Lack of Energy

[Budgie]

I keep reading this rubbish about us being flat track bullies and unable to beat a top four side.

Firstly, the Panthers are not just a 'top four side'. They are the Premiers who have lost just six games in two years and, for that matter, the best starting reigning Premiers I've seen in many a long year.
And as for 'flat track bullies', I'm sorry, who doesn't want to win big any chance they get? What sporting organisation doesn't want to put big wins on teams lower than them to attain ladder position.
Sheesh!
Stop drinking the media and social media Kool Aid kids!

 

[47MVEagle]

Agree mate. Thought that with Toff as well.

Jake is a wonderful player....literally wonderful. Just don't think he's a lock. They need to be able to make breaks (think Gift, Menzies, BK, Kosef & others), I think he really needs to play in the middle.

Maybe Schuster would make an amazing lock. Particularly while Foz is in the team. They say Lock is basically 5/8, so it's the closest thing to his natural position and game? I also hope Schuster has dropped 10-15k/g's this off season.

Schuster did look a bit leaner in pre-season photos.

 

[Ryan]

I keep reading this rubbish about us being flat track bullies and unable to beat a top four side.

Firstly, the Panthers are not just a 'top four side'. They are the Premiers who have lost just six games in two years and, for that matter, the best starting reigning Premiers I've seen in many a long year.
And as for 'flat track bullies', I'm sorry, who doesn't want to win big any chance they get? What sporting organisation doesn't want to put big wins on teams lower than them to attain ladder position.
Sheesh!
Stop drinking the media and social media Kool Aid kids!

But Melbourne / South's are, and they pump us (without including the Panthers results):

Souths 36 - Manly 16 (2021)
Storm 40 - Manly 12 (2021)
Storm 28 - Manly 18 (2021)
Souths 26 - Manly 12 (2021)
Storm 30 - Manly 6 (2020)
Souths 56 - Manly 16 (2020)
Storm 18 - Manly 4 (2020)
Souths 34 - Manly 26 (2019)
Storm 36 - Manly 6 (2019)
Storm 10 - Manly 11 (2019) 27th July 2019
Souths 21 - Manly 20 (2019)

So since July 2019, we've not beaten Penrith, Melbourne or Souths, which kind of supports the theory of not being able to beat the better teams. Have to go back to the Barrett era, when we were beating those top teams.

 

[maxta]

I keep reading this rubbish about us being flat track bullies and unable to beat a top four side.

Firstly, the Panthers are not just a 'top four side'. They are the Premiers who have lost just six games in two years and, for that matter, the best starting reigning Premiers I've seen in many a long year.
And as for 'flat track bullies', I'm sorry, who doesn't want to win big any chance they get? What sporting organisation doesn't want to put big wins on teams lower than them to attain ladder position.
Sheesh!
Stop drinking the media and social media Kool Aid kids!

Firstly Im expecting a MASSIVE statement from our forward pack this Roosters game
But I can't blame those type of comments about the Manly side failing to combat the rugged physical finals type games and it's fair to say they look lost and predicatable in these games also...where as against the softer teams, can gain that momentum to allow the stars to shine - particularly Tom T.
I think the record speaks for itself on reflection and I don't think ppl making this type of judgement do so to mock the Seaeagles, more frustrated as it has become a pattern.
Totally agree it's a great way to improve on for/against to destroy the lessor teams and gain confidence at the same time.

 

[47MVEagle]

I think it's because the word "bullies" has negative connotations.

Put simply, we're very capable of beating most of the teams in the comp on any given day but struggle with the top 4 mainstays (Penrith, Storm, Roosters & Souths).

I know it was only round 1 but both Souths & Roosters looked to have lost their veneer of invincibility.

Whether this will continue for the season & Manly will be able to usurp their top 4 positions & cement 3rd spot for themselves remains to be seen but I'm enthusiastic about it

 

[Ryan]

I think it's because the word "bullies" has negative connotations.

Put simply, we're very capable of beating most of the teams in the comp on any given day but struggle with the top 4 mainstays (Penrith, Storm, Roosters & Souths).

I know it was only round 1 but both Souths & Roosters looked to have lost their veneer of invincibility.

Whether this will continue for the season & Manly will be able to usurp their top 4 positions & cement 3rd spot for themselves remains to be seen but I'm enthusiastic about it

12th

 

[Eagles4Life]

I think it's because the word "bullies" has negative connotations.

Put simply, we're very capable of beating most of the teams in the comp on any given day but struggle with the top 4 mainstays (Penrith, Storm, Roosters & Souths).

I know it was only round 1 but both Souths & Roosters looked to have lost their veneer of invincibility.

Whether this will continue for the season & Manly will be able to usurp their top 4 positions & cement 3rd spot for themselves remains to be seen but I'm enthusiastic about it

Early days of this season, but I think we will struggle to get a win over both the Panthers and the Storm. I am pretty confident we will beat both the Roosters and the Rabbitohs this year. Hopefully we also maintain our dominance over the Eels as well.

 

[47MVEagle]

12th

I think we'll do better than that mate, I reckon top 6

 

[Eagles4Life]

12th

3rd

 

[Ryan]

Hope that's the case boys We have a solid team on paper!!

BUT, I think the games changed a lot even from last year. There's a huge hole at 9 that just isn't going to get addressed anytime soon. Croker (in my opinion) has literally done an amazing bloody job there, and probably out-performed most halfbacks that would play Hooker (Roosters currently being the only one in the same boat as us). I won't criticize his performances, because he's absolutely killing it (importantly - all things considered). I'd actually love to see him have a crack at 6 or 7 (in the event of injury).

But 2022 demands specialists.

As others have said, our forward composition isn't designed for 2022 footy. Lean, explosive, up-tempo, lightning fast play-the-ball types are the sweet spot right now. Not the lumbering, power types of yesteryear (unless they also have heaps of X-Factor - see AFB).

We don't have the players to control the ruck, and in particular, the ruck SPEED, both in attack and defense. We are quite slow at everything we do (including play-the-ball speed). We also seem to be flipped over in tackles onto our backs.

I wish these were easy fixes, but I think it's the personnel. All amazing players individually, just the combination (and team make-up) for mine may be the issue (also playing so many players out of position - which could work in the early 2,000's).

Hence 12th I guess.

 

[alafua8]

Schuster did look a bit leaner in pre-season photos.

Schuster was ready to go before the mishap at training .They need him at 6,7 or 13 to create space for our edge forwards and the back 3 .We should try him in those positions to find out where he can help the team the most .He needs to be the first receiver either left or right side for us to move forward from last year .Go Manly .

 

[Technical Coach]

Technical Coach​

Many times at the start of games Manly make good contact in defence but it is almost impossible to sustain good contact and slowing down of the play the ball on every single tackle against mobile, sharp, powerful with good footwork go forward, it only requires one fast play the ball and that can generate two to three fast play the balls.

maxta​

I watched Manly through Keppie and Jake make as big or bigger contact than the Panthers pack
But there was a key problem.
They do it solo and it ends up a 1 on 1 tackle and even when dominant, the Penrith players were fighting hard and still beat the Manly defender to their feet...often promoting the ball behind the Manly tackler and shutting the Manly marker in an offside position which started a ridiculous roll on effect....no doubt was a tactic and the energy levels kind of double down the momentum and not only drain the defensive line...the following tackles the Penrith players were poking through bending the line and creating a flow on attack that had Manly's D line shot inside out that was back peddling.
In these rigorous, physical games in the future, I will be suprised if Des does not adopt a gang style of tackle involving 3 -4 defenders to slow up that play ball area....

Manly have not flooded the tackle area for a while now and prefer to dominate with stong contact more than numbers in the tackle, it's not as simple as saying "lets gang style tackle" to slow down the ruck like other teams if you lack the players and defensive techniques to do so.

For starters extras in the tackle means players have to involve themselves in more tackles(even if it is just third man flopping in) which increases defensive fatigue, a more thin set defensive line and the risk of even more penalties if your wrestling technique and peeling off the tackled player is not applied in a manner that is smooth and controlled.(meaning it looks so composed and dominant the ref rewards the controlled technique with more time to peel off the tackled player)

Mobile fit packs can defend in numbers consistently, more flexible in the wrestle and get back into a good defensive position faster, larger packs will struggle to sustain this level of intensity unless their own go forward is good and dominating field position.

Manly have to strike the right balance by improving numbers in the tackle at times but i don't see it as an all out adoption to save us.

 

[maxta]

Manly have not flooded the tackle area for a while now and prefer to dominate with stong contact more than numbers in the tackle, it's not as simple as saying "lets gang style tackle" to slow down the ruck like other teams if you lack the players and defensive techniques to do so.

For starters extras in the tackle means players have to involve themselves in more tackles(even if it is just third man flopping in) which increases defensive fatigue, a more thin set defensive line and the risk of even more penalties if your wrestling technique and peeling off the tackled player is not applied in a manner that is smooth and controlled.(meaning it looks so composed and dominant the ref rewards the controlled technique with more time to peel off the tackled player)

Mobile fit packs can defend in numbers consistently, more flexible in the wrestle and get back into a good defensive position faster, larger packs will struggle to sustain this level of intensity unless their own go forward is good and dominating field position.

Manly have to strike the right balance by improving numbers in the tackle at times but i don't see it as an all out adoption to save us.

Manly have dominated by winning the contact ???
They were torn apart on Friday even when making good contact, Keppie and Jake were left on the ground while Penrith played the ball as had no supporting defenders, thought this was pretty clear really and expected you as a TC, would have it as a Massive red flag that needs change ??
Similar to the finals series, where opposition teams with big players (yes big forwards like Manly), who used numbers so your reference of it's not that easy adding numbers...there is NO easy, it's a tough sport at NRL level, but it's better than getting gassed by your defence backpeddling, while the opposition plays the ball like a touch footy game.
In actual fact, you fatigue an attacker more by controlling and dominating while he struggles....
Also you have much longer to reset the defensive line, actually helping these defenders maintain energy.
Also this contributes to being able to follow up tackle after tackle, which as a player, gives everyone a lift across the field and maybe put pressure on that Perfect Penrith team who were allowed to play perfect as set the tempo.
The worst contribution to these bigger defenders tiring, is retreating backwards and having the opposition playing the ball 100mph.
The repeat penalties that concern you are also 3 times as obvious and easy to give away by that 1 - 2 man tackle as you are granted far more lattitude with a dominant tackle in numbers to ease off the tackle and have your defensive line in perfect position to go ahead.
I have a strong feel we will start seeing this type of defence vs Roosters Friday and also reckon it will work and add energy and control of the game....and hopefully the result

 

[Technical Coach]

Manly have dominated by winning the contact ???
They were torn apart on Friday even when making good contact, Keppie and Jake were left on the ground while Penrith played the ball as had no supporting defenders, thought this was pretty clear really and expected you as a TC, would have it as a Massive red flag that needs change ??
Similar to the finals series, where opposition teams with big players (yes big forwards like Manly), who used numbers so your reference of it's not that easy adding numbers...there is NO easy, it's a tough sport at NRL level, but it's better than getting gassed by your defence backpeddling, while the opposition plays the ball like a touch footy game.
In actual fact, you fatigue an attacker more by controlling and dominating while he struggles....
Also you have much longer to reset the defensive line, actually helping these defenders maintain energy.
Also this contributes to being able to follow up tackle after tackle, which as a player, gives everyone a lift across the field and maybe put pressure on that Perfect Penrith team who were allowed to play perfect as set the tempo.
The worst contribution to these bigger defenders tiring, is retreating backwards and having the opposition playing the ball 100mph.
The repeat penalties that concern you are also 3 times as obvious and easy to give away by that 1 - 2 man tackle as you are granted far more lattitude with a dominant tackle in numbers to ease off the tackle and have your defensive line in perfect position to go ahead.
I have a strong feel we will start seeing this type of defence vs Roosters Friday and also reckon it will work and add energy and control of the game....and hopefully the result

You read me wrong, i'm saying Manly's style of defence in general is about trying to dominate with strong first up contact in defence and less to do with numbers and wrestle relative to "some", i'm not saying it is an effective method, it can be when the refs reward such methods.(rare these days)

No idea why your reply went on the tangent of explaining the benefits of numbers in tackles, you are stating the obvious and i never stated this isn't the case.

My reply is about it not being a simple fix of just applying the numbers method in tackles like it doesn't have it's draw backs.

There will be periods where Manly can pull it off against lesser sides and when our go forward is of quality for consistent periods and other times we will struggle, lack composure in it's implementation and get pinned like crazy for being too slow to peel off the tackled player or lacking controlled structured techniques that give off the impression of composure and an attacker that looks submissive.

It takes time to master such techniques for consistent results, better overall fitness levels and the types of players in your squad need to suit also.

Manly are capable I'm sure but it's not a simple straight forward case of implementing what others do for consistent results, there will be many teething problems and frustrations along the way.

The risk is trying to copy this style without perfecting the art and getting pinned even more so than our present issues using our current methods, we will then start to bounce from one method to another and dig ourselves a deeper hole.

Yes we have to implement this style more(and we will) but gradually and balanced, we can't expect to go full tilt in this direction for a while yet.

 

[maxta]

For starters extras in the tackle means players have to involve themselves in more tackles(even if it is just third man flopping in) which increases defensive fatigue, a more thin set defensive line and the risk of even more penalties if your wrestling technique and peeling off the tackled player is not applied in a manner that is smooth and controlled.(meaning it looks so composed and dominant the ref rewards the controlled technique with more time to peel off the tackled player)

Mobile fit packs can defend in numbers consistently, more flexible in the wrestle and get back into a good defensive position faster, larger packs will struggle to sustain this level of intensity unless their own go forward is good and dominating field position.

Manly have to strike the right balance by improving numbers in the tackle at times but i don't see it as an all out adoption to save us.

I read exactly what you posted as above and don't agree.
The 3 - 4 man tackles create more fatigue is a farce.
The main reason Manly are juiced with these 1 - 2 man tackles, is the opposition attackers winning the quick play ball while the 1-2 players who made the tackle are still getting off the canvas - meanwhile with the markers often out of play and the ref screaming "offside" at the other middle defenders who are still backpeddling, the tackles get flimsy with grabs and the attack making 15m a carry....this happens again...again...till the kick where there is zero pressure as again (the defence is retreating), landing the kick 5m - 10m out from Manly's line (as had all day to place it), winger gets smashed...players coming back on side, breathing so hard with hands on hips and struggle to get back till tackle 3 or 4....and yes - they again hit in numbers slowing the play and bashing our runners....we then kick from our 40m line and prey DCE finds space, otherswise they start from their 30m - 40m line and its the same set again.
Yet these other Top sides with big men like Solomona, Jess Bromwich, Kamikamica, Burgess, Tatola, Nicholls, Leota, Fisher Harris and many more, get more mileage from "controlling" the ruck and game tempo and benefit from this defensive structure - then have more vigour and energy when running the footy as a result also.
These 3 - 4 man tackles do more than just help the defence maintain energy, but actually zap the attacker who has been dominated on their back and are struggling to find feet, taking seconds longer as the defence gets an easy reset and off the line with vigour, as opposed to backpeddling and struggling for air, also ensuring the defence has the option to get off the line and shut down a potential shift or have time to adjust and slide.
Anyways, will see what happens in coming games, I reckon Manly will start applying more of this style defence and maybe as early as Friday vs Roosters.

 

[47MVEagle]

I want to see the refs enforcing the play-the-ball mark - this "wriggle forward in the tackle then step over a prone tackler not trying to get to his feet for fear of getting pinged for interfering in the ruck thereby placing he & the dummy half marker in an offside position" tactic is unfair & should be penalised as repeated walking off the mark.

It's like watching a game of touch footy.

 

[alafua8]

We tried the 5 hit ups then kick in our round one game and no other option with our attack which have the best back 3 in the competition .As I have mentioned before , the set we did not kick after 5 tackles we scored and what a try it was .This tells me that if we try something different with 50% of our possession and minimise our errors ( which will help us defend less )we can win this year .Our defense is good but we are giving the opposition 10 extra sets and is hard to defend against the top teams .If on a day the top teams ( Penrith and Melb .) makes more errors than us ,we will beat them easily and hopefully it will happen this year .

 

[Brookie Bob]

If 1 to 2 man tackles can both stop the opposition go-forward and lock the ball up, great. If they can't, the offloads will possibly give the opposition even better field position and increase fatigue in our defense.

Is it much better tackling technique or greater numbers in defence which will give us what we want? There is a downside to greater numbers in defence - in certain situations. Fast, accurate cross-field passing will get around a stacked middle-third - or wherever you have an aggregation of defenders.

It's further complicated by the simple fact that some opposition players are simply harder to tackle (one on one, or even two on one), and bigger players will usually target smaller players in defense.

The big question - can Manly's players be coached to be better technique-wise as this season progresses - or is their technique already set from their junior days?

I'll coin a (possibly) new term - "defensive certainty". This could be an indication of how often a player one on one (or part of a collective tackle) stops an opposition player for no (or as little as possible) post-contact metres and offloads. No-one is perfect, but some defenders are 'more perfect' than others.

It could be expressed as a percentage, for example, "Jamie Lyon was one of Manly's best ever players for Defensive Certainty, with a percentage reading of 90%." For practical purposes, it may have to be divided into 2 stats - one for no/little post-contact meters in defense, and the other for no offloads / least number of offloads.

I'm sure a team's confidence can be measured by how much they trust the defensive capabilities of the players beside them - against all comers.

 

[PONTIAN SEA EAGLE]

Every side plays with similar enthusiasm after winning a grand final we did the same.Relax guys in des we trust we’ll come good.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Funny, I never thought there was a lack of energy last week, just got worn down by the better side.
But I just remembered, might have been Croker in a recent interview who said 80% of our squad had covid in the off-season (or pre-season?) so maybe there was.