How to improve ? Positives and Negatives !!

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maxta

First Grader
Premium Member
Just a few games left and moving forward, it's obvious we need changes if we want to see Manly a legitimate NRL Contender.
Opinions will vary and I'm cool with that, in fact I want to see other Silvertail perspectives....

POSITIVES -

  • DCE has been in great form all season, though last night on attack should have taken control of 6th tackle options, but tried hard which showed with some great defence.
  • Big Oka is a Beast and done Massive plays in Most games, also plays wih aggression.
  • Paseka before injury had his best season and was starting to use his big frame physically.
  • Garrick is a goer, but needs to play wing/centre - big improver in an ordinary side.
  • The signing of Brooks is Super news imo and will be a fan favourite in 2024, will add much spark we currently lack.

NEGATIVES -

  • Clear Winner = Tom injured again !!!!
  • So slow around the ruck in Attack and Defence, the word "Lethargic" comes to mind.
  • Zero spark or threat from dummy half.
  • Lack of cohesion with the ball, like strangers thrown together who don't know each other.
  • Schu great "Potential" but what's that if not used, needs to cop a few bruises and take on the line and improve defence also, the flashy moves from U16's are low percentage and looks unmotivated for a young bloke on BIG $$$
  • Jake is "The Best" tackler in the NRL and a decent link man and I like the bloke, but his $950,000 a season is crazy, I mean Cam Murray is on the same money, Yeo and Carrigan on way less...then theres a value buy like Hopgood at $300,000.
  • Koula is such an attacking threat in attack, but his defence is way off, he does not get square in defence and gets brushed away far too regularly due to his positioning including 2 poor misses that led to Roosters tries and always many line breaks directly through him and being so young, needs to get this right to become a Quality "all round" centre.
  • Tuilagi has been ordinary - makes 2 good runs (Wow) and misses a stack of tackles and grabs at players half hearted, I'd have him in Blacktown with his efforts, as his attitude seems a 3 out of 10.
  • Parker is honourable and full of effort but would not make ANY other team imo.
  • Many other 'ordinary' players past season or 3 who need to be waved goodbye.

Keen to hear other Silvertail opinions on how to improve in 2024, as this is becoming a frustrating side to watch and growing up win, lose or draw the Seaeagles were always fun to watch and almost always "Had a Go"
 

Rosko

Reserve Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Thanks for the constructive and detailed post @maxta
Last night was a truly limp dick effort by a very mediocre, poorly-coached team.
I can't see much basis for improvement, as we are stuck with the same coach and players, plus dregs recruited from the wooden spooners.
I have never enjoyed being a Manly supporter less in 50 years - there were probably worse teams, but never one that was so unenjoyable to watch.
Very happy to be proven wrong...
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
We definitely need improvement
The accountable and responsible coaching staff also need improvement
Improvement starts at the top .
It starts form the decision makers that make choices for coaches, players and game plans
Those people at the Top get paid to come up with winning solutions
Any of us amatures can take over the club and offer excuses
You dont have to be smart to come up with excuses
any mediocre person can do that
Professionals are hired and get paid to come up with winning solutions
 
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Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
All good points @maxta

In relation to where the team is right now ( as in last night ) I’d like to make these points.

The press hammered the Roosters all week , they were always going to be “ up” for that game.

We didn’t look too bad until Lodge got injured , then heads dropped immediately , and we aren’t in the game from then on.

I expected a loss , and it pretty much played out as I expected.

Now to the future , Seibold inherited a Hasler / Fulton team , although granted the acquisition of John’s, Arthur & Woods are on his watch ( I believe most only for 23 and Lodge of course T & T).

There will be a fair change of personnel from 23 to 24 ( I hope ) , probable and / or definite losses are Fainu x 2, Harper , potentially many more.

Known inbounds , Brooks ( great player ) , Talou ( may see more of BWSE) but it’s who he ( they) can add to next years roster that might define Seibolds career.

We are sadly stuck with a few under performers who will be almost impossible to move on , we all know who they are .

We’ll finish 11th / 12th so a very average year but if we finish 11th / 12th in 2024 the calls for Seibolds head will be deafening.

If he wants to survive as an NRL coach things will have to change , but he isn’t the one on the field so until we have the deadwood cleaned out I fear it’s same same.

Who’d be a coach , it’s great money but just imagine the pressure on you week in week out.
 

JakeyB789

Reserve Grader
- Jake is "The Best" tackler in the NRL and a decent link man and I like the bloke, but his $950,000 a season is crazy, I mean Cam Murray is on the same money, Yeo and Carrigan on way less...then theres a value buy like Hopgood at $300,000.
People wonder why our forward pack gets dominated so often but we have an 80 minute lock forward who doesn’t make metres, doesn’t break the line and doesn’t offload the ball (not once this entire season!). Sure his defence and tackling is great but even then he gives away countless penalties and six agains each week, some say it is a necessary evil in order to control the ruck but for mine it’s awful to watch and just compounds our problems.

I love Jake and his passion for the club, and hope he gets to be captain one day but it’s hard to deny he is grossly overpaid at this point in his career. We need to take a good fraction off that salary and move him into a different role where he isn’t getting gassed playing 80 minutes, taking an eternity to get off tackled players and offering zero in attack
 

mickqld

Sea Eagle forever
Tipping Member
The only way we'll improve is to stop recruiting dead wood rejects from other unsuccessful clubs. We desperately needed a couple of forwards like Liam Martin,Spencer Leniu types in the pack.
There's only 3 forwards worth keeping but 1 is way over priced , Jake. The others are Olakau'atu and Bullemore. Paseka is just an injury liability, Sipley is mostly rocks with the odd diamond and the rest are all plodders. Until we throw off the $2mil+ that we pour into Tom no show and DCE flat tracker then we'll never develop a fast, strong, mobile relentless pack of forwards like Penrith has. The potential we had is gone , Fainu, Fifita, Tuitavake replaced by plodders like Woods, Aloiai, Condon.
 

47MVEagle

Bencher
I know it’s very cliched, but I’m looking forward to next year 😂

I agree Brooks is a great signing & think he & DCE will be a great combination in the halves.

I’m interested to see what happens with Lodge - I wasn’t keen on him coming to us but he did indeed provide that mongrel we needed in our forward pack so was okay with him potentially being re-signed. However, in light of his knee injury, will the club keep him or will they look for another mongrel prop for next season?

I’m also hopeful that Schuster comes good as a second rower next year. He showed he is capable in 2021 when Foz was our 5/8th, so I guess it’s up to him to make sure he has a good off/pre season & is fit & raring to go.

I’m eternally hopeful that Turbo can return & play a full season for us.

I get frustrated watching Olakau’atu because he never/very rarely hits gaps at speed, instead he seems to prefer running into a cluster of defenders & trying to drag them across the line with him. He’s a true athletic specimen & I’d love to see him striding out in open space more often, with Koula & Saab outside him.
 
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mickqld

Sea Eagle forever
Tipping Member
10 years of failure. The worst period since the 60s. This club has become one of the perennial joke loser clubs that everyone just laughs at. I see little improvement in the next few years unless we recruit some fast, mobile, enthusiastic, powerful forwards and replace the dads army plodder brigade we have assembled.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
10 years of failure. The worst period since the 60s. This club has become one of the perennial joke loser clubs that everyone just laughs at. I see little improvement in the next few years unless we recruit some fast, mobile, enthusiastic, powerful forwards and replace the dads army plodder brigade we have assembled.
Agree , if they’ll bother coming ( and that’s the issue I fear ).
 

Wombat64

Game day lubrication specialist
Premium Member
Tipping Member
10 years of failure. The worst period since the 60s. This club has become one of the perennial joke loser clubs that everyone just laughs at. I see little improvement in the next few years unless we recruit some fast, mobile, enthusiastic, powerful forwards and replace the dads army plodder brigade we have assembled.
Who else do the Tigers have that we could sign?
 

LeonardCohen

Bencher
I feel as though there’s this notion that everything that happens throughout a game is down to desire; things like line speed and missing tackles.

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

When you’re down on middles already, and you lose another 4 minutes into the game, it’s going to impact on many things throughout the game. Like struggling for field position because you’ve got 4-5th string forwards on the field. The Rooster controlled the middle and things started turning against us.

The best example I can think of is Koula’s miss on Smith. We’d just defended our backsides off for multiple sets and were clearly gassing. Then we go for a wide shift and lose the ball on half way and the Roosters were attacking again. From that set, Koula had nothing left in the tank and Smith scored.

So it’s not a coaching problem and it’s not a Koula technique problem. It’s fatigue from not having the cattle in the middle to ‘go’ with the opposition.

We need some serious middles or we are going nowhere. We probably needed better middles before our injuries but we need them even more now that the average ones have gone down.

It’s middles and a genuine 9 or bust for us. We’ve got the backs and we’ve got a smart coach but we lose the middle just about every week.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Who else do the Tigers have that we could sign?
It’s the problem that the bottom 8 (9) teams all face, players love their $$$$ so they’ll only go to a bottom side for big money ( Api K at the Tigers a great example ).

And we can’t pay every player a million dollars ( and not get done for cheating ).

So it’s a massive quandary isn’t it , we need better players to improve but we can’t afford them.

And without improving, we also aren’t seen as an attractive destination.

Say you get offered $600k to play for Manly or $550 to play for the Storm, I know where I’d go currently.

So that then means we have to pay $750k for a $550k player , and more than likely offer him 3 years not 2.

And we currently don’t have the junior feed that say the Panthers have.

Nor do we have the extensive 3rd party payment network of say the Roosters or the Broncos.

So whilst I realise your comment is a throw away one , we are in all likelihood, stuck buying mediocre players and hoping they’ll turn into good ones.
 

maxta

First Grader
Premium Member
People wonder why our forward pack gets dominated so often but we have an 80 minute lock forward who doesn’t make metres, doesn’t break the line and doesn’t offload the ball (not once this entire season!). Sure his defence and tackling is great but even then he gives away countless penalties and six agains each week, some say it is a necessary evil in order to control the ruck but for mine it’s awful to watch and just compounds our problems.

I love Jake and his passion for the club, and hope he gets to be captain one day but it’s hard to deny he is grossly overpaid at this point in his career. We need to take a good fraction off that salary and move him into a different role where he isn’t getting gassed playing 80 minutes, taking an eternity to get off tackled players and offering zero in attack
Sadly Very fair...
 

maxta

First Grader
Premium Member
I feel as though there’s this notion that everything that happens throughout a game is down to desire; things like line speed and missing tackles.

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

When you’re down on middles already, and you lose another 4 minutes into the game, it’s going to impact on many things throughout the game. Like struggling for field position because you’ve got 4-5th string forwards on the field. The Rooster controlled the middle and things started turning against us.

The best example I can think of is Koula’s miss on Smith. We’d just defended our backsides off for multiple sets and were clearly gassing. Then we go for a wide shift and lose the ball on half way and the Roosters were attacking again. From that set, Koula had nothing left in the tank and Smith scored.

So it’s not a coaching problem and it’s not a Koula technique problem. It’s fatigue from not having the cattle in the middle to ‘go’ with the opposition.

We need some serious middles or we are going nowhere. We probably needed better middles before our injuries but we need them even more now that the average ones have gone down.

It’s middles and a genuine 9 or bust for us. We’ve got the backs and we’ve got a smart coach but we lose the middle just about every week.
Agree wholehearedly with everything you say in relation to the middle effecting the entire defensive line and in fact, having a big adverse effect out wide leading to extra fatigue and getting worn down across the park once your ruck area is comprimised which is a guarantee missing 3 key front rowers.
As for Koula defensively, very rarely does he get square, seems to want to tackle from the side and use his speed to give them an ally outside and is often beaten badly.
No doubt there was fatigue involved in some cases including last night, but I have seen this on many occasions when fresh but still young and agree once the central area is rectified, will help immensly.
 

Darknstormy

Reserve Grader
The problem seems to be the players or managers take advantage of the club…there are many players that are overpaid leaving no room to have a balanced squad

Trbo -200k is injured more than plays
Jake -200k great club man and defender useless in attack
Dce -200k has always been overpaid for what he offers
Schuster -200k not worth his hype
Koula - 100k a long way to go
Olakuatu- 100k inconsistent
Aloiaia -200k useless and injured a lot
Saab -100k major defensive liability

Just there is 1.3m that could secure 2 solid players

Until we have owners that are strong in business and won’t give in to being held ransom then this will never change
 

The Who

Journey Man
Just a few games left and moving forward, it's obvious we need changes if we want to see Manly a legitimate NRL Contender.
Opinions will vary and I'm cool with that, in fact I want to see other Silvertail perspectives....

POSITIVES -

  • DCE has been in great form all season, though last night on attack should have taken control of 6th tackle options, but tried hard which showed with some great defence.
  • Big Oka is a Beast and done Massive plays in Most games, also plays wih aggression.
  • Paseka before injury had his best season and was starting to use his big frame physically.
  • Garrick is a goer, but needs to play wing/centre - big improver in an ordinary side.
  • The signing of Brooks is Super news imo and will be a fan favourite in 2024, will add much spark we currently lack.

NEGATIVES -

  • Clear Winner = Tom injured again !!!!
  • So slow around the ruck in Attack and Defence, the word "Lethargic" comes to mind.
  • Zero spark or threat from dummy half.
  • Lack of cohesion with the ball, like strangers thrown together who don't know each other.
  • Schu great "Potential" but what's that if not used, needs to cop a few bruises and take on the line and improve defence also, the flashy moves from U16's are low percentage and looks unmotivated for a young bloke on BIG $$$
  • Jake is "The Best" tackler in the NRL and a decent link man and I like the bloke, but his $950,000 a season is crazy, I mean Cam Murray is on the same money, Yeo and Carrigan on way less...then theres a value buy like Hopgood at $300,000.
  • Koula is such an attacking threat in attack, but his defence is way off, he does not get square in defence and gets brushed away far too regularly due to his positioning including 2 poor misses that led to Roosters tries and always many line breaks directly through him and being so young, needs to get this right to become a Quality "all round" centre.
  • Tuilagi has been ordinary - makes 2 good runs (Wow) and misses a stack of tackles and grabs at players half hearted, I'd have him in Blacktown with his efforts, as his attitude seems a 3 out of 10.
  • Parker is honourable and full of effort but would not make ANY other team imo.
  • Many other 'ordinary' players past season or 3 who need to be waved goodbye.

Keen to hear other Silvertail opinions on how to improve in 2024, as this is becoming a frustrating side to watch and growing up win, lose or draw the Seaeagles were always fun to watch and almost always "Had a Go"
That is a brilliant summation.
You mentioned Jurbo, a club legend, but I have been very disappointed with him in recent matches. He has become a totally one-dimentional player; a great and fearless defender but a waste in attack. Is he being coached to die with the ball? He doesn't try to break the line, just submits. I can only think he is trying to get a quick play-the-ball. He should play prop and stay out of the way when we have the ball. It's a shame to see him become such a plodder and a penalty magnet.
It’s the problem that the bottom 8 (9) teams all face, players love their $$$$ so they’ll only go to a bottom side for big money ( Api K at the Tigers a great example ).

And we can’t pay every player a million dollars ( and not get done for cheating ).

So it’s a massive quandary isn’t it , we need better players to improve but we can’t afford them.

And without improving, we also aren’t seen as an attractive destination.

Say you get offered $600k to play for Manly or $550 to play for the Storm, I know where I’d go currently.

So that then means we have to pay $750k for a $550k player , and more than likely offer him 3 years not 2.

And we currently don’t have the junior feed that say the Panthers have.

Nor do we have the extensive 3rd party payment network of say the Roosters or the Broncos.

So whilst I realise your comment is a throw away one , we are in all likelihood, stuck buying mediocre players and hoping they’ll turn into good ones.
 

The Who

Journey Man
It’s the problem that the bottom 8 (9) teams all face, players love their $$$$ so they’ll only go to a bottom side for big money ( Api K at the Tigers a great example ).

And we can’t pay every player a million dollars ( and not get done for cheating ).

So it’s a massive quandary isn’t it , we need better players to improve but we can’t afford them.

And without improving, we also aren’t seen as an attractive destination.

Say you get offered $600k to play for Manly or $550 to play for the Storm, I know where I’d go currently.

So that then means we have to pay $750k for a $550k player , and more than likely offer him 3 years not 2.

And we currently don’t have the junior feed that say the Panthers have.

Nor do we have the extensive 3rd party payment network of say the Roosters or the Broncos.

So whilst I realise your comment is a throw away one , we are in all likelihood, stuck buying mediocre players and hoping they’ll turn into good ones.
Well, we could try the old-fashioned method of promoting from within.
However, our decision-makers seem to have the opposite mindset: develop a young player up until the stage he is an attractive target for other clubs then allow him to leave. We must have lost 5-6 players from our successful junior teams like this over the past two years. Compounding this attitude we recruit lemons from clubs even worse than ours.
 

Eagle thru 'n' thru

Reserve Grader
Too many big forwards. Sipley at 120kg, Woods at 111kg (plus the rest), Paseka at 120kgs, Lodge at 117kg, Keppie 110, Bullemor at 110kg and Olakau'atu at 113kg's. Considering the Riff has three forwards at/over 110kg, Eisenhuth 111kgs (not a regular in the 17), Eddie Blacker at 115kg (not a regular in the 17) and Leniu at 110kgs.
Every Riff forward bar Leniu are under 110kgs.
The only big forwards I'd use would be Paseka and Olakau'atu. Propbably would've resigned Lodge for 2024, but since his ACL is stuffed not anymore. Get rid of Woods, Sipley, Boyle, Tuilagi Keppie. Keep Bullemor, Condon and Matterson. Move Schuster to 2nd/bench. Buy smaller forwards as Brodie Jones, Luke Garner and Luke Thompson.

In the language of a YART;
8. Luke Thompson
9. Croker
10. Jurbo
11. Olakau'atu
12. Brodie Jones
13. Ben Trbojevic

14. GCKT
15. Luke Garner/Schuster
16. Bullemor
17. Paseka
 
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