Manly's spine is not good enough

[frank stokes]

Spine was the best part.

Forwards and centre’s are the ones that lag here. Injuries and lack of composure didn’t help.

NYEagle

Our forwards were found wanting in both our finals losses... losing Keppie early sure did not help but we got out muscle by Souffs and the boys were put under pressure and got cooked early by constant errors against drizzle so there were excuses maybe...

I am not having a shot at the boys effort because they were great for us all year but the Rabbits and Riff forwards won them those big games... the Riff blokes were HUGE last night...

 

[Bearfax]

Having watched a lot of Lewis and Cliff Lyons I can see distinct elements of both in Schuster, and in his day Lewis was pretty big for a 5/8 (he's also my all-time best player). His problem from the perception of many, is that Schuster is too big for 5/8. Size is actually an advantage in the modern game for that role, as long as they have the skills to set up their supports and create opportunities. Schuster has those as well as being a damned good defender. Like Turbo, size makes the player more intimidating and we've seen Schuster often break through tackles and create quite amazing feats. As a second rower, these skills are dampened because of the extra work he has to do as one of the two 80 minute forwards in the side. He does twice the number of tackles as Foran, even more than DCE, who is a defensive tiger, yet he gets criticised for not impacting in attack. Wont happen as long as he is a second rower. We are not seeing the best of this very talented ball player because he's in the wrong position.

 

[Dion Johnson]

Having watched a lot of Lewis and Cliff Lyons I can see distinct elements of both in Schuster, and in his day Lewis was pretty big for a 5/8 (he's also my all-time best player). His problem from the perception of many, is that Schuster is too big for 5/8. Size is actually an advantage in the modern game for that role, as long as they have the skills to set up their supports and create opportunities. Schuster has those as well as being a damned good defender. Like Turbo, size makes the player more intimidating and we've seen Schuster often break through tackles and create quite amazing feats. As a second rower, these skills are dampened because of the extra work he has to do as one of the two 80 minute forwards in the side. He does twice the number of tackles as Foran, even more than DCE, who is a defensive tiger, yet he gets criticised for not impacting in attack. Wont happen as long as he is a second rower. We are not seeing the best of this very talented ball player because he's in the wrong position.

Good post @Bearfax, for me Cliffy was my favourite player, the magician and under the current rules with the room they provide would be an absolute nightmare for opposing teams.

 

[Hotspur2014]

Good post @Bearfax, for me Cliffy was my favourite player, the magician and under the current rules with the room they provide would be an absolute nightmare for opposing teams.

Cliffy is the GOAT !!!!

 

[Mataiforever]

If it were me I’d be having a punt on Ben Turbo at centre to combine with Schuster at 2row. He has all the attributes, size, speed and of course the last name

Put Parker on Saab’s side as Saab is more suspect in defence it seems and at doing the tough stuff than Garrick

 

[Deleted member 26876]

If it were me I’d be having a punt on Ben Turbo at centre to combine with Schuster at 2row. He has all the attributes, size, speed and of course the last name

Put Parker on Saab’s side as Saab is more suspect in defence it seems and at doing the tough stuff than Garrick

Definitely worth testing that out

 

[Snake]

I think it's pretty obvious Tommy carried the side this year.

What options do we have for next year ?? Outside chance that Fainu comes back and may give us some spark at 9, but the 7, 6 and 1 look locked in for another year.

DCE obviously had a pretty poor game against Souths but I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that Tom carried us all year and in doing so, imply that our spine is not good enough when you consider Foran and Daly:

• both have played for their country.
• both are premiership winners
• One has a Churchill Medal
• One is going to finish in top 5 for Dally M
• One has captained QLD to an Origin series win

They clearly have the pedigree.
Apart from a try against Cronulla and another against Cowboys, Tom's tries and assists have all come off the back of 'team' structures. We have been very good at giving him the necessary time and space to do his thing. Sure, it's better when he is the guy on the end of the structure but I don't think Tom in a Tigers outfit make a prelim final. The disallowed try and the drop ball no try in a prelim final were both really good pieces of ball playing from Foran and DCE respectively. It was only a lead runner and a drop ball that prevented our halves from creating points on the biggest stage. Cronk and Ricky Stuart have both praised Daly's game at different stages throughout the year and neither have a vested interest in pumping up his tires. I agree with your assertions that his leadership has been questionable at times but the ability of our spine is one of the least of our worries.

 

[Shoe1]

If it were me I’d be having a punt on Ben Turbo at centre to combine with Schuster at 2row. He has all the attributes, size, speed and of course the last name

Put Parker on Saab’s side as Saab is more suspect in defence it seems and at doing the tough stuff than Garrick

Schuster and burbo were a try scoring duo in the juniors.

 

[PONTIAN SEA EAGLE]

Nothing wrong with our spine it’s the dumb errors we make in the games.

 

[Snake]

If it were me I’d be having a punt on Ben Turbo at centre to combine with Schuster at 2row. He has all the attributes, size, speed and of course the last name

Put Parker on Saab’s side as Saab is more suspect in defence it seems and at doing the tough stuff than Garrick

They're also really close mates and love playing footy together.

 

[Marto1970]

He is Wally Lewis shaped, the best ever 6.

I think Wally was a lock then moved to 5/8

 

[Tragic Eagle]

What concerns me about our 6 & 7 is that against both the Storm and the Rabbits whilst our stage coach was running out of control neither of them were capable of grabbing the reins and taking control.

 

[Bearfax]

I think Wally was a lock then moved to 5/8

Lewis was an Australian school boy star in the same team as the Ella brothers and Michael O'Connor. Played Full back and wing in his junior days, and even played centre, then switched to lock and later 5/8 when he started first grade for Fortitude Valley and later Wynnum Manly. Went on to then star as a five eighth for much of the remainder of his career, moving to lock again in later years when he slowed up and had a dangerous partnership with Alan Langer at half. At one time signed with the Sea Eagles with Gene Miles, but was blocked by Queensland authorities. In my opinion he was the best player I've ever seen and almost won tests against GB alone, like Turbo does for Manly. I consider Bozo number 2.

 

[maxta]

I think any questions regarding the spine are gone the moment Fainu is at 9.....maybe Foran is on last legs, but had an admiral season and Not the reason for Manly's demise in the finals.
In fact as an example - we could have swapped our spine with both Melbourne and Storm and the way both those sides dominated the middle 3rd....would have been the same outcomes with easy Wins to both Storm and South's....
In fact I think Tommy T would have scored 3 thries in each game and DCE would have had far more time to create and looked way better also, Croker would have been solid and Foran would have looked far better also.

 

[jbb/james]

there has been a number of games over the last 2 years where we have got to see the spine in action without tommy. sure we added foran this year and his contributions were good but still modest. steady and controlling which is really good but doesnt seem to have enough reach in the game

fainu , like tom is another player who can bring cherry into the game as chez sniffs around that middle to back up has been missed but he is still in the smash them open mould of player rather than getting into the grind style

I have no doubts our spine has been dragged along by Tom and we shouldnt try to cover over that. Rugby League has always had the purple patch and while toms improvement isnt in question id suggest we have just had a touch of the mauve, so the spine will need to provide much more moving forward if we see ourselves as consistent top 4 kinda guys

its not what they did its what we can expect next year now

 

[Mals]

Dangerous to assume this. Our record without turbo speaks for itself.

We are weak at 9 with no attacking spark. The top teams have already figured us out as we are too one dimensional in attack.

Both our halves are over 31 and winding down their careers.

Our spine is easily the weakest of the top 5 sides. The Roosters will also be right back up there next year with Keary back.

I don't think 1-17 we are 100% fine. We've blooded some amazing young talent. But we are a couple of pieces off truly contending. And we need to fix our edge defense. On both edges.

It will be interesting to see how Keary goes next year. A friend of mine who knows him told me he has been really badly affected physically & mentally this year by the concussions. He’s already planning for life after footy.

 

[Bearfax]

Its important for me to say, and its just an opinion, that my comments about Schuster are not made to diminish Foran's efforts this year which have exceeded my expectations. He has performed well and is a good foil for DCE. My argument is that Schuster is potentially, I believe, one of the best players on the rise in the game. But I would suggest its detrimental to burn him out with forward play when his skill is ball play.

Lets be serious when describing the backline. The two standouts by a long shot are DCE and Turbo. It can be seen in the number of try assists the two create (Turbo : 28 tries 28 try assists in 18 games, DCE 9 tries 27 try assists in 25 games). No one in the side comes within cooee of those stats and we mustn't forget that DCE averages almost 21.5 tackles a game. Without these two Manly would be in the bottom half of the comp.

Now we compare that to many on this forum's favourite, Foran. His stats show 4 tries, 11 try assists and 3 offloads in 25 games. If we look at Schuster, playing second row, he has 2 tries 9 try assists and 21 offloads in 21 games. Add to that Foran does 15.4 tackles a game at 86.4% efficiency while Schuster averages 27.9 tackles a game at 93.5% efficiency.

What these figures show is that what we see on the field, especially in those flashy moments, hides the actual work these players do.

Now I know many will think I'm bagging Foran. Quite the opposite. I think Foran has done remarkably well this season. I just think Schuster would do better if given the chance at 5/8. I think an opportunity is being lost. The mixed messages on this forum keep indicating Schuster is too big, too slow, too whatever for 5/8 and is better suited to second row. Yet I read regular criticism of his play he's too fat, not involved enough etc at second row without recognising he is one of our two 80 minute forwards and he does a lot of defensive work. In fact for involvement he is one of the top four involved in the game.

Schuster has played second row in the juniors and that's the argument used for him being suited for such. In fact he was moved from second row in the juniors to 5/8 because it was recognised that's where his skill lay. In the second row he was not as effective. I personally, and I have enormous respect for Des, but I think he's erring with Schuster. And what worries me is if he is left in the second row, other clubs will eventually turn up to offer big money and an assurance of 5/8 to break his existing contract. If I was Schuster, I would be very tempted.

 

[Rocky]

Its important for me to say, and its just an opinion, that my comments about Schuster are not made to diminish Foran's efforts this year which have exceeded my expectations. He has performed well and is a good foil for DCE. My argument is that Schuster is potentially, I believe, one of the best players on the rise in the game. But I would suggest its detrimental to burn him out with forward play when his skill is ball play.

Lets be serious when describing the backline. The two standouts by a long shot are DCE and Turbo. It can be seen in the number of try assists the two create (Turbo : 28 tries 28 try assists in 18 games, DCE 9 tries 27 try assists in 25 games). No one in the side comes within cooee of those stats and we mustn't forget that DCE averages almost 21.5 tackles a game. Without these two Manly would be in the bottom half of the comp.

Now we compare that to many on this forum's favourite, Foran. His stats show 4 tries, 11 try assists and 3 offloads in 25 games. If we look at Schuster, playing second row, he has 2 tries 9 try assists and 21 offloads in 21 games. Add to that Foran does 15.4 tackles a game at 86.4% efficiency while Schuster averages 27.9 tackles a game at 93.5% efficiency.

What these figures show is that what we see on the field, especially in those flashy moments, hides the actual work these players do.

Now I know many will think I'm bagging Foran. Quite the opposite. I think Foran has done remarkably well this season. I just think Schuster would do better if given the chance at 5/8. I think an opportunity is being lost. The mixed messages on this forum keep indicating Schuster is too big, too slow, too whatever for 5/8 and is better suited to second row. Yet I read regular criticism of his play he's too fat, not involved enough etc at second row without recognising he is one of our two 80 minute forwards and he does a lot of defensive work. In fact for involvement he is one of the top four involved in the game.

Schuster has played second row in the juniors and that's the argument used for him being suited for such. In fact he was moved from second row in the juniors to 5/8 because it was recognised that's where his skill lay. In the second row he was not as effective. I personally, and I have enormous respect for Des, but I think he's erring with Schuster. And what worries me is if he is left in the second row, other clubs will eventually turn up to offer big money and an assurance of 5/8 to break his existing contract. If I was Schuster, I would be very tempted.

Ive been defending Foran to an extent the last few days -i thought he was good this year and we could have won a premiership with him at the 6. In short he wasnt the reason why we lost the big games.

But i also agree with your last paragraph. Whether we think Schu is a 6 or a forward or centre...its clear the Schu sees himself as a 6. And there has to be a real danger that the longer he doesn't play the 6 the discontent will get stronger. He gives the lip service he's ok with the forwards. But we are kidding ourselves if he is happy playing there.

 

[Marto1970]

Lewis was an Australian school boy star in the same team as the Ella brothers and Michael O'Connor. Played Full back and wing in his junior days, and even played centre, then switched to lock and later 5/8 when he started first grade for Fortitude Valley and later Wynnum Manly. Went on to then star as a five eighth for much of the remainder of his career, moving to lock again in later years when he slowed up and had a dangerous partnership with Alan Langer at half. At one time signed with the Sea Eagles with Gene Miles, but was blocked by Queensland authorities. In my opinion he was the best player I've ever seen and almost won tests against GB alone, like Turbo does for Manly. I consider Bozo number 2.

He was one of only a few that seemed to be able to win games by himself not only club games but origin's and tests

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Now I know many will think I'm bagging Foran. Quite the opposite

Quite the opposite indeed. You're bagging Des.

And bagging Schu? You may be underestimating the character or intelligence of the young bloke if you really think he is that big-headed.

I can't say I share your concerns about Schu being so unhappy with his alleged poor treatment that he escapes to greener pastures. However if you are right, he can head off and rub Des's nose in it, and no doubt take a few of his mates who will probably also be deeply offended by his poor treatment.

Although I think it's more likely you are just slightly impatient in this case - let's see how the kid and the team is going this time next year, my prediction is we'll both be pretty happy.