Siro & Winterstein

[StuBoot]

1 tackle every 4 mins....
1 run every 10 mins....
Compared to the top backrowers in the game with better defensive teams than ours - they aren't as busy as I'd like.

Hopefully your right Woodsie. Defence wins games as we all know. Broke the Cowboys spirit last week.

True, but with all stats you never get the broader picture.

From memory Winterstein made a few very crucial tackles whether jamming in on a potential line break or desperate goal line defence - they go on the tackle count stats but then so does a third man in flop.

Myles, BJ, Jake and Api did the bulk of the tough stuff in the middle but Frank and Sirro did their share of keeping the house in order.

Both of them seemed to work with a lot more cohesion with their centres too, notably Walker seemed to be more proactive and confident defensively.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Best second rowers make 130-150+ metres a game and look for the ball. If Siro is more of a ball player perhaps he needs be given the opportunity to do what he does best - don't think he will do it as well as gifty but would be happy if we got close! Frankestein just doesnt seem to want the ball enough for mine. A second rower must be right up the top of our priorities for next year... there are a few on the market, Wade Graham would be my number one target. Or Nelson Asofa Solomona!

Storm want Nelson because Harris is leaving, Graham wants to become captain of Sharks.
Next!

 

[Ralphie]

It must have just been me, but I thought both were very good last weekend, particularly Winterstein.

 

[Freagle]

For my two cents, I'd say that Bainbridge looks like more of a mid-third player, so would have him in as a lock or bench player coming on in the last ten of each half to bring energy in the ruck defence. But then I haven't seen him play out wide, so am quite possibly missing something. Comments with actual research cost three cents...

 

[Fluffy]

He plays lock in U20's but did play on the right side in his game last year and ran a few good lines in that game.

 

[Dan]

Winterstein was huge on Saturday, I watched the game again last night and it wasn't his attack but his defense that was amazing. He saved at least 3 tries with cover defense, he really plugs that game out on our left edge he holds in field and covers a lot of ground moving out to Green. So what he lacks in attack he is making up for in defense and holding an important role in keeping it together

 

[HoldenV8]

Winterstein was good on Saturday night, especially his defense, but I think we'll find that if Lussick is back this week as well as Kapow and AFB it'll be Frank who is the one who either drops to the bench (more likely) or out of the 17 altogether.

I can't see Barrett dropping (or being allowed to drop) Sironen. If Frank drops to the bench it'll be either Lane or Billy who drop out.

 

[Woodsie]

Yep. But Winterstein dished up the same defensive effort in the 38 points scored by Souths.

Siro a few more with 33 tackles...

Just as a matter of interest Batty, 12 of those 38 points were scored when we were down to 12 men and the defensive line obviously compromised.

Can the stats you look at tell us how many of the remaining 26 points were scored late in the game when Either Siro or Winterstein or both had been replaced?

 

[ricardo]

Winterstein was good on Saturday night, especially his defense, but I think we'll find that if Lussick is back this week as well as Kapow and AFB it'll be Frank who is the one who either drops to the bench (more likely) or out of the 17 altogether.

I can't see Barrett dropping (or being allowed to drop) Sironen. If Frank drops to the bench it'll be either Lane or Billy who drop out.

I'm actually hoping Marty goes in as prop due to the excellent performance of Frankenstein

 

[double hoops]

Ha Ha I am waiting for someone to correct with the official time he was on....but you got my drift hey, Mind you, that break and inside pass against tiring defence, was all class. Watch it again. I haven't seen a more polished play by Manly for 12 months. I was expected an ill directed pass or go yourself brain explosion TBH....or perhaps the kick for yourself lol

No one comes close to Cliffy. But Green does have an little touch of magic about his inside pass. Walkers try in the roosters trial was off a pass just as sweet, on the other side of the field, thrown the other way, but very very pretty.

 

[Woodsie]

Nah Woodsie. I'd have to watch the game over again.

I was more pointing out the work rate. To dish up 22 tackles, 3 runs and a mistake in a game of footy when your team gets smashed by 38 points .... as a starting backrower isn't busy enough.

But that's just my opinion.

It's a good opinion, and I wouldn't ask you to watch that again. As far as tackles you can only tackle what comes your way .... as far as the number of runs that is low even considering we only had what 40% of possession, but again did the ball come his way? Still couldn't have been looking for it.

 

[Woodsie]

I just want to see him busier is all. For every tackle or run he's not making, someone else is. I just don't see him pulling his weight yet. Hopefully he grows into the new body they've built him but so far if only seen the new muscle burn out his motor early.

Would personally prefer the likes of Kennedy or Bainbridge there as starting backrow as they a workhorses.

Sironen is there for his attack so he stays in my opinion.

Arr, but there is the rub, and we have come back to the beginning.

My initial point was, have we been watching or judging by different criteria to the coach. My observation was that I think they have been told to play a certain defensive pattern locking together the middle with the outside. This was our major problem last year with all the 2nd rate and changing personnel.

It has only been 3 games and patterns take time to entrench, but I think whoever is watching the video sessions is happy with their progress and would obviously like consistency..

I think they may have been told that this is their 1st, 2nd and 3rd top priority and attack will develop.

Must be Happy enough with something to ignore other stats .....

 

[Midnight Rambler]

I'm still willing to give Siro a chance, because I know he can play, wether he returns to his past capabilities is anyone's guess. But other than that offload against the cows, he hasn't done sh1t. 9's form would be great to see. As for winterstein, solid blue collar effort over the weekend, but looking at his physique, he should be running 100+ mtrs, which he hasn't done yet. It's embarrassing as a forward, when your wingers run 100+ mtrs in their sleep, consistently every week.

 

[Woodsie]

Yep. Could be spot on.

Perhaps oppositions are just targeting everyone else in attack... and he doesn't have to make as many tackles.

And when we have the ball they must always avoid his side....

Its early days. Im happy to leave him there if there's improvement. If his involvement is results in the defensive effort we've seen 2/3 weeks so far I'm happy.

When I watched the cowboys games live I remember thinking he wasn't getting involved enough but then after, watching the replay and reviewing the stats it was clear he was on par with Siro. Maybe I'm just biased....

In my opinion hes seen little improvement from the 3 games he played last year where he looked gassed and unable to put in the hard yards.

If you re-read my initial post you will see that I agree with your observations which let me to consider my theory.

He was gassed early and kept being gassed for 70mins in 30 degree head and 80% humidity, and kept making the line. Don't worry, he is fit enough, and as I noted both Siro and Winterstein to my knowledge wouldn't have played 80 mins in the pigs evar. They will both be better for the run.

But both Bainbridge and Lanky Lane will also have been running the same defensive drills and patterns at training and all should be interchangeable. I don't care who our second rowers are if they get the job done.

 

[desreturnoftheking]

without our forwards they were made to defend more. against south Frank did 3 hit ups. we need to get them one on one with the halfbacks there massive boys hit and spin

 

[Woodsie]

I hope your theory is correct because they were the same conditions as everyone else on our team... all of who did more....

I agree with you. Happy to see him in the team if his contribution leads to the same defensive efforts.

Lane to me is an impact bench player. Having that enormous human running at you 10mins before the end of the halves would help break your spirit.
But that's another whole different debate.

Logic and experience tells me I have to be correct.

The guy makes 3 hit-ups and is still in the team .... only possible conclusions are either Baz is retarded or he ticked different boxes

After last year having little shape or structure I believe the first 10 wks of this season will be about shape and structure and consistency.

 

[desreturnoftheking]

Winterstein was good on Saturday night, especially his defense, but I think we'll find that if Lussick is back this week as well as Kapow and AFB it'll be Frank who is the one who either drops to the bench (more likely) or out of the 17 altogether.

I can't see Barrett dropping (or being allowed to drop) Sironen. If Frank drops to the bench it'll be either Lane or Billy who drop out.

what do you think our best pack is?
I'd go with
lussick
api
Lawrence
taupau
Jake

hastings
lane
afb
myles

 

[Supreme Leader]

Hey guys & girls, was at a function in Sydney today (mind you it took me 3.5 hours to get there from Newcastle - no wonder I moved to Newcastle - traffic is appalling in Sydney) but it was suggested by a West tigers management person was that one of the first things they want to do is get Sironen back (this was before the drinks were served btw). Hope they are way off. I like the kid and has potential. Smacks of We don't want you, but well give you an offer to come back. Hope he has had a new leaf of life and wants to stay!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

If he wants to go back, go, although I suspect he is quite content here right now, he's a first grader at Manly and the club has a clear pathway forward.

 

[Fluffy]

what do you think our best pack is?
I'd go with
lussick
api
Lawrence
taupau
Jake

hastings
lane
afb
myles

might have the maroon and white glasses on there but I think playing 1 player short is not our best pack.

Need to add another second rower to start imo, call me strange if you want