Schuster or Foran for 5/8th 2022

[DaveLP]

I rather shoe to 6 then foran I mean foz had a great year but its time to let the shoe do his thing! Fitness? His tackling rate will go down by more then 50% so with that and a good preseason he will be ready!

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Some good judges of the game eg Brad Fittler have suggested that Josh would go pretty well as a centre. Fittler has put that out in the public domain on more than one occasion. So let's assume the current Origin coach is a reasonable judge of a players capacity. With that in mind let's look a bit closer at Fittlers career, stats and the many similarities between himself and Josh. Body height and weight are very similar at the corresponding stage of their careers. Fittler played three years in the centres, before moving into five-eight and occasionally lock. His ability to ball play inside to his fullback and outside to his winger, was one of the reasons he represented Australia as a centre. The same formula could definitely be applied to Josh. Now this whole discussion is predicted on finding a mechanism to get Schuster into five-eight. Most articles on Schuster have him as our long term five-eight. There are very few that have him as a long term backrower. The question to answer is how to get him ready to play five-eight in 2023. Foran will clearly block his way for 2022. Pragmatically, if Schuster finishes 2022 at the same weight and fitness level as he finished 2021, there is no way he starts as five-eight in 2023. Playing him at centre is a potential mechanism to facilitate that fitness level. I'm sure it's not the only solution. However, it worked pretty well for Fittler, and I think he knows a little bit more about player utility and capacity then some of us tryhard numpties on Silvertails.

Sorry man - respect your view and quoting Fittler etc but wont convince me one bit.

 

[Marto1970]

Foz for me just for his game management, kicking, experience Shu in second row will gain more experience next to Foz ,we struggled against the strong defensive side Storm, Panthers, Roosters,South's (towards the end of season) so it comes back to winning the middle earn the right to go wide for Shu to have a bit of room,in the finals Foz was getting the ball with the defence on top of him hard to compete against

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Some good judges of the game eg Brad Fittler have suggested that Josh would go pretty well as a centre. Fittler has put that out in the public domain on more than one occasion. So let's assume the current Origin coach is a reasonable judge of a players capacity. With that in mind let's look a bit closer at Fittlers career, stats and the many similarities between himself and Josh. Body height and weight are very similar at the corresponding stage of their careers. Fittler played three years in the centres, before moving into five-eight and occasionally lock. His ability to ball play inside to his fullback and outside to his winger, was one of the reasons he represented Australia as a centre. The same formula could definitely be applied to Josh. Now this whole discussion is predicated on finding a mechanism to get Schuster into five-eight. Most articles on Schuster have him as our long term five-eight. There are very few that have him as a long term backrower. The question to answer is how to get him ready to play five-eight in 2023. Foran will clearly block his way for 2022. Pragmatically, if Schuster finishes 2022 at the same weight and fitness level as he finished 2021, there is no way he starts as five-eight in 2023. Playing him at centre is a potential mechanism to facilitate that fitness level. I'm sure it's not the only solution. However, it worked pretty well for Fittler, and I think he knows a little bit more about player utility and capacity then some of us tryhard numpties on Silvertails.

One flaw in this Fittler comparison - actually a couple - Fittler was explosive off the mark and had an amazing step - especially off the right. Schu is certainly not explosive nor has a serious line busting step. Fittler's ball skills were good but they certainly were not supreme. Cliffy Lyons' ball skills were supreme. Not saying Schuster is another Cliffy - not yet but think he might end up pretty damn good - way better ball skills than Fittler. Fittler's game was built on his speed off the mark, agility - the ball skills ie the sleight of hand were good - but they were supplementary though to his other skills. Certainly the early Fittler was a much slighter build than the finished Fittler. Schuster is much stockier and certainly not as agile. Not sure Fittler has said Schuster is a Centre or should be a Centre - he has said he could play a few different psoitions - Centre being one and that is based on where he played as a junior...... Now playing Centre successfully and consistently for a long period as opposed to filling in for part of a game or a game or two is very different and much much easier in the juniors than in the NRL. I am sure he could hold the fort out there short term but yes what a waste of a talent and in any case we just dont have another really really good edge backrower to replace him right now who is ready to step in. No way I see Des putting him out there. Everyone needs to take a chill pill until 2023 when he will move to 5/8 if Foran is gone.

 

[Shoe1]

One flaw in this Fittler comparison - actually a couple - Fittler was explosive off the mark and had an amazing step - especially off the right. Schu is certainly not explosive nor has a serious line busting step. Fittler's ball skills were good but they certainly were not supreme. Cliffy Lyons' ball skills were supreme. Not saying Schuster is another Cliffy - not yet but think he might end up pretty damn good - way better ball skills than Fittler. Fittler's game was built on his speed off the mark, agility - the ball skills ie the sleight of hand were good - but they were supplementary though to his other skills. Certainly the early Fittler was a much slighter build than the finished Fittler. Schuster is much stockier and certainly not as agile. Not sure Fittler has said Schuster is a Centre or should be a Centre - he has said he could play a few different psoitions - Centre being one and that is based on where he played as a junior...... Now playing Centre successfully and consistently for a long period as opposed to filling in for part of a game or a game or two is very different and much much easier in the juniors than in the NRL. I am sure he could hold the fort out there short term but yes what a waste of a talent and in any case we just dont have another really really good edge backrower to replace him right now who is ready to step in. No way I see Des putting him out there. Everyone needs to take a chill pill until 2023 when he will move to 5/8 if Foran is gone.

Correct. Fittler was a ball runner first, playmaker second. Schu is the opposite.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Correct. Fittler was a ball runner first, playmaker second. Schu is the opposite.

Exactly @Shoe1

 

[Dion Johnson]

Foz was fantastic this season, a great year performed above expectations.

The flip side is Schuster has immense talent and is a star of the game in waiting, he played extremely well against the Eels in round 11 at 6.

Has more upside than Foz and could be worth a few games at 6 in finding this out.

 

[manlyfan76]

No risk in starting Josh as the six, having Foz ready to step in if Josh is struggling after round six.

 

[Eagles4Life]

One flaw in this Fittler comparison - actually a couple - Fittler was explosive off the mark and had an amazing step - especially off the right. Schu is certainly not explosive nor has a serious line busting step. Fittler's ball skills were good but they certainly were not supreme. Cliffy Lyons' ball skills were supreme. Not saying Schuster is another Cliffy - not yet but think he might end up pretty damn good - way better ball skills than Fittler. Fittler's game was built on his speed off the mark, agility - the ball skills ie the sleight of hand were good - but they were supplementary though to his other skills. Certainly the early Fittler was a much slighter build than the finished Fittler. Schuster is much stockier and certainly not as agile. Not sure Fittler has said Schuster is a Centre or should be a Centre - he has said he could play a few different psoitions - Centre being one and that is based on where he played as a junior...... Now playing Centre successfully and consistently for a long period as opposed to filling in for part of a game or a game or two is very different and much much easier in the juniors than in the NRL. I am sure he could hold the fort out there short term but yes what a waste of a talent and in any case we just dont have another really really good edge backrower to replace him right now who is ready to step in. No way I see Des putting him out there. Everyone needs to take a chill pill until 2023 when he will move to 5/8 if Foran is gone.

Clearly, I don't see Schuster as a long term centre. He has to be developed as our long term five eight. So I agree he is absolutely a short term centre at best. However, I do not believe that playing Josh exclusively as a backrower in 2022 is going to benefit his development as our long term five-eight. There is absolutely no way he plays five-eight for us at the weight and fitness level he finished this season at. Is next season going to be any different? The number that really stands out for Josh in the second half of the 2021 season is tackles. It's obvious that his attack was blunted by his workload in defence. What did we really gain from that? I believe that his attacking brilliance has suffered from the role that he played this year, and his 2021 body shape wasn't helpful either. Some time in the off season working on his speed off the mark and explosiveness as a ball playing centre, would benefit his development as our long term five-eight. He won't be doing that from five-eight, as clearly Foran will be in that position until 2023. I think that Schuster is an above average backrower, but he has the potential to be an outstanding five-eight. Where I differ from some others is that I don't think playing in the backrow will have a positive impact on his development as a five-eight. Conversely playing him at centre, at 10 kgs lighter, could well provide that positive impact. At the very least he would be a hell of a lot fitter, coming into 2023. Playing him outside Foran for a year could also be a massive positive for his development as well. It's just an opinion, as at this stage who really knows what the final squad will look like for 2022. All I know is that I am dreading the offseason. It's going to be a long one.

 

[Ryan]

Schuster's body shape, and his fitness / energy / effort areas are not acceptable in the halves at the moment. He can clock off in the back row from time to time, and you kind of don't notice. He's put on 10-15 k/g's since his debut.

Plus sized 5/8's don't tend to last, and the bigger one's are usually lanky, not overweight.

 

[The Indian]

Lot of people saying Schuster to centres.....In a lot of games centre's rarely touch the ball in attacking situations. We need to get the ball to Schuster more often in attacking situations not less. Des didn't sign Foran to not play him, and he cant play anywhere bar 5/8 so if he's fit Foran will play every time.

To me Schuster will be a ball playing lock given his size and that's where he should be. He will sooner or later fill that role that Jurbo is filling and Schuster will be elite at it. He's born for that role Jake plays getting his hands on the ball a couple of times each set and distributing the ball. Trouble is I'm not sure where that leaves Jake, presumably pushing back up to the front row in more of a grunt role ??.

 

[Shoe1]

Lot of people saying Schuster to centres.....In a lot of games centre's rarely touch the ball in attacking situations. We need to get the ball to Schuster more often in attacking situations not less. Des didn't sign Foran to not play him, and he cant play anywhere bar 5/8 so if he's fit Foran will play every time.

To me Schuster will be a ball playing lock given his size and that's where he should be. He will sooner or later fill that role that Jurbo is filling and Schuster will be elite at it. He's born for that role Jake plays getting his hands on the ball a couple of times each set and distributing the ball. Trouble is I'm not sure where that leaves Jake, presumably pushing back up to the front row in more of a grunt role ??.

You could be right on this.

Another thing that counts against Josh as a centre is that he will be wasted running Parker-style decoy lines all game.

 

[chris_niko]

For mine:
6 schuster
Bacrow of bullemor and olakauatu

The time to blood him for the full time 5/8 position is now. You don't want a special talent like him spending too much time out of position or it will actually halt his development. Plus with bullemoor in the back row we get a more direct forward pack, something we lacked at the crunch end of the season.

Unfortunately I don't like the idea of foran coming off the bench either.

He's an 18 for me

 

[Snake]

We can discuss this all we like but outside of injury, Foran is 1000/1 to miss out on a spot so Schuster can play 6...it's just not the way Des conducts business.

Further, Bullemor played middle for Broncs so the idea that it's a foregone conclusion that he'll take a backrow position are unfounded.

Finally, Schu is definitely going benefit less from playing centre than backrow. Of course, he could handle centre...I've seen him play it before...it's not a question of can he...however, the next best option outside of 6, is to play backrow; why? because he can ball play with more options. At centre, he could pass the winger and that's about it. How that can somehow benefit his development is beyond me. Giving him less options with the ball is a step backwards.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

We can discuss this all we like but outside of injury, Foran is 1000/1 to miss out on a spot so Schuster can play 6...it's just not the way Des conducts business.

Further, Bullemor played middle for Broncs so the idea that it's a foregone conclusion that he'll take a backrow position are unfounded.

Finally, Schu is definitely going benefit less from playing centre than backrow. Of course, he could handle centre...I've seen him play it before...it's not a question of can he...however, the next best option outside of 6, is to play backrow; why? because he can ball play with more options. At centre, he could pass the winger and that's about it. How that can somehow benefit his development is beyond me. Giving him less options with the ball is a step backwards.

Bullemor would need to show he can be an edge backrower - I think he can - he has the agility and power but running the right lines out there is not easy to learn. Not is defending out wider and playing slide defence wider out. It will take him a good 6/12 months to get across all of the issues of playing an edge if in fact that is where Des wants to play him. Bullemore aint playing edge come March 2022 and Schu aint playing 5/8 or centre or anywhere other than second row... unless Foran is injured.

 

[Eagle thru 'n' thru]

Heart says Schuster, head says Foran.
We have Foran for another year so lets use him in the only position he knows. Schuster can be 5/8 if Foz goes down injured. One more year in the 2nd row for Schuster won't do him harm.

 

[Eagles4Life]

We can discuss this all we like but outside of injury, Foran is 1000/1 to miss out on a spot so Schuster can play 6...it's just not the way Des conducts business.

Further, Bullemor played middle for Broncs so the idea that it's a foregone conclusion that he'll take a backrow position are unfounded.

Finally, Schu is definitely going benefit less from playing centre than backrow. Of course, he could handle centre...I've seen him play it before...it's not a question of can he...however, the next best option outside of 6, is to play backrow; why? because he can ball play with more options. At centre, he could pass the winger and that's about it. How that can somehow benefit his development is beyond me. Giving him less options with the ball is a step backwards.

That all sounds pretty logical @Snake but how much ball playing did Schuster actually do as a backrower, once he came back from injury? His season as a ballplaying backrower was a story in two parts. The first part was outstanding, and the second part was pretty bloody ordinary. I think his development went backwards in that time. His only numbers that improved in the second part of the season were tackles and tackle efficiency. To me that is a far from ideal use of his natural talent as a ball player. If that continues next year I fail to see how that assists his future development as our long term five eight. Or are we planning on using him as a backrower only in the future? If so how do we get the best out of our forwards, when we simultaneously have three ball playing forwards on the field at the same time ie Jake, Josh, Walker?

 

[Snake]

That all sounds pretty logical @Snake but how much ball playing did Schuster actually do as a backrower, once he came back from injury? His season as a ballplaying backrower was a story in two parts. The first part was outstanding, and the second part was pretty bloody ordinary. I think his development went backwards in that time. His only numbers that improved in the second part of the season were tackles and tackle efficiency. To me that is a far from ideal use of his natural talent as a ball player. If that continues next year I fail to see how that assists his future development as our long term five eight. Or are we planning on using him as a backrower only in the future? If so how do we get the best out of our forwards, when we simultaneously have three ball playing forwards on the field at the same time ie Jake, Josh, Walker?

What’s the lesser of two evils if the long term goal is to play him at 6?

Have him learn back row for a season, only to then ask him to learn centre the following year?

Or...

Let him grow into the position he has already received six months experience in?

It’s an easy option. He is a rookie. He was never going to carve up for the duration of a long season...it was always going to be a case of a long gruelling season where form dips...

I can’t see even a small positive in asking him to now play centre...I reckon it’s 1000/1 that Des asks him to learn a new position out of blue because it’s stuffing the kid around. It’s back row for good or back row and then 6. Not back row, centre, 6.

 

[Eagles4Life]

What’s the lesser of two evils if the long term goal is to play him at 6?

Have him learn back row for a season, only to then ask him to learn centre the following year?

Or...

Let him grow into the position he has already received six months experience in?

It’s an easy option. He is a rookie. He was never going to carve up for the duration of a long season...it was always going to be a case of a long gruelling season where form dips...

I can’t see even a small positive in asking him to now play centre...I reckon it’s 1000/1 that Des asks him to learn a new position out of blue because it’s stuffing the kid around. It’s back row for good or back row and then 6. Not back row, centre, 6.

Fair enough @Snake I just hope that Josh's role next season will enable him to achieve his potential as a future Manly great. Whatever number he is wearing on his back.

 

[QueefRichards]

Foran will be 5/8 I just hope they manage Schusters development properly. Can easily have second year syndrome otherwise