neil Young, Joan Baez, Carol King, Gerry Goffin etc. Interesting times to live through.

Just 1 thing to add regarding ANY outside defence.
DCE is known for "rushing up" which is a tactic other good sides use, especially Storm who if you had a drone footage, often close down attack giving away a 1-2 man overlap if they fail.
Thing is- - the attack rarely does get outside them and that's why a team like Penrith will often have Cleary kicking across field as a weapon, as Storm 7 foot wingers are way in field.
Why does it work ?
It's called the domino effect....where if an edge defender rushes up to "close down" the attack his outside defenders MUST ALL come in as 1 also.....the moment an outside defender does not mirror his/her inside defender, the defence will be exposed badly and watching Manly defend, so often the defenders do not react in unison and this is the biggest issue in adding pressure to players individually and Garrick has found himself in exactly this position and flat footed numerous occasions.

Not just flat footed but going back on the try line.

 

[jbb/james]

Just 1 thing to add regarding ANY outside defence.
DCE is known for "rushing up" which is a tactic other good sides use, especially Storm who if you had a drone footage, often close down attack giving away a 1-2 man overlap if they fail.
Thing is- - the attack rarely does get outside them and that's why a team like Penrith will often have Cleary kicking across field as a weapon, as Storm 7 foot wingers are way in field.
Why does it work ?
It's called the domino effect....where if an edge defender rushes up to "close down" the attack his outside defenders MUST ALL come in as 1 also.....the moment an outside defender does not mirror his/her inside defender, the defence will be exposed badly and watching Manly defend, so often the defenders do not react in unison and this is the biggest issue in adding pressure to players individually and Garrick has found himself in exactly this position and flat footed numerous occasions.

I agree on the Domino affect but defenders have obligations to watch the attacking line also, with fullbacks and wrap around defenders trying to add numbers . While the inside man makes the call to shoot up in the line, the line is also watching play and are just as in tuned to what they” the line” should be doing, and i suspect the shoot up is not what is on there minds. If most of the team thinks its a spread situation but shoot up occurs , you got nothing

If a defender instinctively acts differently to the line, its ideal if they react like a fine tuned chaos

Bad reads are bad reads, its a tactic that needs a statistic to make it real i suppose, just playing with that last bit, its the vibe max

 

[Bearfax]

You’re a good man.
I’m also a fan of Paul Mccartney’s Waterfalls…‘don’t go chasing Polar bears, in the great unknown, some big friendly polar bear, might want to take you home…’
It’s a ripping tune if you haven’t heard it!

Thanks for the complement. Unfortunately I'm not that good a man. I have many faults and can be a pain in the a... I just try to be fair and pragmatic. Its a struggle though.

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

We were more on the ‘pace’ than 10 other teams in 2024. Sure, it’s not exactly the halcyon days of 1968-78, 2005-2014, et al.

However things could be decidedly worse.

 

[manly al]

Worthwhile question could be if Rueben can or is capable of addressing that bit of defective technique in aiming up defensively .
Really do not think that that alone and if it can improve slightly , is going to result in that much difference in Manly "s overall competitiveness in his edge side defence [ though would help a bit ] as obviously not the only individual who ideally can lift their game in those positions there .
Talau for instance could well offer a slightly better input there defensively but alternatively would probably offer a bit less attacking or pace wise then Rueben .
Be good to think that the present personal defensively on both sides , could say well replicate that quite effective up and in and then slide action from that highly successful 2007 - 2014 era
Bit different circumstances all round now with attacking and defensive structures in the more modern era however .
Saab has gradually improved his defensive capability on his side the past couple of seasons , not too sure with Haumole [ who would really need just some marginal improvement ] but more so with D C E and as it mainly always has been .
So guess that it just comes down to the Garrick - Talau centre option , and that is if the quite major or significant step of moving Turbo to that side centre role does somehow surprisingly eventuate and with the expectation Koula will be on the other side

 

[BOZO]

We were more on the ‘pace’ than 10 other teams in 2024. Sure, it’s not exactly the halcyon days of 1968-78, 2005-2014, et al.

However things could be decidedly worse.

The Pace Perspective....

The Pace is not set by the teams below us who are not producing
The pace is set by the teams above us who are winning premierships
and once we get our priorities right . We will start to be going places

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Rueben has had a whole season at centre and his defensive reads have not improved from what I have seen. His defence for the Prime Minster's XIII was no better than it has been in club games. He is a good winger and its time we moved him back to his best position. Similarly we need to move on from Crokes at dummy half for 80 minutes. His service is slow and gets slower when he is fatigued after making 40 tackles in 80 minutes. Next year St George will have Cook and Liddle interchanging and we look like continuing with Crokes for 80 minutes. Jake is a great club man and a great defender but he is ay too slow to be playing lock. It's time for Jake to be playing in the front row rotation where he will be the most effective. If we don't make the changes that need to be made we won't be improving in 2025.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Jeez this thread is heavy going , maybe a poll is better

Garrick is great
Garrick is ****

Or something like that , simples really

 

[madmax]

Jeez this thread is heavy going , maybe a poll is better

Garrick is great
Garrick is ****

Or something like that , simples really

Garrick is in the firing line for the baggers on here until someone comes up mate. I really cannot think of anyone that has signed for us lately that hasn’t been lambasted by some in here coaches & players alike. Not good enough, too old, too slow, another clubs discard, can’t defend, can’t tackle, useless blah blah blah. Yawn zzzzzzzzzz! All these experts probably have never held a rugby league ball in their hands. Experts who think they know the intricacies of coaching…….wonder why they’re not 1st Grade coaches?