Kaeo Weekes

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Come on Jay. The kid is 22 and now Canberra's first pick half. Despite their loss yesterday, they are above Manly, sitting in 6th spot. He must be doing something right. Hardly call him average. I know someone local who is a Raider's supporter and he thinks Manly were mad to let him go. He's a few years from his best, just as Gutherson was,, around the same age, when he moved to the Eels. Similar to Tom Wright, The Brumbies full back who according to the SMH assessor is consistently the top full back from the Australian rugby sides, has been the Wallaby's full back, and Eddie Jones recently rated him as one of the best he's seen. There are others. Manly made some questionable recruitment decisions over the past decade. Fortunately this year they seem to have a made a few good ones...at last.
…. You can say the same thing about Schuster, Latu, and plenty of others ( just read the smokin joe thread on juniors)…there are not many players that became a Gutherson

“Talent” is very overrated,

Just sayin’
 

Lyonstomenzies

Bencher
Premium Member
…. You can say the same thing about Schuster, Latu, and plenty of others ( just read the smokin joe thread on juniors)…there are not many players that became a Gutherson

“Talent” is very overrated,

Just sayin’
You get people that struggle in the juniors like Glen Stewart, who late in their careers kick on.

I always thought Gift was one of the best Manly back rowers I saw play, but he spent 2 seasons in reserves.

You never know when someone will be a dud, solid clubman, or a star.

Just as well we are all keyboard coaches and selectors and not the real thing. 🤣
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
…. You can say the same thing about Schuster, Latu, and plenty of others ( just read the smokin joe thread on juniors)…there are not many players that became a Gutherson

“Talent” is very overrated,

Just sayin’


If you were speaking about someone who is 28- 30 and hadn't made it, I would acknowledge the point. But you're not. Schuster has his problems but the talent is there. If he gets his head together I've no doubt he'll succeed. Latu has only just turned 19. OK he hasn't set the world on fire but Gutherson hadn't at 22. The problem with what you're saying is that a player has to be a star at 20 or he's a has been. Tommy Talau is 24 and only now are we seeing his worth. He was a reserve grader at Wests. Always again I say 'patience'. Sometimes a change of environment helps. Weekes has found his niche. What you should be saying is I wonder what he will be like in 2-3 year when he approaches his peak, not when he's still a kid. Unrealistic instant gratification expectations seem rife on this site. The reality is different.
 

Ryan

Journey Man
It’s usually the ones that complain in general. I think most know this guy ain’t gonna be a superstar in 1st grade. He’s not even a first choice half in Canberra. Only playing due to Fogarty injury. He’s going ok tho.
As opposed to the usual ones praising us as we sit in 12th (or whatever)....
 

bob dylan

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
You get people that struggle in the juniors like Glen Stewart, who late in their careers kick on.

I always thought Gift was one of the best Manly back rowers I saw play, but he spent 2 seasons in reserves.

You never know when someone will be a dud, solid clubman, or a star.

Just as well we are all keyboard coaches and selectors and not the real thing. 🤣


Seen a kid play under 7's by under 12's he was being watched by every team in the now NRL.

By 16 he was always gonna be an Australian and NSW captain. By age 23 he had done it all.

A freak of nature.
 
If you were speaking about someone who is 28- 30 and hadn't made it, I would acknowledge the point. But you're not. Schuster has his problems but the talent is there. If he gets his head together I've no doubt he'll succeed. Latu has only just turned 19. OK he hasn't set the world on fire but Gutherson hadn't at 22. The problem with what you're saying is that a player has to be a star at 20 or he's a has been. Tommy Talau is 24 and only now are we seeing his worth. He was a reserve grader at Wests. Always again I say 'patience'. Sometimes a change of environment helps. Weekes has found his niche. What you should be saying is I wonder what he will be like in 2-3 year when he approaches his peak, not when he's still a kid. Unrealistic instant gratification expectations seem rife on this site. The reality is different.
Humm! I think you misread my post ! Anyway the last part of your post I agree with!
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
Humm! I think you misread my post ! Anyway the last part of your post I agree with!
If I did MT I apologise. I get in this feeding frenzy state, looking for lunch to devour. Main point I was making is you don't know how good the cake is, until its cooked. You don't throw away the ingredients or the cake half cooked, because the taste at that stage is not to your liking. You don't throw away a half grown peach because its tart, before is fully ripened. Patience. Lets see what the end product is before we throw it away.
 

mave

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Hard to have patience when your coaching career could be over at any minute, or you have KPIs to meet for the owner.

Ricky on the other hand has half a decade to be patient with Weekes.
 

LeonardCohen

Bencher
If I did MT I apologise. I get in this feeding frenzy state, looking for lunch to devour. Main point I was making is you don't know how good the cake is, until its cooked. You don't throw away the ingredients or the cake half cooked, because the taste at that stage is not to your liking. You don't throw away a half grown peach because its tart, before is fully ripened. Patience. Lets see what the end product is before we throw it away.
Players don't get 'thrown away' per se. There is this illusion that the club is impatient and makes poor retention decisions. That's not true at all. There is a salary cap to consider and ALL clubs have players that were once on their books, doing good things elsewhere. It's the nature of professional sport. And don't say they were signed and released early as some indicator that they were tossed out because the club thought they were no good; salary cap management is fluid and circumstances change. Players are often released early to (a) take a better opportunity somewhere else or (b) another player's stocks rise, requiring more cap space to retain or (c) another position has been identified as needing more depth, etc.

If Josh Schuster goes on to be successful somewhere else, it does not mean Manly made a mistake. It wasn't working at Manly at that particular time. Likewise, Gutherson. We let him go to use the money to sign Walker, who had some fantastic years at Manly in the centres, before an horrific ankle injury robbed him of his greatest asset; speed. He was still quick but never quite the same and eventually moved to the forwards. Would Gutherson have been as successful playing centre? Probably not. He is clearly a fullback and was never going to take Tom's spot. That he has been great for Parramatta, is not a Manly error, just a part of professional sport. Weekes would not be a better fullback than Tom, a better 5/8 than Brooks, a better centre than Koula or Garrick, a better winger than Saab or Talau. It was not a mistake to let him go, even if he ends up being fantastic. He was not going to make the starting side and he is too good to have in NSW Cup, so he left for an opportunity somewhere else. No one has made an error.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
Players don't get 'thrown away' per se. There is this illusion that the club is impatient and makes poor retention decisions. That's not true at all. There is a salary cap to consider and ALL clubs have players that were once on their books, doing good things elsewhere. It's the nature of professional sport. And don't say they were signed and released early as some indicator that they were tossed out because the club thought they were no good; salary cap management is fluid and circumstances change. Players are often released early to (a) take a better opportunity somewhere else or (b) another player's stocks rise, requiring more cap space to retain or (c) another position has been identified as needing more depth, etc.

If Josh Schuster goes on to be successful somewhere else, it does not mean Manly made a mistake. It wasn't working at Manly at that particular time. Likewise, Gutherson. We let him go to use the money to sign Walker, who had some fantastic years at Manly in the centres, before an horrific ankle injury robbed him of his greatest asset; speed. He was still quick but never quite the same and eventually moved to the forwards. Would Gutherson have been as successful playing centre? Probably not. He is clearly a fullback and was never going to take Tom's spot. That he has been great for Parramatta, is not a Manly error, just a part of professional sport. Weekes would not be a better fullback than Tom, a better 5/8 than Brooks, a better centre than Koula or Garrick, a better winger than Saab or Talau. It was not a mistake to let him go, even if he ends up being fantastic. He was not going to make the starting side and he is too good to have in NSW Cup, so he left for an opportunity somewhere else. No one has made an error.


Have to disagree on some points LC. I pointed out before I thought Manly handled the Schuster situation satisfactorily. Difference there was he was given ample opportunity to show his wares. Something else was happening to him and though I thought Des handled him in a manner I thought was less than satisfactory, the situation was reached where he just wasn't giving back what he was set to earn. Right decision I felt to let him go.

The other players were very young and would have stayed with Manly withiut expecting big money at that stage in their career. Manly have paid bigger bucks to bring in others and some were less talented. Weekes and Tom Wright were encouraed to look elsewhere. Same as Gutherson. These are kids Manly nurtured throughout the juniors and then after only a few games were shown the door . Gutherson played 5 games for Manly, Tom Wright 5 games a couple only minutes on the field, Weekes 12 games. They are each succeeding elsewhere. All that time to develop them and then let them go, not because of big money offered elsewhere, but because Manly seemed to be saying they didn't want them. They were each encouraged to look elsewhere.

That is my issue LC. Lack of patience. We could have used Gutherson. Look what we ended up with until recently. If you are developing these players and they are the cream of your juniors, used to how Manly plays, mates with others on the rise, why show them the door when the potential is so obviously there. I recall Manly would not have done this in the past even after the salary cap was introduced.
 

LeonardCohen

Bencher
Have to disagree on some points LC. I pointed out before I thought Manly handled the Schuster situation satisfactorily. Difference there was he was given ample opportunity to show his wares. Something else was happening to him and though I thought Des handled him in a manner I thought was less than satisfactory, the situation was reached where he just wasn't giving back what he was set to earn. Right decision I felt to let him go.

The other players were very young and would have stayed with Manly withiut expecting big money at that stage in their career. Manly have paid bigger bucks to bring in others and some were less talented. Weekes and Tom Wright were encouraed to look elsewhere. Same as Gutherson. These are kids Manly nurtured throughout the juniors and then after only a few games were shown the door . Gutherson played 5 games for Manly, Tom Wright 5 games a couple only minutes on the field, Weekes 12 games. They are each succeeding elsewhere. All that time to develop them and then let them go, not because of big money offered elsewhere, but because Manly seemed to be saying they didn't want them. They were each encouraged to look elsewhere.

That is my issue LC. Lack of patience. We could have used Gutherson. Look what we ended up with until recently. If you are developing these players and they are the cream of your juniors, used to how Manly plays, mates with others on the rise, why show them the door when the potential is so obviously there. I recall Manly would not have done this in the past even after the salary cap was introduced.
You’re entitled to your opinion but yeah I don’t rate Tom Wright the turnstile. Weekes is decent but not better than anything we already have. Gutho is a genuine fullback IMO and we already had Tom so good luck to him.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
You’re entitled to your opinion but yeah I don’t rate Tom Wright the turnstile. Weekes is decent but not better than anything we already have. Gutho is a genuine fullback IMO and we already had Tom so good luck to him.


That's the same Tom Wright who has been the Wallabies test Full back, the Tom Wright identified most weekends as the top full back in games played here and NZ. The same om Wright, Eddie Jones is raving about. And to preempt a response, Rugby Union backs play fairly similarly to Rugby league backs. Its the forwards that play a quite different style. And to further preempt, Rugby Union is at least as tough as League and is far more internationally based than League. To suggest League is better is merely parochialism. Just getting in early with the expect responses from some.

As far as Weekes is concerned, we have DCE aged 35, Brooks aged 29 Humphreys aged 22 (same age as Weekes and yet to play first grade). We wouldn't expect him to be better at this stage of his career than two well established first graders, and was ahead of Humphreys in pecking order. Bit unfair I would have thought comparing established players with a novice.
 
Have to disagree on some points LC. I pointed out before I thought Manly handled the Schuster situation satisfactorily. Difference there was he was given ample opportunity to show his wares. Something else was happening to him and though I thought Des handled him in a manner I thought was less than satisfactory, the situation was reached where he just wasn't giving back what he was set to earn. Right decision I felt to let him go.

The other players were very young and would have stayed with Manly withiut expecting big money at that stage in their career. Manly have paid bigger bucks to bring in others and some were less talented. Weekes and Tom Wright were encouraed to look elsewhere. Same as Gutherson. These are kids Manly nurtured throughout the juniors and then after only a few games were shown the door . Gutherson played 5 games for Manly, Tom Wright 5 games a couple only minutes on the field, Weekes 12 games. They are each succeeding elsewhere. All that time to develop them and then let them go, not because of big money offered elsewhere, but because Manly seemed to be saying they didn't want them. They were each encouraged to look elsewhere.

That is my issue LC. Lack of patience. We could have used Gutherson. Look what we ended up with until recently. If you are developing these players and they are the cream of your juniors, used to how Manly plays, mates with others on the rise, why show them the door when the potential is so obviously there. I recall Manly would not have done this in the past even after the salary cap was introduced.
Was the club impatient.. or was the player impatient?
 

Will on the hill

Bencher
Tipping Member
That's the same Tom Wright who has been the Wallabies test Full back, the Tom Wright identified most weekends as the top full back in games played here and NZ. The same om Wright, Eddie Jones is raving about. And to preempt a response, Rugby Union backs play fairly similarly to Rugby league backs. Its the forwards that play a quite different style. And to further preempt, Rugby Union is at least as tough as League and is far more internationally based than League. To suggest League is better is merely parochialism. Just getting in early with the expect responses from some.

As far as Weekes is concerned, we have DCE aged 35, Brooks aged 29 Humphreys aged 22 (same age as Weekes and yet to play first grade). We wouldn't expect him to be better at this stage of his career than two well established first graders, and was ahead of Humphreys in pecking order. Bit unfair I would have thought comparing established players with a novice.
 

Will on the hill

Bencher
Tipping Member
Just to clarify Bearfax, are you making a case that we should've kept Weekes or just that he may well turn out to be a good player one day?
 

LeonardCohen

Bencher
That's the same Tom Wright who has been the Wallabies test Full back, the Tom Wright identified most weekends as the top full back in games played here and NZ. The same om Wright, Eddie Jones is raving about. And to preempt a response, Rugby Union backs play fairly similarly to Rugby league backs. Its the forwards that play a quite different style. And to further preempt, Rugby Union is at least as tough as League and is far more internationally based than League. To suggest League is better is merely parochialism. Just getting in early with the expect responses from some.

As far as Weekes is concerned, we have DCE aged 35, Brooks aged 29 Humphreys aged 22 (same age as Weekes and yet to play first grade). We wouldn't expect him to be better at this stage of his career than two well established first graders, and was ahead of Humphreys in pecking order. Bit unfair I would have thought comparing established players with a novice.
like I said, turn style.
 

maxta

First Grader
Premium Member
You’re entitled to your opinion but yeah I don’t rate Tom Wright the turnstile. Weekes is decent but not better than anything we already have. Gutho is a genuine fullback IMO and we already had Tom so good luck to him.
That's a super accurate description
Tom Wright offers crazy abilities as an attacking back, but if you can't tackle you play union....if you can tackle AND attack in that order....you have the potential of an NRL career
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
Was the club impatient.. or was the player impatient?



The club 'invited' each of those players to look elsewhere. Gutherson had even signed to a 2 year contract with Manly in 2015 but because of a knee injury was unavailable for much of that year. Manly released him from the contract later in the year, I suspect because they had Turbo and Gutherson mainly played full back. No thought was obviously given to the fact that he could play centre and five eighth and that both Matai and Jamie Lyon were at the end of their careers. Two months later Manly signed Dylan Walker. Work it out.

Tom Wright was off contract and given Barrett's lack of interest in using him, and I suspect delays in any offer to renew, the Brumbies offered him a solid contract, so I suspect given little interest from Manly and despite Bob Fulton's recruitment of him and high opinion, he left.

Weekes was, according to reports, told his contract would not be renewed with Manly at the end of 2023.

I dont see any impatience there on the part of the players.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
That's a super accurate description
Tom Wright offers crazy abilities as an attacking back, but if you can't tackle you play union....if you can tackle AND attack in that order....you have the potential of an NRL career


Gets back to the old issue that you can teach tackling, how to run into holes, how to remain fit, but you cant teach innate skills. I just read that item from Talau admitted that he missed tackles against Turbo five times in his first game. Yet today he's defensively quite good. Its something that can be learned. Innate, that is natural skills, cant be taught. These players I identify, such as Gutherson, Tom Wright, Weekes, Schuster, Lehi Hopoate, Latu Fainu etc have innate skills. The trick is to ensure the other teachable skills are learned at training and as they develop. Some take longer to learn those other necessary skills., but the thing is, the initial foundation is there. So patience is required. Might not be achieved but they are the sort of players you stick with as long as you can.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
like I said, turn style.


LC. Defense is learned. Innate skill is natural. I mentioned in another response about Talua's claim that when playing his first game, Turbo ran through him five times, he says. Seems Wright has no problems today, given he's recognised as the No 1 full back in the Australian four Rugby Union sides playing the top echelon of the sport.
 

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