Captain Moondog
Absolute Superstar
I might come back as a dancing wizard
omnipotent beings discussion
- Thread starter mozgrame
- Start date
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Guys as usual some have interpreted in a specific manner, when I was discussing issues in a general sense.
I have no idea if there is an intelligent intent in how the Universe exists. I'm saying, if you understand anything of the complexity of the elements that make up the Universe, how just a slight change in the energy contained in a proton, would result in life never existing, at least not as how we understand it. If you understand that then you will realise just how unlikely the Universe as it is occurred.
Some in science suggest its a quadrillions to one likelihood. However having said that, there is absolutely no proof that an intelligent entity doesn't exist. But then, there is absolutely not proof that it does. To dismiss either is illogical.
Probably we small creatures are nothing more than a link in a chain. We live to procreate and then we die. Life is the same. But the complexity of life on Earth increases, just as the complexity of the Universe is becoming more complex. The opposite side of the coin of entropy.
Its all nicely explained in this article below regarding how amazingly precise the fundamentals of the Universe are. Its even suggested that unless there are an infinite number of universes in what's called the Multiverse, a theoretical concept suggesting an infinite number of alternative variations, then we are just a very rare and fortunate one off indeed. To create such a scenario is hugely unlikely. That is why I suggested what I did to my enthusiastic followers who responded. Science not belief,
lithub.com
I have no idea if there is an intelligent intent in how the Universe exists. I'm saying, if you understand anything of the complexity of the elements that make up the Universe, how just a slight change in the energy contained in a proton, would result in life never existing, at least not as how we understand it. If you understand that then you will realise just how unlikely the Universe as it is occurred.
Some in science suggest its a quadrillions to one likelihood. However having said that, there is absolutely no proof that an intelligent entity doesn't exist. But then, there is absolutely not proof that it does. To dismiss either is illogical.
Probably we small creatures are nothing more than a link in a chain. We live to procreate and then we die. Life is the same. But the complexity of life on Earth increases, just as the complexity of the Universe is becoming more complex. The opposite side of the coin of entropy.
Its all nicely explained in this article below regarding how amazingly precise the fundamentals of the Universe are. Its even suggested that unless there are an infinite number of universes in what's called the Multiverse, a theoretical concept suggesting an infinite number of alternative variations, then we are just a very rare and fortunate one off indeed. To create such a scenario is hugely unlikely. That is why I suggested what I did to my enthusiastic followers who responded. Science not belief,
It Is Highly Unlikely That Any of This Exists: On the Origins of the Universe
1. Pythagoras called it “the All.” When it came to be, it already contained all that was and all that will be, all the matter and all the energy, all the stars and planets and galaxies, the budding…
Yeah nah ... it's like saying that there is a plan for the creatures living in the tidal zones ... no plan .. if we didn't have a moon and the tides didn't exist the conversation wouldn't exist .. different life forms would simply have evolved .. and we would then be saying there must have been a plan for them .. if our atmosphere and gravity was different, different life would have evolved and we would be saying there must have been a plan for them ..
The complexity of life is no mystery to people who understand big numbers ... when you consider that only a small % of difference in DNA can give you a chimp and a human ..
You mean you're not one ???
Interesting discussion Bearfax, here's my comments in the spirit of inquiry!
And once we accept the actual physical existence of ourselves and the universe, what does it solve to propose an intelligent design by a creator? It solves nothing, because all it does is beg the next question: what created the creator? And what created the creator of the creator? And ad infinitum.
The most devilish ‘proof’ for me concerns the postulation of a spirit god who operates outside the laws of physics. Cause and effect. This god created the physical world, and us, but as we know from the title of this thread, he (yes traditionally a male!) is omnipotent and can continue to interact and interfere in the physical world ‘at will’. But how could such a god, or indeed anything that was not itself a part of the physical universe and itself subject to the laws of physics, interact with the physical world without the total destruction of causality and apocalyptic consequence to the physical world?
By the way, I read the interesting article you linked – he too concludes none of our universe could ever have been intended!
And yet here it is!
Your conclusion is false! Surely it is perfectly logical to proceed on the basis of overwhelming probability, despite absence of proof. At the most basic level consider the idealist conundrum of Descartes, who stated we cannot be sure of anything other than our own consciousness. We, and the entire world and universe, may be nothing more than a thought in a test tube. Do you say because this cannot be proved or disproved that it is illogical to dismiss the possibility the real world doesn’t exist? I suggest the opposite!
And once we accept the actual physical existence of ourselves and the universe, what does it solve to propose an intelligent design by a creator? It solves nothing, because all it does is beg the next question: what created the creator? And what created the creator of the creator? And ad infinitum.
The most devilish ‘proof’ for me concerns the postulation of a spirit god who operates outside the laws of physics. Cause and effect. This god created the physical world, and us, but as we know from the title of this thread, he (yes traditionally a male!) is omnipotent and can continue to interact and interfere in the physical world ‘at will’. But how could such a god, or indeed anything that was not itself a part of the physical universe and itself subject to the laws of physics, interact with the physical world without the total destruction of causality and apocalyptic consequence to the physical world?
By the way, I read the interesting article you linked – he too concludes none of our universe could ever have been intended!
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Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Woodsie, I suspect you accept that things are as they are because you live in it and you BELIEVE, it is as it should be. Belief is not proof.
I argue with others in another site for example, who are atheists and others who are theists. Both come from the point of view of belief. Neither can prove their position. It is merely a state of perspective.
I start from a position of a question. I try as best I can not to allow preconceived ideas, biases to interfere with what I research (impossible really but to a degree its achievable). It relies on being prepared to admit that what you accept may be and often is incorrect.
Allow the evidence to lead you even if its counter intuitive or against everything you have previously accepted. I come to accept five elements that affect how I think, which I've already mentioned. Those factors affect how I interpret information. Doesn't make it right, just right for me at this particular time.
I don't have the answers but I'm not going to allow myself to believe I do. Humans have done that since the birth of Homo sapiens. I can only know of the information I receive, but I also know that is just how I see it, and the information is always limited. Others will see it differently and none of us are truly right.
My previous jobs required careful research and dispassionate assessments. I tried as best to live up to that standard, but in the end I am bounded by what has made me who I am. So I try to accept the words of Dr Suzuki, that is to question everything, and that includes questioning myself and what I accept continuously. We have no ultimate truths, only perspectives and its a continuous search examining options.
What you say is 100% correct when discussing matters non physical .. but hold no place when discussing whether the apple dropped will hit the ground .. we live in a world that has absolute truths and physical limitations ..
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Woodsie its very fortunate that you don't know what I extrapolate from the information I have gained over the years. No question you would be seriously disturbed by it. I suspect we think very differently but then vive la difference.
I wont even try to show I suspect it is impossible to know ultimate truths. We are an animal barely out of the caves and assume we understand the meaning of it all. Do you really think that because we are blessed to be born in a certain society raised to a particular creed as seen from a very parochial perspective as a creature genetically stamped to act by a certain set of behaviours and conditioned to act and believe in a certain set of standards from our cultural upbringing that we have been blessed in the one 'right' way of thinking and living.
As I see it, we are merely at the beginning my friend of a journey, which in fact we are little more at present, baby's looking up at spinning mobiles, only beginning to understand what it all means. I read science journals weekly and an astronomy magazine monthly over the past 40 years, and every year what we think we know is either modified or thrown out. We are here to procreate, no different to a cicada living for a few weeks to lay the next set of eggs for seven years hence. The only difference seems to be, we have a sense of time, before and after. Maybe in a million years if humanity develops, we just may begin to understand the reality of what we perceive.
Maybe your timing is a bit out .. employment prospects may be diminishing ..
There is nothing more comforting than a beautiful woman in a mans arms feathered friend
And man can not live on bread alone !
manlyfan76
There is no A.I. Just better computers
Damn science messing with religion again:
www.abc.net.au
Some parts from the article
"It seems that the conceptual path of least resistance for us is to think in terms of whodunnit as opposed to what are the mechanisms by which this came about," he says.
Professor Barrett, a former head of the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project at Oxford University, says God concepts and ancestor spirits therefore make sense to us because they fit neatly into that "cognitive gap".
"We quickly figure out from early childhood that humans won't do the job for a lot of these whodunnit problems, and so we seem to find something a little bit bigger and mightier, more knowledgeable and more powerful than human beings, much more satisfying," he says.
The language of traditional religion is as steeped in hierarchy as it is in history.
According to most doctrines, God is the shepherd – and we the flock. Humans are controlled from the heavens by the deity or deities we serve.
But advances in neuroscience and psychology present a very different story, one in which the human brain is hardwired for spiritual thought and where religious beliefs and practices come and go over time, depending on our real-world needs and fears.
It could help explain many of the fundamental shifts occurring in religious observance and belief, from the return of European paganism to a growing interest in individualistic forms of spirituality."
More people are ticking the 'no religion' box but these experts say it's not for the reason you think
Don't be too quick to declare the death of religion, these experts argue. They say people aren't becoming less religious, but rather more are opting to craft their own form of religious belief.
www.abc.net.au
Some parts from the article
All in the mind
"According to psychologist Justin Barrett, spiritual belief evolved because it fulfills a particular human need, and people are "hyper-sensitive" to the idea of human-like agency when looking for meaning and purpose in the world."It seems that the conceptual path of least resistance for us is to think in terms of whodunnit as opposed to what are the mechanisms by which this came about," he says.
Professor Barrett, a former head of the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project at Oxford University, says God concepts and ancestor spirits therefore make sense to us because they fit neatly into that "cognitive gap".
"We quickly figure out from early childhood that humans won't do the job for a lot of these whodunnit problems, and so we seem to find something a little bit bigger and mightier, more knowledgeable and more powerful than human beings, much more satisfying," he says.
The language of traditional religion is as steeped in hierarchy as it is in history.
According to most doctrines, God is the shepherd – and we the flock. Humans are controlled from the heavens by the deity or deities we serve.
But advances in neuroscience and psychology present a very different story, one in which the human brain is hardwired for spiritual thought and where religious beliefs and practices come and go over time, depending on our real-world needs and fears.
It could help explain many of the fundamental shifts occurring in religious observance and belief, from the return of European paganism to a growing interest in individualistic forms of spirituality."
Kevinward777
First Grader
Romans 1 16-22
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.
manlyfan76
There is no A.I. Just better computers
No wonder people are turning away from christianity.
Captain Moondog
Absolute Superstar
I remember when I came out to Australia. The old man was in jail in England and Mum wanted to leave Ireland before he got out. We went to Australia house in Dublin and we got the ten pound deal. We weren't rolling in money but the local clergyman, a bloke called Kerry Waterstone said he'd sell our stuff and send us the money. He did ok out of it apparently. He went to America I heard. His youngest son was my best friend.
I've got nothing against omnipotent beings but I can't stand some of the blood suckers that feed off them.
I've got nothing against omnipotent beings but I can't stand some of the blood suckers that feed off them.
Kevinward777
First Grader
2 Peter 2:1-3
English Standard Version
False Prophets and Teachers
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Kevinward777
First Grader
As Paul wrote the Thessalonians informing them of the falling away to come, he details the coming apostasy in other passages. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;” 2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
Scoffers will note, correctly, that these things have happened since the beginning of time. I am also sure that Timothy must have experienced these problems with people in his lifetime — so what makes the difference? Paul emphasizes here that these things happen “in the latter times.”
That they will increase to such high proportions where most will hate the church. People will continue to leave the faith in droves.
Captain Moondog
Absolute Superstar
Hard to differentiate I suppose. I've always believed everybody has an inherent sense of right and wrong. You can blame your teachers but in the end it comes down to you........I've learnt to forgive as I've aged.
Captain Moondog
Absolute Superstar
@Kevinward777 Surely the church and faith are mutually exclusive , Peter 2:1-3. I'm not trying to be smart, just interested in your interpretation.
Captain Moondog
Absolute Superstar
Here's part of a speech given by Oliver Wendell Holmes Senior (an early petrol sniffer) on 23 June 1870 which I found interesting....
"I once inhaled a pretty full dose of ether, with the determination to put on record, at the earliest moment of regaining consciousness, the thought I should find uppermost in my mind. The mighty music of the triumphal march into nothingness reverberated through my brain, and filled me with a sense of infinite possibilities, which made me an archangel for the moment. The veil of eternity was lifted. The one great truth which underlies all human experience, and is the key to all the mysteries that philosophy has sought in vain to solve, flashed upon me in a sudden revelation. Henceforth all was clear: a few words had lifted my intelligence to the level of the knowledge of the cherubim. As my natural condition returned, I remembered my resolution; and, staggering to my desk, I wrote, in ill-shaped, straggling characters, the all-embracing truth still glimmering in my consciousness. The words were these (children may smile; the wise will ponder): “A strong smell of turpentine prevails throughout.”
"I once inhaled a pretty full dose of ether, with the determination to put on record, at the earliest moment of regaining consciousness, the thought I should find uppermost in my mind. The mighty music of the triumphal march into nothingness reverberated through my brain, and filled me with a sense of infinite possibilities, which made me an archangel for the moment. The veil of eternity was lifted. The one great truth which underlies all human experience, and is the key to all the mysteries that philosophy has sought in vain to solve, flashed upon me in a sudden revelation. Henceforth all was clear: a few words had lifted my intelligence to the level of the knowledge of the cherubim. As my natural condition returned, I remembered my resolution; and, staggering to my desk, I wrote, in ill-shaped, straggling characters, the all-embracing truth still glimmering in my consciousness. The words were these (children may smile; the wise will ponder): “A strong smell of turpentine prevails throughout.”
Honestly I don’t have an issue with anyone who believes in the sky fairy and think this completes their lives for whatever reason.
My own wife’s mother died of lung cancer having never had a ciggie in her life and I’ve never seen anyone so at peace towards the end of her life.
She was a devout , and I do mean devout, Catholic who went to church about 3-4 times a week.
She asked me when I asked Mrs MFB’s parents for permission to marry her ( yes you did that in the 70’s) and she asked me if I’d become a Catholic.
“ **** no “ I said and if that’s a requirement for permission the deals off the table.
Well didn’t that cause some issues at the time.
Grant you , different times , but someone else pushing their religious beliefs on you is in my opinion a low act.
My own wife’s mother died of lung cancer having never had a ciggie in her life and I’ve never seen anyone so at peace towards the end of her life.
She was a devout , and I do mean devout, Catholic who went to church about 3-4 times a week.
She asked me when I asked Mrs MFB’s parents for permission to marry her ( yes you did that in the 70’s) and she asked me if I’d become a Catholic.
“ **** no “ I said and if that’s a requirement for permission the deals off the table.
Well didn’t that cause some issues at the time.
Grant you , different times , but someone else pushing their religious beliefs on you is in my opinion a low act.
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