Oi - sitting on da fence is indefensible

[LeonardCohen]

I think we have general problems with our pack, on both sides of the ball. Our yardage sets are fairly underwhelming (this is partly on the back 5 too) and Croker doesn't bring his teammates onto the ball in ways that help us forward. That prevents us from really fatiguing the opposition, who then have plenty of energy to run through us. Which brings me to defence. The pack is simply too slow. Penrith have tons of leg speed in their pack so it should come as no surprise that they're the benchmark. Brisbane had a terrible year because the players weren't hungry, but they too have plenty of leg speed and were only a choke away from winning a competition last year.

Speed is king in the NRL right now due to the current interpretation of the rules. Sadly, I think we're stuck with a pretty sluggish pack and I am concerned. Our best hope is the NRL slows the game down again, due to excessive injuries etc. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Waz13]

I think we have general problems with our pack, on both sides of the ball. Our yardage sets are fairly underwhelming (this is partly on the back 5 too) and Croker doesn't bring his teammates onto the ball in ways that help us forward. That prevents us from really fatiguing the opposition, who then have plenty of energy to run through us. Which brings me to defence. The pack is simply too slow. Penrith have tons of leg speed in their pack so it should come as no surprise that they're the benchmark. Brisbane had a terrible year because the players weren't hungry, but they too have plenty of leg speed and were only a choke away from winning a competition last year.

Speed is king in the NRL right now due to the current interpretation of the rules. Sadly, I think we're stuck with a pretty sluggish pack and I am concerned. Our best hope is the NRL slows the game down again, due to excessive injuries etc. I won't hold my breath.

Nrl is touch footy now, it really is. Nrl are doing nothing to remotely slow the game and won’t. In fact they will try and speed it up if they can. Refs completely turn a blind eye to the play the ball. Play the balls are basically touch footy now, ball straight down.

Sadly this current product is not what I grew up loving. And now manly are out, I’ll prob not watch another game.

 

[manly al]

Nrl is touch footy now, it really is. Nrl are doing nothing to remotely slow the game and won’t. In fact they will try and speed it up if they can. Refs completely turn a blind eye to the play the ball. Play the balls are basically touch footy now, ball straight down.

Sadly this current product is not what I grew up loving. And now manly are out, I’ll prob not watch another game.

Bit of a balance to get that more entertaining type and faster mode of footy that the general public seem more to expect or prefer [and let "s face it , the broadcasters as well ] in recent times and in relation to some more controlled and less spontaneous type play .
Still a place for that too but the trend seems almost reversable now and also on balance suits the present make up of most of the Manly squad , particularly with longer range tries
Just also requires or means a fair bit more mobility and agility in defensive capability and that is where and has already been fairly widely canvassed , a bit of deficiency in the Manly set up right now

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Probably not relevant as the game has changed a fair bit of course, but just by the by ...

In 2006 Manly ranked 8th in defence and had 6th best points differential.

In 2007 they improved to 2nd in defence and 2nd in points differential. Natural improvement from another year playing together, plus key additions ... Jamie Lyon and Matt Ballin

 

[bob dylan]

Defence

Our Achilles heel.

Number 1 priority to fix

I dont think it is the players, its the structures.

You wont see better defenders any where than Jake, Croker and Haumole is a master of the big hit plus his all round defence is great. I think we have some outstanding defenders acroos the park.

We need to be better when under pressure, both in the middle and on the edges. We can see what the good sides do, why dont our coaches coach it.

Conceding 22.5 points a game isnt bad but we need to get it down to 20 or less.

Maybe a new defensive coach would help.

 

[LeonardCohen]

I dont think it is the players, its the structures.

You wont see better defenders any where than Jake, Croker and Haumole is a master of the big hit plus his all round defence is great. I think we have some outstanding defenders acroos the park.

We need to be better when under pressure, both in the middle and on the edges. We can see what the good sides do, why dont our coaches coach it.

Conceding 22.5 points a game isnt bad but we need to get it down to 20 or less.

Maybe a new defensive coach would help.

Jake T is a great defender when he can be square at marker and/or get back onside in time to push off the line on the next ruck. As it stands, he either gives away a penalty or a quick play-the-ball because he defends on the back foot. So yes, his defensive technique is fantastic but his lack of athleticism is starting to become a pretty big defensive issue IMO.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Jake T is a great defender when he can be square at marker and/or get back onside in time to push off the line on the next ruck. As it stands, he either gives away a penalty or a quick play-the-ball because he defends on the back foot. So yes, his defensive technique is fantastic but his lack of athleticism is starting to become a pretty big defensive issue IMO.

Solution? Fewer minutes as a prop?
Or do we just need to improve the wrestle? we either give up a speedy play the ball, and Jake feels he has to make every tackle because our line often is not set ... or else we wrestle clumsily and give up a penalty or 6 again. Feels like it anyway.

 

[double hoops]

Our new bloke Steve Murphy seems to be more noted as an attack coach when at the eels from what I could find. He has been a NRL assistant for something like 18 years or so , so you'd think he'd be pretty comfortable with either portfolio.

 

[LittleSnake]

We won the ruck in a few scattered games this year and it was something that's been missing for what feels like a decade. We need to win the middle more.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Solution? Fewer minutes as a prop?
Or do we just need to improve the wrestle? we either give up a speedy play the ball, and Jake feels he has to make every tackle because our line often is not set ... or else we wrestle clumsily and give up a penalty or 6 again. Feels like it anyway.

I think it's a cattle problem so my solution involves farewelling a number of players

To be allowed to wrestle and slow down the ruck, you have to win the initial contact. Jake seems to wrestle in those instances where we have not won the initial contact, and he deliberately sails close to the wind in an attempt to offset the roll-on of the opposition. I feel we end up in those situations because of a lack of athleticism/speed that allows the opposition to wedge in behind the ruck and make inroads against our slow lumbering middles, leading to quick play-the-balls and/or penalties when someone (often Jake) attempts to push the envelope and slow it down.

Unfortunately, you cannot coach speed so I am concerned we are stuck with this problem. It was something that concerned me in the offseason and unfortunately, it played out through the season. I was against letting Fainu go to the Tigers, against the Schuster re-signing and thought we were building the wrong type of pack. I'd like to see youth and speed in our pack. Players like Lodge, Brown, Aloiai, Sipley are not the answer. We should be building a lean and mobile pack (e.g. Navale) that can stand up to the current speed of the game.

Also, Harry Grant's performance last night is a reminder of how far away we are from threatening around the ruck.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I feel we end up in those situations because of a lack of athleticism/speed

Also, Harry Grant's performance last night is a reminder of how far away we are from threatening around the ruck

Agree. I'm a fan of Croker but, but... it can't go on like this!
Best case scenario...Simpkins has a massive pre-season, starts on the bench Round 1 and quickly proves he's worthy of more minutes.

As for overall lack of speed/athleticism in the pack... Jake, Paseka, and Haumole are automatic starters, so add a maximum one (only) big bopper on the bench. Assuming Lodge is not extended, Aloiai gets that spot or maybe Sipley takes it from him. James hopefully a year older and better, can be 2nd back-up reserve bopper.

6 others to round out the pack and bench should all be out of reasonably mobile players Bull, Navale, Burbo, Tevaga, Brown, Waddell, Arthur, (and a mystery guy, hopefully some new signing who is already better than those ones!)

We played at least one too many lumbering types in the finals. (Or maybe 2 or 3 too many) 😱

 

[LeonardCohen]

Agree. I'm a fan of Croker but, but... it can't go on like this!
Best case scenario...Simpkins has a massive pre-season, starts on the bench Round 1 and quickly proves he's worthy of more minutes.

As for overall lack of speed/athleticism in the pack... Jake, Paseka, and Haumole are automatic starters, so add a maximum one (only) big bopper on the bench. Assuming Lodge is not extended, Aloiai gets that spot or maybe Sipley takes it from him. James hopefully a year older and better, can be 2nd back-up reserve bopper.

6 others to round out the pack and bench should all be out of reasonably mobile players Bull, Navale, Burbo, Tevaga, Brown, Waddell, Arthur, (and a mystery guy, hopefully some new signing who is already better than those ones!)

We played at least one too many lumbering types in the finals. (Or maybe 2 or 3 too many) 😱

Agree.

I think Waddell is the perfect type of middle that could have helped in the finals. Along with Navale and Bullemor, we’d have that burst of speed over the advantage line and enough mobility to keep some line speed for more than the first 15 minutes of a game.

All is not lost I suppose. There have been instances where what is essentially the same roster, comes back bigger and better the following year. Strangers things have happened. The way Tom was tracking, if he’d been fit in those final three matches of the year, things may have been different. If we hadn’t suffered two concussions in the final against the Chooks too…

I’m keeping the faith. It was an enjoyable season and I like the fight we showed to stay in games, which I haven’t seen from a Manly side for a long time.