Knox on Salary Cap and other blatant unfairness

[Budgie]

Once again, he's spot on here:

Rugby league only has one problem – but it’s a bloody big one

If the NRL wants to reward its best-performing clubs and encourage others to emulate their standards, maybe it should drop the salary cap and just let ’em rip.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

He lost me a bit with that article. Repeating the tired old mantra that Manly ‘bought’ premierships (name them Mal,* and by the way if that’s so - who hasn’t?) and the salary cap breach. What exactly was the breach? Something about third party agreements? If it was for real, it did highlight one of the unfortunate aspects of Fulton’s last tenure with the club.

*Knox is a Manly supporter.

 

[master blaster]

But yet you have the roosters who one week are saying , some players have to be tapped on the shoulder because they have salary cap pressure to the value of 5 Million dollars and the next week sign Jaxon Paulo from the bunnies. What happened to November the 1st or does that rule only apply for certain clubs. Honestly the NRL is so lopsided to certain clubs and they dont do anything about it. The game is dying and nobody seems to give a S...t

 

[The '47ers]

But yet you have the roosters who one week are saying , some players have to be tapped on the shoulder because they have salary cap pressure to the value of 5 Million dollars and the next week sign Jaxon Paulo from the bunnies. What happened to November the 1st or does that rule only apply for certain clubs. Honestly the NRL is so lopsided to certain clubs and they dont do anything about it. The game is dying and nobody seems to give a S...t

They did well, poor old Jaxson's price dropped like his catches the other week 🤭

 

[Disco]

But yet you have the roosters who one week are saying , some players have to be tapped on the shoulder because they have salary cap pressure to the value of 5 Million dollars and the next week sign Jaxon Paulo from the bunnies. What happened to November the 1st or does that rule only apply for certain clubs. Honestly the NRL is so lopsided to certain clubs and they dont do anything about it. The game is dying and nobody seems to give a S...t

Paulo is off contract. The Nov one rule only applies to players off contract at the end of 23.

He also signed a min wage deal (apparently).

I mean I'm all for slating the Roosters but Paulo aint the example for it

 

[manly al]

Really do not share the pessimism , granted some sides seem to have a distinct advantage with player recruitment and retention but Sharks for instance would be in a similar category or comparable club situation wise and Titans even made the play off "s last season Look at the Cows and even faltering Broncs . So things can turn around quite quickly with a bit of good fortune and having your best players available for the majority of the season And of course and in particular having your marquee players available and firing on a regular basis obviously helps also Turbo has played what , just over 30 % of the past 4 seasons , D C E , well hardly justifying his highest paid player ranking in the main . Just never got the right mix going recently unfortunately also , sure if A F B was retained , Fainu was available and at his best , Turbo a regular , could or most likely could be an entirely different state of affairs now competitiveness wise . Still have the basis of a good side going forward , If Garrick does leave , real shame but just might be able to get a good gain in another critical position . Tippy toes or Vaega , should or very likely provide some good input if that does eventuate , not sure about the goal kicking situation though . just have to shake the injury handicap and things should be so much better .

 

[Budgie]

Really do not share the pessimism , granted some sides seem to have a distinct advantage with player recruitment and retention but Sharks for instance would be in a similar category or comparable club situation wise and Titans even made the play off "s last season Look at the Cows and even faltering Broncs . So things can turn around quite quickly with a bit of good fortune and having your best players available for the majority of the season And of course and in particular having your marquee players available and firing on a regular basis obviously helps also Turbo has played what , just over 30 % of the past 4 seasons , D C E , well hardly justifying his highest paid player ranking in the main . Just never got the right mix going recently unfortunately also , sure if A F B was retained , Fainu was available and at his best , Turbo a regular , could or most likely could be an entirely different state of affairs now competitiveness wise . Still have the basis of a good side going forward , If Garrick does leave , real shame but just might be able to get a good gain in another critical position . Tippy toes or Vaega , should or very likely provide some good input if that does eventuate , not sure about the goal kicking situation though . just have to shake the injury handicap and things should be so much better .

But what of the Storm and the Roosters Al?
I actually think it's a great pity there's no player draft like so many other pro sports have. I guess that's being stopped though by the like of Uncle Nick?

 

[conanu]

Knox is bang on the money here, salary cap has been non existent since they allowed 3rd party deals. All these clubs like Roosters and Melbourne circumvent the cap by getting players invested in private equity firms that return figures like 20% compounding interest year on year. So if someone like Lodge signs with them and then Politis introduces him to a private equity company on the sly where player invests say 200k gets 20% return each year in 3 years that 200k becomes $345,600 so they are paying an extra 150k without doing anything. Sure players could do this themselves but most aren't smart enough and like the idea of mixing it with the top end of town plus they play in winning sides due to the lop sided talent in these clubs. Poorer clubs end up paying the same players 350k on the books because in order to go to a struggling club they want that cash guaranteed, so a guy like Munster may go to the Dolphins but he won't need to go to private equity firm because he will get it all from his contract. Not to mention Politis is a director of a company that basically has a car yard in every major town or city in Australia so he can make that call to some random peugeot dealer in toowoomba and tell them they are sponsoring a Roosters player as a 3rd party without it being linked to him or the club. A points system would stop all that but Politis would never let Vlandys get away with it. Once Politis joins Bozo in the afterlife Roosters will sink like a stone.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Knox is bang on the money here, salary cap has been non existent since they allowed 3rd party deals. All these clubs like Roosters and Melbourne circumvent the cap by getting players invested in private equity firms that return figures like 20% compounding interest year on year. So if someone like Lodge signs with them and then Politis introduces him to a private equity company on the sly where player invests say 200k gets 20% return each year in 3 years that 200k becomes $345,600 so they are paying an extra 150k without doing anything. Sure players could do this themselves but most aren't smart enough and like the idea of mixing it with the top end of town plus they play in winning sides due to the lop sided talent in these clubs. Poorer clubs end up paying the same players 350k on the books because in order to go to a struggling club they want that cash guaranteed, so a guy like Munster may go to the Dolphins but he won't need to go to private equity firm because he will get it all from his contract. Not to mention Politis is a director of a company that basically has a car yard in every major town or city in Australia so he can make that call to some random peugeot dealer in toowoomba and tell them they are sponsoring a Roosters player as a 3rd party without it being linked to him or the club. A points system would stop all that but Politis would never let Vlandys get away with it. Once Politis joins Bozo in the afterlife Roosters will sink like a stone.

I’ve been banging on about the points system for years , maybe not perfect but certainly a lot fairer than what we have now.

 

[Brissie Kid]

Good the subject is being put back on the table.

The argument for the cap was it spread talent and stops clubs going broke. On both counts, it fails.

Its all false anyway as the NSWRL brought in the draft to spread talent. The cap's job was to stop overspend, not spread talent. Then the draft got tossed out by legal action. But as a tool, the cap is not a good way to spread talent.

Clubs have no cap on anything except players salaries. They can go broke overspending anytime they want on coaches, facilities and whatever, but they don't. The cap is not spreading the talent, as the last 20 years has shown.

but but but lets copy AFL's draft..... Which ignores that AFL is a closed shopped for playing talent. AFL will never have a Terry Hill moment. Where does an AFL player go if don't like being in the draft and forced to go to a club? Try that in NRL and the player can go to Super League or RU or even AFL, or there will be another court action to destroy the draft anyway.

In my view the answer is just get rid of the cap and let it rip. Raid RU of its top stars like before the cap came in. On top of Super League, there's hundreds of wannabe RU pros out there looking for a fulltime gig. There's more than enough players out there. Make NRL the top 'rugby' comp in the world.

If that on its own is too scary, then have a points ranking system, where each player is given a set points value. Then on game day each club can only field a team with a maximum set points level. So even if one team buys all of the best players, they can't field them all at the same time anyway.

As for the 1970s and Manly raiding other teams stars, no one was stopping the other clubs from doing the same if they wanted.

In the 1970s there were 13 players in the top team. Now there's 17 players. Over 16 clubs that 16 x 4 = 64 players sitting on the interchange every round. Enough to fill the Dolphins easy and boost the other teams at the bottom of the table. Get rid of the interchange.

 

[manly al]

But what of the Storm and the Roosters Al?
I actually think it's a great pity there's no player draft like so many other pro sports have. I guess that's being stopped though by the like of Uncle Nick?

Not ideal but will just have to live with that little bit of imbalance where the Roosters and storm are concerned As mentioned previously , Storm a few years ago had something like 850 k in T P A " s , Roosters and could even be a couple of others , finding ways to get some definite advantage . But Roosters and Storm are still not guaranteed to win the comp every season so there are still some variables with the present situation . Draft is surprisingly accepted quite well in the A F L but a non starter in League for a range of reasons , Not an advocate for being in League personally . Need a lot of things going a club 's way but even for less privileged clubs like Manly , can still get close or actually be in a position to take a title .Things were not that much different just prior to 2007 - 08 for Manly, just had the right player mix then to be serious contenders for the best part of 7 or so years then

 

[Ranga]

But what of the Storm and the Roosters Al?
I actually think it's a great pity there's no player draft like so many other pro sports have. I guess that's being stopped though by the like of Uncle Nick?

Historically it was the players that successfully prevented it. But your tight, these days the likes of Uncle Nick would be loathe to give up a competitive advantage.

 

[Budgie]

Historically it was the players that successfully prevented it. But your tight, these days the likes of Uncle Nick would be loathe to give up a competitive advantage.

And it would take Uncle Nick to prevent a court battle against the RLPA so that would be the end of that.
I'd imagine if the NRL did want to get it done they could afford the legal eagles to make it airtight.

 

[Nordburg]

A draft system would work for players already in the system,eg Taupau etc.But as for young or players new to the system,that’s where it gets tricky.The NRL would have to restructure every competition,pathways system and junior leagues below the top level in the country for it to have any chance of working.Imagine a scenario that has Penrith spending millions on their junior comps and development to see their best young players go elsewhere.You’ll very quickly see Penrith not put any $$$ into development and that’ll be the same for all clubs that develop their own talent.The NRL would need to run and fund everything.AFL clubs basically don’t have juniors aside from a few having academies,all young players coming through have been developed by either their junior clubs or schools

 

[Ryan]

Really do not share the pessimism , granted some sides seem to have a distinct advantage with player recruitment and retention but Sharks for instance would be in a similar category or comparable club situation wise and Titans even made the play off "s last season Look at the Cows and even faltering Broncs . So things can turn around quite quickly with a bit of good fortune and having your best players available for the majority of the season And of course and in particular having your marquee players available and firing on a regular basis obviously helps also Turbo has played what , just over 30 % of the past 4 seasons , D C E , well hardly justifying his highest paid player ranking in the main . Just never got the right mix going recently unfortunately also , sure if A F B was retained , Fainu was available and at his best , Turbo a regular , could or most likely could be an entirely different state of affairs now competitiveness wise . Still have the basis of a good side going forward , If Garrick does leave , real shame but just might be able to get a good gain in another critical position . Tippy toes or Vaega , should or very likely provide some good input if that does eventuate , not sure about the goal kicking situation though . just have to shake the injury handicap and things should be so much better .

Mate, Tommy kitted up for 7 games early (when our full roster was available) and we won 3, lost 4 (so 45% odd win ratio), which is where we are at right now.

 

[Ranga]

And it would take Uncle Nick to prevent a court battle against the RLPA so that would be the end of that.
I'd imagine if the NRL did want to get it done they could afford the legal eagles to make it airtight.

There is definitely a path forward on it (legally), but it would need the NRL and RLPA to work together. Just doesn’t seem to be a priority for either of them though. I would have thought that the mooted material increase in the salary cap would be the ideal carrot to get get a draft in place.

 

[Ranga]

A draft system would work for players already in the system,eg Taupau etc.But as for young or players new to the system,that’s where it gets tricky.The NRL would have to restructure every competition,pathways system and junior leagues below the top level in the country for it to have any chance of working.Imagine a scenario that has Penrith spending millions on their junior comps and development to see their best young players go elsewhere.You’ll very quickly see Penrith not put any $$$ into development and that’ll be the same for all clubs that develop their own talent.The NRL would need to run and fund everything.AFL clubs basically don’t have juniors aside from a few having academies,all young players coming through have been developed by either their junior clubs or schools

You raise a good point. Perhaps a way to address that is to give clubs a priority draft pick or two for talent that was developed. But you are right, a draft would necessitate a huge overhaul of systems and pathways - I’d say it would be worth it.

 

[Nordburg]

You raise a good point. Perhaps a way to address that is to give clubs a priority draft pick or two for talent that was developed. But you are right, a draft would necessitate a huge overhaul of systems and pathways - I’d say it would be worth it.

One area that can improve player movement is trades.Reuben Garrick for example,he’s under contract at Manly now but rumours are he wants to move to Newcastle so he can play fullback(get more money more like it)so if the Knights want him,they must be willing to give something up in return,of equal or higher value.Some may say the NRL already works like that but in most instances,the player eventually gets what he wants for nothing because clubs don’t want to have a player on their books that wants out.This way they’re getting something back

 

[globaleagle]

One area that can improve player movement is trades.Reuben Garrick for example,he’s under contract at Manly now but rumours are he wants to move to Newcastle so he can play fullback(get more money more like it)so if the Knights want him,they must be willing to give something up in return,of equal or higher value.Some may say the NRL already works like that but in most instances,the player eventually gets what he wants for nothing because clubs don’t want to have a player on their books that wants out.This way they’re getting something back

That is used a fair bit with sports that have a draft. gives the teams more negotiating parameters.

If there's no players that manly think is an even swap then it's like:

You can have rubes if we get klemmer and your first round draft pick next year (eg).

It's hard when you have the blake green experience of "I want out and am not coming to training if you don't let me go"

 

[Nordburg]

That is used a fair bit with sports that have a draft. gives the teams more negotiating parameters.

If there's no players that manly think is an even swap then it's like:

You can have rubes if we get klemmer and your first round draft pick next year (eg).

It's hard when you have the blake green experience of "I want out and am not coming to training if you don't let me go"

That’s where the NRL and RLPA need to be stronger