Rugby Australia: A Cautionary Tale

[BOZO]

Be happy feathered friends and always remember to look on the bright side of life .....

 

[eaglebuzz]

No they aren't, they support the idea of people's fear of the unknown.
I would consider myself an expert on several subjects; from beer to skiing and geography. But if you are asking my profession, then I work on data and software solutions for a range of treatment and manufacturing processes.

That's one way of interpreting it. I don't think that explanation fits the overall data of existence as well as theism does, but at this point I'm pretty happy to agree to disagree. I'm here to talk about the Sea Eagles, I only let myself get drawn on this conversation because I was amused by the hypocrisy of people accusing Folau of being hateful whilst simultaneously tolerating hateful things being said about religious people.

I was just wanting to know what that cryptic expertise comment was referring to.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

T

That's one way of interpreting it. I don't think that explanation fits the overall data of existence as well as theism does, but at this point I'm pretty happy to agree to disagree. I'm here to talk about the Sea Eagles, I only let myself get drawn on this conversation because I was amused by the hypocrisy of people accusing Folau of being hateful whilst simultaneously tolerating hateful things being said about religious people.

I was just wanting to know what that cryptic expertise comment was referring to.

Then you must also appreciate the irony/hypocrisy in those saying that Folau was vilified based on his religion after he vilified others by using his religion.

 

[Kevinward777]

There's too much to say to answer that, that it's not really possible to do so in a satisfactory way on here. But in brief:

Arguments for general theism:
- There is something rather than nothing, and yet that "something" has not existed eternally, meaning that it came into existence, and yet the universe is an impersonal and materially contingent reality so it is an unsatisfactory explanation for its own existence.
- The laws of physics and chemistry are regular and predictable, yet there is no obvious reason why they should be.
- The laws of physics just happen to exist within perfect ranges for supporting life (the probability that the universe should be just one big hydrogen cloud or one massive black hole is incomprehensibly high, the odds that even elements should exist are minuscule).
- Even though there are approximately 10^60 planets in the universe, the odds that any single planet could support life, when multiplied by the number of planets in the universe, are still vanishingly small.
- Biological molecules are the most complex entities in the universe and yet they all somehow managed to develop together, with increasing, mutually supportive quantum leaps in complexity, to be able to not only encode information, but also self-replicate, sanitise information errors, build proteins based on those DNA templates, and do so within protective casings, all in conditions that are incredibly hostile to life.
- Human beings have the ability to appreciate truth, beauty, and goodness on a level that most would describe as spiritual, that does not have a satisfactory explanation in pure biological terms.
- Human beings across all of history have believed in a God or gods, and that propensity towards belief in higher powers at the very least requires a reasonable explanation.
- Human societies function best when they are religious, and fall apart when they arent.
- We have never been more materially prosperous than we are right now, and yet as we abandon religion our society is getting less happy.

Arguments for Judeo-Christian theism:
- The Bible was written across an approximately 1500 year period by several different authors and yet the central theological themes are unchanged, in fact they develop and enrich as the revelation unfolds. Prophecies from books written from the period of 1200 BC to 300 BC are intricately fulfilled in the life of Jesus.
- The above point would be most adequately explained by Jesus being a complete work of fiction, but this does not gel with the historical evidence. There is ample evidence that Jesus was not only a real person, living in a real place, at a real time, but the evidence of the mark that he made on the people around him is observable in the historical record.
- The earliest followers of Jesus were best placed to know if it was a lie, and yet they lived lives of poverty and persecution to share their faith.
- The best explanation for the fact that Christianity exists at all is that it is true, if it is false the key people (plural - as opposed to say Mohammed who was just one guy) would have had no incentive to continue and every incentive to abandon it.
- Christianity's rise has coincided with remarkable good fortune across history, both in how the religion itself survived and spread but also the prosperity it brought with it to the places where it took root.
- Those who read the Bible with an open heart have experiences unlike the reading of any other book.
- The teachings of Christianity make sense of the human condition and following the moral code of the Bible makes individuals and communities better places.

There's literally a whole library worth to say on this issue, and each of the points that I have made above is a book in its own right... but there's a start.

Amen! Sitting here with my wife, and just read this now. We were having a conversation with someone yesterday (very briefly) on this very subject. She has asked me to copy this to pass on if you don’t mind.

 

[eaglebuzz]

Amen! Sitting here with my wife, and just read this now. We were having a conversation with someone yesterday (very briefly) on this very subject. She has asked me to copy this to pass on if you don’t mind.

By all means, there are far better sources on this than my back of the envelope forum responses but if it's helpful go for it.

 

[Kevinward777]

I DON'T KNOW!!!!
Does that fact make me less right than you?

No, not at all... but you seem to be very certain of your position and I was just interested in finding out what it is you believe.

What about the “Big Bang” which is supposed to have occurred 13 odd billion years ago? Are you as passionately opposed to their faith as you are to religion/Judeo-Christianity?

 

[eaglebuzz]

T

Then you must also appreciate the irony/hypocrisy in those saying that Folau was vilified based on his religion after he vilified others by using his religion.

I've got no beef with "vilification". I just want to live in a society where people's first instinct is to solve disagreements by discussing them, rather than commercial boycotts and firing etc.

 

[BOZO]

Freedom of speech should be just that .

Toughen up people . We are stronger than that




If Words Hurt, It's Because You Let Them


What It Means
This is basically a Stoic version of "sticks and stones" or "haters gonna hate". What people say or do cannot harm you unless you let it. You choose to be offended, hurt, embarrassed, angered, or defensive. If you decide what was said or done means nothing to you, you feel nothing, and are thus unchanged.

Random people in your world have no power over your mind and emotions. Those things are in your control, or at least they should be. If some stranger says something uncouth or does something with the intention of putting you down, they aren't doing anything to you at all.

They are only feeding into their own anger and lack of control in their own lives. Don't be like them. Let their words and actions bounce off. Choose to not be affected by other people and you won't be.

Yes, people can harm us physically, and those close to us can abuse us mentally. Those things are out of your control and must be dealt with as they come. But for everything else - the petty remarks, the insults, the lies, the attacks on our character - you are protected if you choose to be.

As Aurelius puts it, "That which does not make a man worse than he was, also does not make his life worse..." Most of the time, there's no reason someone else's negative words or actions should have any effect on you at all.

 

[Kevinward777]

....and you will get similar arguments from Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hidu etc, etc. Yet there is no conclusive evidence or argument that makes people choose one over the other - it is all simply down to your birth area and social circle.
As for the idea of general theism - I could easily create any number of solutions to the problem posed - this is all just a story, we are heads in jars somewhere, it's a computer simulation, the Great Green Arkleseizure etc.
But why would I? It doesn't give me any greater insight into my life or the mysteries of the universe it just lets me avoid saying that I don't know the answer to something. But hey, I'm happy to say that (even when I'm an expert on the field) are you?

By all means, there are far better sources on this than my back of the envelope forum responses but if it's helpful go for it.

Perhaps so, but it just so happens what you have posted was the very subject my wife was speaking to her cousin about, and you have condensed it down very nicely. Thanks.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Amen! Sitting here with my wife, and just read this now. We were having a conversation with someone yesterday (very briefly) on this very subject. She has asked me to copy this to pass on if you don’t mind.

Perhaps you and your wife should discuss why so many others choose not to believe in a god or why they choose a different god. Supporting your own beliefs with others that suit your own is unlikely to bring you any new insight

No, not at all... but you seem to be very certain of your position and I was just interested in finding out what it is you believe.

What about the “Big Bang” which is supposed to have occurred 13 odd billion years ago? Are you as passionately opposed to their faith as you are to religion/Judeo-Christianity?

I am not opposed to peoples faith, people are entitled to belief what they wish. My opposition is directed at those who chose to judge others based on that belief and without the support of any real evidence to support their claim that they are more right than others.
Yes, I support the theory of the Big Bang based on the current evidence - which can be recreated in labs and observed in the night sky and no religious belief can be supported in that way.

I've got no beef with "vilification". I just want to live in a society where people's first instinct is to solve disagreements by discussing them, rather than commercial boycotts and firing etc.

But it was discussed by an employer and their employee and he refused to remove the post and I think it would be safe to assume the conversation was more like - you need to remove this it's offensive, goes against our company policy and may cause harm to the wider community. Rather than; Remove it or else.

 

[Kevinward777]

Perhaps you and your wife should discuss why so many others choose not to believe in a god or why they choose a different god. Supporting your own beliefs with others that suit your own is unlikely to bring you any new insight


I am not opposed to peoples faith, people are entitled to belief what they wish. My opposition is directed at those who chose to judge others based on that belief and without the support of any real evidence to support their claim that they are more right than others.
Yes, I support the theory of the Big Bang based on the current evidence - which can be recreated in labs and observed in the night sky and no religious belief can be supported in that way.


But it was discussed by an employer and their employee and he refused to remove the post and I think it would be safe to assume the conversation was more like - you need to remove this it's offensive, goes against our company policy and may cause harm to the wider community. Rather than; Remove it or else.

You’re opposed to those who judge others with differing beliefs you claim. So you yourself don’t judge? Is that what you’re implying. Scientists judge people who don’t believe in their gospels all the time do they not? What about the LGBT community? Do they judge? Do they mock, laugh and ridicule Christians? Disrespect Christians even? Mmmm...

Funnily enough... the bible instructs believers not to judge. Though we all fall short of the standard.

And as far as my wife and I are concerned, what do you know of us? You judge the extent of our verbal interaction with others on a two minute conversation she had with her cousin yesterday afternoon.

 

[eaglebuzz]

But it was discussed by an employer and their employee and he refused to remove the post and I think it would be safe to assume the conversation was more like - you need to remove this it's offensive, goes against our company policy and may cause harm to the wider community. Rather than; Remove it or else.

As I said early on in this thread, their best course of action was to just publicly distance themselves from his personal posts by stating publicly and unambiguously that his views are his own and not those of RA. If they had done that, only a minority of vicious far left activists would have complained publicly, and whilst that would have resulted in a short term spike in bad PR, companies who stare that down tend to do better in the long term (e.g. Chick-fil-A in the USA). Instead they have taken it upon themselves to police his social media use, and whether or not it does constitute a legitimate breach of contract is something I'll sit back and let the courts decide.

I think most people would rather just live and let live when it comes to freedom of speech. For those who don't believe in hell, saying that someone will go there is really not that offensive, and most of those who say they are offended are doing so for political reasons. I feel for the minority of young kids who are painfully coming to terms with their sexuality, but I know from 15+ years working with teenagers that what really makes the difference there is safe and supportive relationships, not what athletes are posting on social media.

 

[Kevinward777]

Perhaps you and your wife should discuss why so many others choose not to believe in a god or why they choose a different god. Supporting your own beliefs with others that suit your own is unlikely to bring you any new insight


I am not opposed to peoples faith, people are entitled to belief what they wish. My opposition is directed at those who chose to judge others based on that belief and without the support of any real evidence to support their claim that they are more right than others.
Yes, I support the theory of the Big Bang based on the current evidence - which can be recreated in labs and observed in the night sky and no religious belief can be supported in that way.


But it was discussed by an employer and their employee and he refused to remove the post and I think it would be safe to assume the conversation was more like - you need to remove this it's offensive, goes against our company policy and may cause harm to the wider community. Rather than; Remove it or else.

Have you tested the evidence for the Big Bang in a laboratory? I dare say you probably take on faith after learning it at school, or reading about it in a book, or watching Neil De Grasse Tyson. You claim it can be proven that the Big Bang occurred 13 billion years ago in a lab. How do I conduct such a test?

 

[MuzztheEagle]

You’re opposed to those who judge others with differing beliefs you claim. So you yourself don’t judge? Is that what you’re implying. Scientists judge people who don’t believes in their gospels all the time do they not? What about the LGBT community? Do they judge? Do they mock, laugh and ridicule Christians? Disrespect Christians even? Mmmm...

Funnily enough... the bible instructs believers not to judge. Though we all fall short of the standard.

And as far as my wife and I are concerned, what do you know of us? You judge the extent of our verbal interaction with others on a two minute conversation she had with her cousin yesterday afternoon.

I judge things on evidence and if I make a claim that is what I use to support it. In regard to you, it is clear that you thank and support all posts on here that support your beliefs while ignoring questions which are to hard or inconvenient to answer. And I will reference these posts as evidence if asked. Can Folau reference evidence to support his claim that homosexuals will go to hell or just stories and opinions?

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Have you tested the evidence for the Big Bang in a laboratory? I dare say you probably take on faith after learning it at school, or reading about it in a book, or watching Neil De Grasse Tyson. You claim it can be proven that the Big Bang occurred 13 billion years ago in a lab. How do I conduct such a test?

I spent a year studying astrophysics at ANU, happy to send transcripts if you want proof

 

[BOZO]

I judge things on evidence and if I make a claim that is what I use to support it. In regard to you, it is clear that you thank and support all posts on here that support your beliefs while ignoring questions which are to hard or inconvenient to answer. And I will reference these posts as evidence if asked. Can Folau reference evidence to support his claim that homosexuals will go to hell or just stories and opinions?

Ok so if Folau has no evidence that support his claims not only on homosexuals but on heterosexuals then why is every one so paranoid and offended on what he says .
That is what freedom of speech should be , Just that . If we dont beileve what some one says then we should not get offended

 

[BOZO]

I spent a year studying astrophysics at ANU, happy to send transcripts if you want proof

Nothing so far proves, proves there is no God

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Nothing so far proves, proves there is no God

No one has disproved that I'm god either. I guess I must be god!!!

 

[Kevinward777]

I judge things on evidence and if I make a claim that is what I use to support it. In regard to you, it is clear that you thank and support all posts on here that support your beliefs while ignoring questions which are to hard or inconvenient to answer. And I will reference these posts as evidence if asked. Can Folau reference evidence to support his claim that homosexuals will go to hell or just stories and opinions?

Yes, please reference the questions I have failed to respond to.

 

[BOZO]

No one has disproved that I'm god either. I guess I must be god!!!

You probably are a goddess as you sound like a good sort on here and I mean this in a good way .

You are right, no one can totally disprove any belief and it all goes down to the individual putting their faith some where

All of us have faith in something