How to cheer for d***heads

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I will always support the club. To me, the players (and the coaches) have always been secondary to the club. As long as the club remains in Manly, I will remain a rusted-on MWSE supporter.

I haven't been able to support a number of our players over the years individually. This isn't just a recent phenomenon. We have had multiple players over that time (53 years) that have regularly behaved like dickheads. As long as they turn up every game and do their job, I will support the club's decision to sign them and play them.

Go Manly.
 
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Exceptionally well written, and the conundrum many would be facing.

I’m not nearly as “ invested “ in the team as I once was and this is due to very few of them being “ Manly men “.

Most are just journeymen , in it for the $$$, or despite being taken care of by the club in their junior years they’ll jump ship for a few more $$$ without compunction.

So with this in mind do I really give a **** what they do off field ,or might have done ( what can you believe these days ) or what they’ve done well in the past!!

The answer is NO.

They aren’t my circle of friends , I don’t know them other than on the field and have no interest in meeting them socially.

I haven’t been to a “ meet the players” function for a decade and have zero interest in doing so.

Why ??

Easy, players like Eadie , Randall, Fulton were my heroes.

The current players, bar just a few , are just mercenaries.

That’s how I handle it @SeaEagleRock8
Each season that goes by I head more in this direction too.
 
Great, thought provoking post @SeaEagleRock8.

With these days of virtue-signalling it can kind of blur the lines of what societal norms currently are in my opinion.

Interesting that some players are marked for life and others are held up as redemption stories.
Some get churned/banished and others find a seat in the last chance saloon (sometimes more than once) and get on with life.
Also happens in the greater society too but we just don't see or hear about it as much because most people's lives aren't broadcast 7 days a week for 9 months of the year, we see the occasional banker or real estate agent being made an example of for a day or two then it's forgotten.

Some, like Snake, have to live despite a baseless allegation and not guilty verdict with a smear over his name - I've got mates that still call him a r@pist.
Others like DeBelin who most think was morally reprehensible but found not guilty in court was talked about as a possible SOO candidate and team captain this year and seems to have just gone about his business without a blip - do Dragons fans actively demonstrate their displeasure at him at games?

Pearce and Carney were banished, not for doing anything illegal but ultimately it's the repeated stupid stuff they do on the grog that got them into trouble - both in places that were meant to be private - eventually someone filmed it and the media thought it was in our best interests to see it.
Harmless stuff really, but it let's outrage be outraged.

I remember with the Cronulla group sex story from years ago, Brian Smith saying that we expect our players to push the limits of aggression, bravery etc on the field - ie high risk behaviour - yet off the field we expect them to just be "normal".
It's hard to step away from that if that's your job and your life, what's normal to most isn't normal to large groups of others and vice versa.

I've always lived by the way of we don't know what's gone on in people's lives to make them the way they are or were - nature v nurture? - but we can take them as we find them now whilst being aware of their past.

I may think someone is a right d!ckhead yet you may not and that's why society is the way it is, if we all thought the same way it'd be a pretty boring world.

To be honest I'm a bit on the fence with the Lodge signing but as long as he rips in for Manly and I don't hear about him on his days off then I'll see how it goes.
 
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AFB and Dylan Walker both had serious off field indiscretions and yet we'd kill to still have them in our side, the Warriors are benefitting massively from each of them this year in areas we are seriously struggling in. I don't feel too strongly either way about Lodge but the fact he's now on his 4th club in 3 years is probably more concerning to me than what happened 8 years ago when he was 20. If he can knuckle down and give us a good couple of years I think we can get behind him, any improvement on the current crop in performance alone can only be a good thing
 
Good post.
I scream and swear for the jersey and the club not players.
I've mentioned a few times on this forum my family's friendships with past players and associations with the club(also in the past)
I have knowledge of incidents and behaviours from decades ago of some of our most beloved players.
Most of which would disappoint the average supporter.
This kind of behaviour including drug use has been rampant in the ARL/NRL for 4 decades to my knowledge.
Unfortunately these days things get exposed due to social media and a woke society.
Back in the day poor behaviour was generally handled by senior players, and many a smack in the mouth were dealt on the training paddock or change room.
 
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Found this online…..
 
Very interesting post SER8 and pretty much hits my issues with Manly post-rainbow gate on the head…

Cheering for a team that I love versus cheering for a bunch of guys that I (largely) do not respect…

My off-season ideas about transferring my support to the dolphins did not survive Round 1 - yet I am not nearly as passionate for Manly during games anymore (probably good for my health really)…

I still cannot miss watching a game but I sort of watch in a stunned silence with the occasional “what the hell was that” or “what a load of crap” (generally ref related)…

Some of it is attributable to changes in the game, some of it is attributable to poor referee stock, it is likely partially related to diminished hope of success…

But a LOT of it is attributable to putting so much emotion into last season only to be robbed of any chance of success when a large part of my team refused to play and, resultantly, my feelings towards those players - who are likely to remain in the side for years to come…

I have tried to “get over it” but I just cant… so, in summary, F*CKED IF I KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.

Thanks, SER8… do I pay the receptionist on the way out?
 
Each season that goes by I head more in this direction too.
It’s sad really

It’s not just our club , it’s the game as a whole.

I used to watch most games , now only Manly and occasionally I’ll flick on another if it’s say “ team 1 v team 2”

SOO, used to love it , just not invested in it these days , just a money making excercise that ****s up the competition.

I’m approaching 70 so I’m not giving the game up as I’ve been a lifelong fan BUT I don’t get anywhere near as involved as I used to.

Which means I don’t really give a **** what players do off field , if they are deemed to be ok to play by the NRL & my club , then it’s “ game on “.
 
How to cheer for dickheads.

I started writing this last year, but on the eve of this particular Team List Tuesday it seems topical, so I was moved to dig it out and I just finished it off now.

There’s a modern phenomenon which wasn’t really a factor way back when I was a kid and first became aware of sport stars, and began following Manly in rugby league: nowadays, players’ character is almost as widely reported as their on-field results. And under this close examination many of them don’t come up smelling of roses.

Not just in footy of course. Scandals led to the resignation of the last two Australian Test cricket captains. Tennis champion Djokovich caught lying. Golfers accepting millions in so-called Saudi sportswash money. Swimmers and cyclists using PEDs. Sports stars caught for domestic violence, drug abuse. Child abuse! You name it.

As a kid I saw the odd newspaper or Rugby League Week photo of Manly’s rivals, and to me they looked like dangerous, scary thugs. So the Manly players who went out to face them each week, and stood up to them, must by definition have been the good guys. Heroes! Bravely fighting for honour and decency. I wasn’t totally naïve as a child, but it was all too easy for my imagination to fill in those blanks.

Contrast that with the information flood in today’s world. It must be almost impossible for modern kids to form those naïve fantasies. And what about for grown-up fans - is it a different sort of support we offer? When we know some of our favourite sports stars are people we may prefer to avoid meeting.

I think it is different. It’s a little more arm’s length, a little more qualified, a more conditional support.

Perhaps oddly, I don’t find this an entirely negative development. If the glossy image of the chiselled athlete bravely engaging in sporting battle for noble purpose is in large part exposed as a fiction… well, exposing fictions isn’t a bad thing, surely! It’s pretty bloody hard nowadays to imagine the sporting contest as good v evil. Or even as the good guys (my team) v the bad guys. Or even a good town or suburb, because now our players come from all over.

Professional sport is increasingly in plain view. An entertainment industry. All about big business making a lot of profit by selling things. Sure, it provides us with a captivating diversion. A necessary distraction from our 5-day grind. So the wheels of industry can roll on and on, and even bigger businesses can carry on making even greater profits.

And as the sport industry is progressively exposed, so too are its individuals. The players in professional sport are increasingly revealed in all their human frailty. Not always the wisest, not the noblest, not the fairest, nor even the best-intentioned.

And loyalty? In NRL we have players hopping between clubs - even mid-season – and this shines quite a different light on their level of allegiance to the cause. Of course, they need to make a living, we cannot begrudge them that. And for many, commitment to their current team is but one small consideration, especially for those on the fringes of stardom. All up, nowadays we are getting a much fuller picture of who they are – and turns out they’re just as flawed as we are! Possibly even worse, because the single-mindedness, the aggression, and ruthlessness they require to succeed in NRL won't always be positive traits outside the game.

However, there is another side of this coin. Knowing more about the players personal lives means we are also more aware of the sacrifices they make to attain the elite level. In NRL, for example, the strict diets and lifestyle restrictions. The routine off-season surgeries. The gruesome injuries (replayed on TV from different angles in super slo-mo). The protruding bones. The fits and convulsions as the body of an unconscious player shudders somewhere between life and death. The crushed larynx, the broken neck. It’s all there for our information and entertainment. Not to mention, getting to read all about the hardships players are put through during preseason. To toughen them physically, but also mentally. And we get to see interviews with players talking about the emotional stress that can come with long term injuries, or the loneliness of being away from the squad when stuck for months in a rehab program. And we are learning - at the same pace as players - more and more about the risks of premature dementia as a possible consequence of concussive injuries that are common for those playing the game. We see the mental health of players laid bare when they post disclosing how they shed tears after receiving via social media torrents of less-than-enthusiastic-endorsement of their performance on the field that day, in other words, full-on abuse.

As a fan my support feels quite different now than it was even 15 or 20 years ago. I still want Manly to win every week, that cannot change. But something has changed.

In decades gone I was blissfully ignorant of the personal situation of those players. They wore the Manly jumper, they played rugby league, so they must be pretty good guys. After all, since childhood I’d believed that Manly was morally good because they stood up to and overcame those thugs of Souths, deadbeats of Parramatta, and hooligans of Wests.

Nowadays, though, I’m forced to confront the reality. One of our recent stars had a conviction for kicking his pregnant wife in the stomach. Another budding star, for whom I had wildly cheered, sits languishing in jail for stabbing a man in the back. From the sickening to the embarrassing, an iconic club legend and Churchill medalist publicly espousing crazy sovereign citizen beliefs. What on earth!!

So there is one part of it - the increased visibility of our high-profile sports people. Back in the day the sports journos were good at protecting the clubs by keeping player indiscretions and humiliations out of the news. Nowadays it is inevitable that the gruesome or bizarre stories will come out, so the journos actually have to race each other to be the first to publish.

But there is another part, too, which is simply that societal values continue to change over time.

Joey Johns had to resign from an Origin camp over the sort of racial slur that had been commonplace for decades, not just in rugby league but generally in the wider community. AFB’s referee abuse was considered far more serious because he used the word “retard”. Public awareness around things such as domestic violence and drink driving have undergone massive shifts over time. Last year we had a chunk of our squad unable to bring themselves to even take the field because the jersey represented acceptance of homosexuals. When before, in the entire history of the game, has that issue ever been something about which players had to disclose their attitudes? In fact, for most of the time rugby league has existed it was probably assumed by most that everyone in the change room hated gays. Suddenly in 2023 admitting to that is controversial in the extreme.

So to now - as fans of a sport like rugby league we’re left with a direct and quite uncomfortable question: how to cheer for dickheads? Obviously not all players are dickheads. But, as we know, all too explicitly nowadays, they aren’t comic book heroes either, they are human - so it’s fair to expect there’s a little dickhead in most, and in some there is a level of dickheadedness impossible to ignore.

As I hinted at the beginning, Manly’s signing of Mathew Lodge this week has been the impetus for me digging out this piece, and when I did, I realised … I hadn’t finished it. And my answer to the question is, still: I don’t know. I still want to cheer for my team, in fact deciding not to care about the team’s fortunes is not even an option for me. So I’ll care. And no doubt watch games on TV, or replays. But go to a game? I don’t know. Will I support more quietly? Less proudly? And let’s face it, the club is not even the same entity it was years ago when I first became a fan, and neither is the game. Professionalism, private ownership, it’s a business, a media product used for promotion of gambling and alcohol.

But yet, the athletes are outstanding, and brave. And those colours have such a history!

So, how to cheer for dickheads? Any ideas welcome, as I'm stumped.
Not sure about dick heads but
Stay in your crease to avoid being stumped
 
I’m approaching 70 so I’m not giving the game up as I’ve been a lifelong fan BUT I don’t get anywhere near as involved as I used to.
Hey Mark , you sound active and well and I hope you are as well as you sound feathered friend

I hear that you are approaching 70 and Maybe you can Invite all of us Manly Silvertails to your Joint so we can all have a few joints and beers and we can all talk about the GreaT Manly Grand final Winning days
Dont worry it will be bring your own .
You can just supply the dancing girls
Thanks mate x
 
Hey Mark , you sound active and well and I hope you are as well as you sound feathered friend

I hear that you are approaching 70 and Maybe you can Invite all of us Manly Silvertails to your Joint so we can all have a few joints and beers and we can all talk about the GreaT Manly Grand final Winning days
Dont worry it will be bring your own .
You can just supply the dancing girls
Thanks mate x
View attachment 24434
Those were the days

Yes all good , officially “ in remission “ , we’ll at least for the next 12 months !!

Took me two years to get there and a LOT of **** in between but I’m there.
 
I found the lodge signing concerning, but more from a club leadership perspective ( the price of winning vs integrity).

In regards for cheering for d heads I very rarely cheer for individual players unless they somehow appeal to me, say like Jake or Tom, Brad Parker, Stewart brothers,beaver, Toovey etc. when on the field I guess the individual aspect disappears to afford for the team in spirit of competition. In short if Lodge scores a try for the team, I will be happy but happy for Manly not the individual. This is a distinction I find easy to make. In saying this if the team was mainly comprised of lodge type players I could I guess switch away from the team completely even after 40 years of supporting them. I hope this day never comes.
 
Pretty weird how everyone just assumed Fainu was innocent and were more than happy to blindly back him but no one is willing to give Lodge the time of day.
Yea they have been screaming on here blowing the wind up the skirts of Walker, fainu and the like. Where are they now. ???? I said this 4 or so years ago. People on here sticking up for dickheads who are apart of the reason why we are where we are. I have said it before and will say it again. We need good people rather than rev heads. It’s a no brainer. You can’t educate an idiot.Oh wait a minute it’s been DCE all along. Sarcasm intended
 
Very well written piece, and an excellent thread all round (not just for the original post, but also for the respect and thought gone in to the responses thus far).

I have often butted heads with people on here about this topic - mainly because I am in the vast minority in my basic views:

I would rather support a 'manly team' that dwells in mediocrity, but represents the people/supporters/community well, than to have the best players/mercenaries/win the comp and be know as a bunch of di&kheads

My support of Manly is not about winning - it is about pride in what I believe our club represents (the community of the northern beaches, and those associated with it in its many ways regardless of geographical location)

I cheered loudest when Walker was given the boot, and I would never want him back.

People make mistakes. Some made their mistakes BEFORE they joined our club, some made their mistakes whilst at our club, and some make their mistakes long after they leave. There are a great many 'heroes' in rugby league that (only after retirement) turn out to have been cheats, or thiefs, or drug runners, or chronic gamblers, or (insert bad stuff here). Not to pick on kiwis - but I am sure that Manu Vatuvei and Chris Cairns were LOVED by their teams supporters in blissful ignorance that one day in future they would do some bad stuff....

people make mistakes - and I think I have essentially resolved in my head that i CAN cheer for a di&khead if that di&khead clearly shows that they are making up for past mistakes, or are trying to improve their ways.

Not sure where Lodge sits on that spectrum. Not sure about Aloiai either.
 
How to cheer for dickheads.

I started writing this last year, but on the eve of this particular Team List Tuesday it seems topical, so I was moved to dig it out and I just finished it off now.

There’s a modern phenomenon which wasn’t really a factor way back when I was a kid and first became aware of sport stars, and began following Manly in rugby league: nowadays, players’ character is almost as widely reported as their on-field results. And under this close examination many of them don’t come up smelling of roses.

Not just in footy of course. Scandals led to the resignation of the last two Australian Test cricket captains. Tennis champion Djokovich caught lying. Golfers accepting millions in so-called Saudi sportswash money. Swimmers and cyclists using PEDs. Sports stars caught for domestic violence, drug abuse. Child abuse! You name it.

As a kid I saw the odd newspaper or Rugby League Week photo of Manly’s rivals, and to me they looked like dangerous, scary thugs. So the Manly players who went out to face them each week, and stood up to them, must by definition have been the good guys. Heroes! Bravely fighting for honour and decency. I wasn’t totally naïve as a child, but it was all too easy for my imagination to fill in those blanks.

Contrast that with the information flood in today’s world. It must be almost impossible for modern kids to form those naïve fantasies. And what about for grown-up fans - is it a different sort of support we offer? When we know some of our favourite sports stars are people we may prefer to avoid meeting.

I think it is different. It’s a little more arm’s length, a little more qualified, a more conditional support.

Perhaps oddly, I don’t find this an entirely negative development. If the glossy image of the chiselled athlete bravely engaging in sporting battle for noble purpose is in large part exposed as a fiction… well, exposing fictions isn’t a bad thing, surely! It’s pretty bloody hard nowadays to imagine the sporting contest as good v evil. Or even as the good guys (my team) v the bad guys. Or even a good town or suburb, because now our players come from all over.

Professional sport is increasingly in plain view. An entertainment industry. All about big business making a lot of profit by selling things. Sure, it provides us with a captivating diversion. A necessary distraction from our 5-day grind. So the wheels of industry can roll on and on, and even bigger businesses can carry on making even greater profits.

And as the sport industry is progressively exposed, so too are its individuals. The players in professional sport are increasingly revealed in all their human frailty. Not always the wisest, not the noblest, not the fairest, nor even the best-intentioned.

And loyalty? In NRL we have players hopping between clubs - even mid-season – and this shines quite a different light on their level of allegiance to the cause. Of course, they need to make a living, we cannot begrudge them that. And for many, commitment to their current team is but one small consideration, especially for those on the fringes of stardom. All up, nowadays we are getting a much fuller picture of who they are – and turns out they’re just as flawed as we are! Possibly even worse, because the single-mindedness, the aggression, and ruthlessness they require to succeed in NRL won't always be positive traits outside the game.

However, there is another side of this coin. Knowing more about the players personal lives means we are also more aware of the sacrifices they make to attain the elite level. In NRL, for example, the strict diets and lifestyle restrictions. The routine off-season surgeries. The gruesome injuries (replayed on TV from different angles in super slo-mo). The protruding bones. The fits and convulsions as the body of an unconscious player shudders somewhere between life and death. The crushed larynx, the broken neck. It’s all there for our information and entertainment. Not to mention, getting to read all about the hardships players are put through during preseason. To toughen them physically, but also mentally. And we get to see interviews with players talking about the emotional stress that can come with long term injuries, or the loneliness of being away from the squad when stuck for months in a rehab program. And we are learning - at the same pace as players - more and more about the risks of premature dementia as a possible consequence of concussive injuries that are common for those playing the game. We see the mental health of players laid bare when they post disclosing how they shed tears after receiving via social media torrents of less-than-enthusiastic-endorsement of their performance on the field that day, in other words, full-on abuse.

As a fan my support feels quite different now than it was even 15 or 20 years ago. I still want Manly to win every week, that cannot change. But something has changed.

In decades gone I was blissfully ignorant of the personal situation of those players. They wore the Manly jumper, they played rugby league, so they must be pretty good guys. After all, since childhood I’d believed that Manly was morally good because they stood up to and overcame those thugs of Souths, deadbeats of Parramatta, and hooligans of Wests.

Nowadays, though, I’m forced to confront the reality. One of our recent stars had a conviction for kicking his pregnant wife in the stomach. Another budding star, for whom I had wildly cheered, sits languishing in jail for stabbing a man in the back. From the sickening to the embarrassing, an iconic club legend and Churchill medalist publicly espousing crazy sovereign citizen beliefs. What on earth!!

So there is one part of it - the increased visibility of our high-profile sports people. Back in the day the sports journos were good at protecting the clubs by keeping player indiscretions and humiliations out of the news. Nowadays it is inevitable that the gruesome or bizarre stories will come out, so the journos actually have to race each other to be the first to publish.

But there is another part, too, which is simply that societal values continue to change over time.

Joey Johns had to resign from an Origin camp over the sort of racial slur that had been commonplace for decades, not just in rugby league but generally in the wider community. AFB’s referee abuse was considered far more serious because he used the word “retard”. Public awareness around things such as domestic violence and drink driving have undergone massive shifts over time. Last year we had a chunk of our squad unable to bring themselves to even take the field because the jersey represented acceptance of homosexuals. When before, in the entire history of the game, has that issue ever been something about which players had to disclose their attitudes? In fact, for most of the time rugby league has existed it was probably assumed by most that everyone in the change room hated gays. Suddenly in 2023 admitting to that is controversial in the extreme.

So to now - as fans of a sport like rugby league we’re left with a direct and quite uncomfortable question: how to cheer for dickheads? Obviously not all players are dickheads. But, as we know, all too explicitly nowadays, they aren’t comic book heroes either, they are human - so it’s fair to expect there’s a little dickhead in most, and in some there is a level of dickheadedness impossible to ignore.

As I hinted at the beginning, Manly’s signing of Mathew Lodge this week has been the impetus for me digging out this piece, and when I did, I realised … I hadn’t finished it. And my answer to the question is, still: I don’t know. I still want to cheer for my team, in fact deciding not to care about the team’s fortunes is not even an option for me. So I’ll care. And no doubt watch games on TV, or replays. But go to a game? I don’t know. Will I support more quietly? Less proudly? And let’s face it, the club is not even the same entity it was years ago when I first became a fan, and neither is the game. Professionalism, private ownership, it’s a business, a media product used for promotion of gambling and alcohol.

But yet, the athletes are outstanding, and brave. And those colours have such a history!

So, how to cheer for dickheads? Any ideas welcome, as I'm stumped.
It is an interesting one, nice post @SeaEagleRock8. I think everyone has covered the question off pretty well so I won't pretend to add anything profound. But like a lot of ST folk, I started very young (8) as a Manly supporter and am now in my 60s. I did not grow up in the area (Fairfield) so there was no "tribal" reason to support them. But support the Club I did and it's been that way through thick and thin, through great players and not so great players, great coaches and not so great coaches, great administrators and ........

And there has been the fair share of dickheads in that time. But it remains the Club that I'm attached to, the collective you might say rather than the individual. And having slowly gravitated towards Brookie over the years, I'm glad to see the Club gets involved in community and related support. It's what a Club with some local influence should do. And as long as that continues, it's the Club that I'll support and hope that the odd dickhead either demonstrates a commitment to being part of that or moves on pretty quickly.

As far as how do you cheer for someone that you might consider a dickhead? When it comes down to it, it is all very subjective really. As some have mentioned, it can be a reflection of what societal norms are at the time. But I also like to think of there being a "scale of dickheadedness". That is, I consider Moses a dickhead coz of the way he carries on on the field. But it's low on my dickhead scale relative to someone that is constantly getting suspended for stupidly aggressive head highs and the like. You know, the grub. And then you move to the top of scale with issues we've been discussing with Lodge where there are clearly illegal events and damage to people outside of footy. And before anyone jumps on me about second chances, he absolutely deserves to have that incident put behind him given his age and alcohol level at the time (But that doesn't mean I condone it in any way!!). But unfortunately, the issues around his club changes are a real worry so time will tell whether he really is just a dickhead and this is a big mistake. Consequently, he is currently hovering between the middle and top of my "dickheadedness scale". Or another example would be Manase. When he first got busted for the nude images of the woman, he spiked on my dickhead scale. However, I was willing to cut him slack, again coz he was young and stupid. And well, you can imagine what he subsequently did to my scale.

And I played a lot of footy (at park level) and I played with a few dickheads in that time. But it was the Club (and most of the fellas) that I loved and supported. And so, for me it will always be the Club that I cheer for and I can only trust that players that are brought in to the Club bring with them a level of decency that doesn't make me ashamed to be a supporter.

Last year really tested my shame level but the effort that was put in by the players that DID turn up against the Roosters plus the crowd that turned up to support them, got me through that period.

Long may it continue to be.
 
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