How to improve ? Positives and Negatives !!

[MuzztheEagle]

Too many big forwards. Sipley at 120kg, Woods at 111kg (plus the rest), Paseka at 120kgs, Lodge at 117kg, Keppie 110, Bullemor at 110kg and Olakau'atu at 113kg's. Considering the Riff has three forwards at/over 110kg, Eisenhuth 111kgs (not a regular in the 17), Eddie Blacker at 115kg (not a regular in the 17) and Leniu at 110kgs.
Every Riff forward bar Leniu are under 110kgs.
The only big forwards I'd use would be Paseka and Olakau'atu. Propbably would've resigned Lodge for 2024, but since his ACL is stuffed not anymore. Get rid of Woods, Sipley, Boyle, Tuilagi Keppie. Keep Bullemor, Condon and Matterson. Move Schuster to 2nd/bench. Buy smaller forwards as Brodie Jones, Luke Garner and Luke Thompson.

I'd argue that it's not so much our specific players but our training that's causing the issue. There is no reason for Schuster to still be the size he is, yet here we still are. Likewise, we have plenty of forwards who could easily shed 10-20kg. I think too many of our players just love the gym and the bragging rights around lifting, wrestling and speed comparisons. When it comes to cardio training, I suspect there's more than a few not putting 100% in and I expect that will continue even if we switch some of the players out for smaller ones.

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Changes are needed not just in personnel both playing and coaching staff but in the way we approach the game. Using Jake as first receiver is a huge mistake that stifles our attack and makes us easy to defend against. We really really need a genuine number 9 that is crafty and quick and that is not required to be a tackling machine that carries the rest of the pack. Croker does a mighty job but he is not the answer. We need to let Woods, Sipley and Parker go and recruit. Our fitness is clearly not up to scratch as we have no line speed in defence and get gassed regularly. That one lies with the coaching staff. During the pre season and early in the season we looked like we were heading in new direction and then Seibold fell into a hole and lost his progressive approach. if he continues in the same view in 2024 he won't be cosaching us in 2025.

 

[Rocky]

To many blah type forwards.

Keppie, Woods, Sipley, Aloiai (went from being a good first grader to a mediocre one in the space of 12 months), Condon, Boyle.

I get that you need minimum type guys to fill out a roster but would rather have one really good prop and two min guys than the Keppie, Sipley and Josh A current rotation.

Just too many mediocre players on 400-600k level that are only fringe first graders.

And Croker i love the guy but we need something better at hooker.

I'd try and work towards the following for next year YART given the current situation

8. Jake
9. Croker
10 Paseka
11. Schuster
12. Burbo
13. Haumole

Bench

14. Aloiai
15. GCKT
16. Bullemoor
17. Tuilagi

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

With a decent run of injuries, we are probably a 6-10 side, with injuries, probably a 10-14 side, which is exactly where it has played out in the end

For me, the biggest change has to be in the coaching, but it won’t happen. The head coach needs to look at the pieces we have available, and work a game plan around the squad that we have, rather than the cookie cutter stereotype footy that all the modern coaches try to wheel out. That’s why the likes of Bennett, Bellamy and Hasler to a degree have always been successful, utilisation of what they have. The ability to bring young guys through has been a concern, none bigger than Weekes, he has shown no development at all this season which is a big red flag for me, after the promise he showed last year

Fans get too caught up on the stereotypes of modern day footy, such as the forwards have to be a certain size, the wingers have to be tall etc


Biggest change for me would be to ditch this flat attack and actually play with some depth. We have one of the best weapons in the comp with Olakau’atu, and he never hits the ball at pace, he beats guys jogging and palming. Far too much structure, I personally believe that is part of the trouble with Schuster, in his head he is spending too much time thinking at this point in the set we have to be at this point on the park etc, rather than looking up and seeing what is there and playing accordingly with what comes naturally, as most of his highlights this year have been. If he is parked in the backrow without the mind clutter next season, he could be a big point in turning it round.

Defensively I thought we were in for something special after that Storm game at Brookie early on, they smashed them relentlessly and never stopped coming. Sadly that defensive effort did stop coming, and it’s mind boggling the difference in attitude from week to week in that area

I’m overall reasonably happy with the effort and fight put into most games, can’t really think of games where I’ve felt they’ve completely put the cue in the rack

Some fresh faces are coming, and that is always nice to mix things up. Personally I hate reading all this rubbish about which clubs the players come from all the time, and how they can’t be any good. Look at Penrith people say, well they haven’t had any issues buying Garner and Laurie from the tigers, both players scoffed at on here when mentioned

 

[HK_Eagle]

1. Koula
2. Saab
3. Garrick
4. Talau/Turbo
5. Jaxson
6. Brooks
7. DCE

8. Paseka
9. a specialised dummy half
10. Jurbo
11. Ola
12. Burbo
13. Schu

14. Croker
15. Bully
16. a mongrel impact mobile middle
17. a mongrel impact mobile middle

I think Koula at fullback is something worth exploring. He would need time and patience to develop there. I don't think we can go on relying and hoping Turbo will come good health wise. I would consider letting Turbo go (save those $ and put them elsewhere). If he stays, then I'd slot him in the centres in place of Talau and see how the team progresses with this arrangement over the season. Koula and Turbo could always switch around depending on injuries and game situations.

We need a specialised hooker. Simple. No more of this hor$e$**** handicap moving forward. Croker could shift to 14 utility and share the dummy half role. Depending on the specialised dummy half we get, Croker could always start there to sure up the middle in the early exchanges and then bring on the specialised hooker later. If the dummy half has a tank and can play 80, then Croker remains utility to can come in elsewhere. He could fit in across multiple positions depending on the game situation (including the halves or even lock).

Despite my concerns with Schu's showing this season, I would persevere with him and move him to lock. I don't think he is ready to handle the responsibility of 5/8 (and he may never be right for that position). At 13 he is freed up from the responsibility of guiding the team, but can still inject his brilliance while others handle the overall game management.

I think others have discussed the problem of our over-sized lumbering forwards and I agree we need better balance there. I would also add, Jurbo needs to play in the front row, and re-discover his offload to help compensate for his lack of penetration. He is good for suring up the defensive middle, though needs to clean up his ruck control, and he is the heart of the club.

We could possibly keep Sips, Keppie and Kelma as depth, but I'd let all the other forwards go and wouldn't be too concerned if any or all of these three left too.

 

[Darknstormy]

When there is a problem you go as far back to when the rot started for answers…since 2015 we have been like this..3 different coaches and training staff and we are still rotting away to our first spoon..I don’t know when Penn took over but if it’s in that period then he needs to be surgically removed or we will continue to be inconsistent till we become doomed spooners

 

[Sheikheagle]

I feel as though there’s this notion that everything that happens throughout a game is down to desire; things like line speed and missing tackles.

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

When you’re down on middles already, and you lose another 4 minutes into the game, it’s going to impact on many things throughout the game. Like struggling for field position because you’ve got 4-5th string forwards on the field. The Rooster controlled the middle and things started turning against us.

The best example I can think of is Koula’s miss on Smith. We’d just defended our backsides off for multiple sets and were clearly gassing. Then we go for a wide shift and lose the ball on half way and the Roosters were attacking again. From that set, Koula had nothing left in the tank and Smith scored.

So it’s not a coaching problem and it’s not a Koula technique problem. It’s fatigue from not having the cattle in the middle to ‘go’ with the opposition.

We need some serious middles or we are going nowhere. We probably needed better middles before our injuries but we need them even more now that the average ones have gone down.

It’s middles and a genuine 9 or bust for us. We’ve got the backs and we’ve got a smart coach but we lose the middle just about every week.

Great post

 

[Highflier]

Actually, all are great posts .
2 must haves for 2024
-specialist Hooker whether its GT or Mamazoulus (Souffs) or whoever we need a new one (and if it is GT lets get him in at 14 now and see how he goes FFS!! its not like the result really matters at this point, but he needs to be blooded so we can see if there is potential at least ).This is critical the way the game is played now you need that dynamic 9 who is dangerous from that position on the field and who gets those big forwards onto the ball at pace .The opposition are already on our forwards when they get the ball compounding our lack of meters and space for anything other than trick shots, Croker at 9 as good as he is just doesnt have the extra that is needed to get us to the next level.
-Lodge or someone like him -Lodge has made a visible difference when on the field ( I think he we should support him by extending his train and trial and give him a chance next year at a good price for us once fit)
Other thoughts
- I also think Koula is a better option at FB than Garrick tbh if TT isn't there
-I get everyone wants to get rid of deadwood ,but you have to be able to replace them .On that note why not give 1 or 2 of the BWSE FRs a go on the bench .Not many rate him on here but every time I have seen BWSE live Austin Dias has really gone pretty good.
-BWSE graduate Dean Matterson has been going pretty well since given the opportunity ,its a pity he is not a 9,but the point is he has risen to the occasion ,I think.
-Lastly I can see some green shoots with Burbo who I thought went pretty well last night and should get better if he can stay on the park.
-The Schu being the enigma he is, 1 try and 1 try assist last night , I think needs to get more involved and as LC said needs to play whats in front of him and run a bit more and the likes of Burbo need to follow him around
That was hard watching last night there should have been 2 extra bins with Tapou tackling Koula without the ball and JWH grubby late shot on Jurbo (who should have stayed down) anyways ,as always Go Manly

 

[Killer03]

The negative for me is Schuster. His ability is unbelievable. When I first saw him....WE HAVE A NEW GLENN STEWART????? I couldn't have been more hopeful of him. But last night was the classic. He did nothing for the first 60mins. Lazy tackling, doesn't run the ball. Then the game is over and we produce 2 or 3 things of pure brilliance.

It's just not good enough. We cannot pay (well a backrower next year) $800k to do this.

Again compare him to Glenn Stewart. Glenn would have won the Dally M in 2011 if not for the brawl of brookie (someone may correct me, but he was definitely top 3). Gifts tackle count everygame would have been 20-30. His creativity was incredible. He ran the ball, he did the tough stuff.

Please Schuster....get some old footage of this!

 

[jbb/james]

Kicking game

kicking is a discipline and we lack that in spades

its no coincidence the better teams have the best kicking games and the best attitude toward kicking. Cleary and reynolds games are on point. hughes is pretty good also. they kick with patience and regularly from within the line.

if the best teams kick from the line often and we just dont, is it possible we have missed something

our kicking game is so predictable and doesnt adapt too lazy defence. there were times last night when the roosters were slack from marker and we didnt take the extra metres, and there were plenty to take at times, the flow on affect could have run players onside, maybe run it on last, but just never looked an option. we gave away far too many metres in these situations. almost 2 hit ups at times

thankfully shoe has given us some sort of attacking kick rather than just defensive only mode. he has issues but at least he adds some kicking variation close to the line.

forwards love it, and our planky style forwards are just not built for the game we play

our 2 short drop outs last night were amateur hour, and very similar to our chip/bombs, too long , or not high enough. far too many ineffectual kicks per game. just handovers really

Patience/concentration
mentally weak
the top teams wear down the opposition by being relentless. win the game off that later. if given opportunity we throw a few punches early and if that doesnt work we have nothing and the opposition is still fresh enough to counter attack quickly . this takes confidence and belief and we lack both

the better teams concentrate on field position , pressure and tanking the opp. we are just hoping to get to 60 nil so we are safe from ourselves

this journey, we have no map for, its not in our vocabulary and makes us one of the dumbest manly teams ive witnessed

with a big wind against cronulla our ability to play smart footy at the other end was exposed. sure we had injuries but thats the time to increase the kicking not shelve it

while our forwards struggle as a pack to assert dominance on a consistent basis , to say we dont have opportunities to kick well, and play patient footy is plain wrong. we only know one way and when tom is not part of the equation its pretty hopeful for 80 minutes, let alone a season. our way does not bring success , just highlights

Manlys 21, cronullas 22. it looks good, promises lots but when tested, when the purple patch fades, there is no fallback

when schuster drifts, saab and koula enter the contest. this is a must moving forward as they have appeared wasted. oku is a beast but still looks to be learning edge subtleties

Jake was a wonderful ball playing prop with subtle skills when we paid a motza. now......i dont know what he is, but the tinkering has cost everyone. he is not a 13, he is not a linkman, he looks an old style second rower but to move him from the middles would be suicide, even for 5 minutes

burbo looking Ok, matterson adding some variation at least.
when woodsy enters the game , far too often we need him to turn a match because we are in a hole. he isnt that player and never will be, but for the coin does a fairly professional job.

 

[LeonardCohen]

As for Koula defensively, very rarely does he get square, seems to want to tackle from the side and use his speed to give them an ally outside and is often beaten badly.

I tend to think this is the case for most centres, given the nature of defending so wide of the ruck. The lead runners often hold backrower and this causes the centre to hold their position and if the ball goes out the back, typically the ball will end up 'outside' the defender, causing the defence to 'chase out'. A centre will not always have the luxury of staying 'square' like a middle defender can.

We all know centre is notoriously one of (if not the most) difficult positions to defend in because of the space and decision making that is required. I agree that Koula has some work to do but as for not being square, sometimes that's impossible, given the nature of the position.

Watching the replay of Smith's try last night, it was a simple fend to the chest and down went Koula; that to me reads like fatigue. Typically there would be more force in his drive, but he looked out on his feet.

 

[germaneagle]

They were never going to come away with a victory last night we have had a good month with bounces of the ball and ref calls. Roosters have too many stars that have all had shockers this year eventually they played ok at least the score looked as though we were in it at the end.

 

[maxta]

I tend to think this is the case for most centres, given the nature of defending so wide of the ruck. The lead runners often hold backrower and this causes the centre to hold their position and if the ball goes out the back, typically the ball will end up 'outside' the defender, causing the defence to 'chase out'. A centre will not always have the luxury of staying 'square' like a middle defender can.

We all know centre is notoriously one of (if not the most) difficult positions to defend in because of the space and decision making that is required. I agree that Koula has some work to do but as for not being square, sometimes that's impossible, given the nature of the position.

Watching the replay of Smith's try last night, it was a simple fend to the chest and down went Koula; that to me reads like fatigue. Typically there would be more force in his drive, but he looked out on his feet.

Maybe he was super tired, maybe not - but he misses similar tackles often including when fresh....still young and as you pointed out in another post the outside backs are constantly under the pump due to lack of middle men.
I also think the pressure is from allowing those ultra quick play the balls which have opposition attack enjoying so much space

 

[Rafferty]

Koula’s only 20 and while physically solid for his size, its an issue, Manu bulldozed his way to score last night, watching young Hoskins play in the centre’s tonight, it’s size, Stretch, Staggs, etc, size and aggression in the three quarters is the way to go, especially with head on defensive qualities, goal line defence. Koula‘s strength is his speed and offering us attacking qualities, with space and opportunities to follow the ball, he has the potential to develop at 1, think his defensive work would be way better at one as well, his not timid and can use his speed to his advantage.

Looking at our current pairing and some off the better sides, we would have a better showing with Turbo and Garrick in the centre’s, play Koula at 1, watching Campbell running a muck earlier, Koula can potentially offer us more from 1, he has Walsh, Paps, Kennedy, Campbell like qualities, Garrick does a job, but his not a 1, (I know his only filling in, but we can get a look at Koula at 1 now) we need our 1 injecting himself and following the ball everywhere, Rubes is a winger, his lost at the back, given we have Paulo coming, Sandwich will move in, ( where defensively, he will have to improve) at least Rubes and Tom gives us a three quarter pairing to compete ( sadly Brad can’t take us anywhere) and we might just be pleasantly surprised with Koula at one, if his given the proper opportunity to progress.

We can field a reasonably competitive backline, especially with Tom on board and providing he gets an injury free run, his due, but it’s always going to be a concern, just thinking pro actively about what’s best for the side going forward.

Now our pack and coaching staff are another matter, it’s been well covered, but we’re shot with the pack we have, shot at DH and I don’t think our coach can cut the mustard, he’ll have his chance next year with a squad more of his own making, but examining his recruitment to date doesn’t exactly instil me with any confidence, looking forward. We are going to need a rebuild, let a couple go and go to market. Been thinking about our pack, sure you all have, anyway next post.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

For all the crap Schuster cops, there's a big reason why other teams are in his face the moment he catches the ball....we have no runners from dummy half or lack of. Our play is 1 pass from the hooker to a prop or to Schuster who barely has any time to shrug his man off. Teams know this, and if we had a zippy hooker who can run and create from dummy half and even create some second phase play, the other team would be less inclined to rush up. I understand the frustration with Schuster, but other moving parts need to be working for him to be at his best. If we get another decent prop like another Lodge and also a zippy hooker with creative smarts, Schuster will thrive.
The money spent on Brooks should have been spent on a decent prop. We have an over surplus of halves which I don't think other clubs have.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Koula’s only 20 and while physically solid for his size, its an issue, Manu bulldozed his way to score last night, watching young Hoskins play in the centre’s tonight, it’s size, Stretch, Staggs, etc, size and aggression in the three quarters is the way to go, especially with head on defensive qualities, goal line defence. Koula‘s strength is his speed and offering us attacking qualities, with space and opportunities to follow the ball, he has the potential to develop at 1, think his defensive work would be way better at one as well, his not timid and can use his speed to his advantage.

Looking at our current pairing and some off the better sides, we would have a better showing with Turbo and Garrick in the centre’s, play Koula at 1, watching Campbell running a muck earlier, Koula can potentially offer us more from 1, he has Walsh, Paps, Kennedy, Campbell like qualities, Garrick does a job, but his not a 1, (I know his only filling in, but we can get a look at Koula at 1 now) we need our 1 injecting himself and following the ball everywhere, Rubes is a winger, his lost at the back, given we have Paulo coming, Sandwich will move in, ( where defensively, he will have to improve) at least Rubes and Tom gives us a three quarter pairing to compete ( sadly Brad can’t take us anywhere) and we might just be pleasantly surprised with Koula at one, if his given the proper opportunity to progress.

We can field a reasonably competitive backline, especially with Tom on board and providing he gets an injury free run, his due, but it’s always going to be a concern, just thinking pro actively about what’s best for the side going forward.

Now our pack and coaching staff are another matter, it’s been well covered, but we’re shot with the pack we have, shot at DH and I don’t think our coach can cut the mustard, he’ll have his chance next year with a squad more of his own making, but examining his recruitment to date doesn’t exactly instil me with any confidence, looking forward. We are going to need a rebuild, let a couple go and go to market. Been thinking about our pack, sure you all have, anyway next post.

Completely agree with moving Koula to #1

And yes, Garrick and Turbo in the centres... if we hold on to Turbo and if he's on the field.

 

[mickqld]

It just absolutely baffles me how Hasler and now Seibold could possibly think that signing or re- signing plodders like Aloiai, Woods, Keppie, Taulagi, Condon, Sipley, could possibly compete with this Panthers forward pack. Since 2020 we should've been concentrating on young , fast, mobile powerful forwards even if it meant a couple of years in the bottom 4. The Broncos did it and now they are getting the rewards. As a club we are just so dumb, clueless and out of touch.

 

[The Who]

With a decent run of injuries, we are probably a 6-10 side, with injuries, probably a 10-14 side, which is exactly where it has played out in the end

For me, the biggest change has to be in the coaching, but it won’t happen. The head coach needs to look at the pieces we have available, and work a game plan around the squad that we have, rather than the cookie cutter stereotype footy that all the modern coaches try to wheel out. That’s why the likes of Bennett, Bellamy and Hasler to a degree have always been successful, utilisation of what they have. The ability to bring young guys through has been a concern, none bigger than Weekes, he has shown no development at all this season which is a big red flag for me, after the promise he showed last year

Fans get too caught up on the stereotypes of modern day footy, such as the forwards have to be a certain size, the wingers have to be tall etc


Biggest change for me would be to ditch this flat attack and actually play with some depth. We have one of the best weapons in the comp with Olakau’atu, and he never hits the ball at pace, he beats guys jogging and palming. Far too much structure, I personally believe that is part of the trouble with Schuster, in his head he is spending too much time thinking at this point in the set we have to be at this point on the park etc, rather than looking up and seeing what is there and playing accordingly with what comes naturally, as most of his highlights this year have been. If he is parked in the backrow without the mind clutter next season, he could be a big point in turning it round.

Defensively I thought we were in for something special after that Storm game at Brookie early on, they smashed them relentlessly and never stopped coming. Sadly that defensive effort did stop coming, and it’s mind boggling the difference in attitude from week to week in that area

I’m overall reasonably happy with the effort and fight put into most games, can’t really think of games where I’ve felt they’ve completely put the cue in the rack

Some fresh faces are coming, and that is always nice to mix things up. Personally I hate reading all this rubbish about which clubs the players come from all the time, and how they can’t be any good. Look at Penrith people say, well they haven’t had any issues buying Garner and Laurie from the tigers, both players scoffed at on here when mentioned

Good summation.
I can think of a few matches where we didn't put in:
V Penrith
V Titans
V Brisbane
V Parramatta (2nd match)
V Tigers (we got a lucky win)
V Easts (2nd match)

 

[NREagle]

We badly need to work on our mental toughness.

We can’t recover if the first five minutes go against us (whether it be from injury, error or poor refereeing) and even in games we are dominating if the opposition starts to get on a roll we can’t manage the game well enough to stop it.

We are good at the flashy stuff (long range tries, “tackles of the week” etc) but rarely get in the grind (like we did in the win against Melbourne).

I also actually wonder how often the players go into a match just knowing they will win it. As a fan there was a time when it didn’t matter who we were playing you knew we could get over the line. Now I find myself looking at the draw and trying to work out which teams are weaker than us….and there’s not many on that list.

We started the season as if it was going to be a sprint, when really we should have been preparing for a marathon.

The positives for me:-

Saab and Koula are still a work in progress but I like the way their combination is developing.

Saab is getting better at the tough carries out of our end, and is willing to back himself more in attack. He is also getting better at the scrambling defence and is utilising his speed well when making defensive decisions. He’ll keep improving.

Garrick. He really understands his game and is such a professional. Also like his little flashes of brilliance every now and then (think making a break down the sideline then little chip over the opposition type plays).

Croker. I know this one probably isn’t popular, but I think he is a really good player that is not being utilised properly by Seibold. We need a creative running 14 that compliments the grinding defensive work that Croker gets through. He shouldn’t be our sole dummy half but jeez every time he puts the jersey on he works until he can barely stand and really shows up some of his teammates. And just quietly, I kinda love the way he talks about how much it means to him to play for us…again something some of his teammates could learn from….

Off the field, I think our social media team has been killing it this year.

And the crowd numbers at our home games have been great.

 

[349]

IMO Manly have fallen into the Warriors trap of 10 years ago, big pack and good halves that gas themselves after 25 minutes and get run over by the opposition. The current 6 again and ball in play does not suit a big pack which need a stop start game.

Looking to add some mobility I would look at

1. Turbo/Koula
2. Saab
3. Garrick
4. Burbo/Koula
5. Paulo
6. Brooks
7. DCE
8. Josh Curran
9. Croker/GKT
10. Lodge
11. Oka
12. Schuster
13. Jake
14. Dean Matherson/Burbo
15. Paseka
16. Bullemore
17. Jake Arthurs - to give Jake a spell and play lock/ball player link

18. Parker as injury centre or second row
19. Tippy injury winger
20. Sipley injury prop