How do we fix Manly's edges.

[bob dylan]

Kelly is a fine attacking player but he has defensive weaknesses.

He pulled off a couple of nice shots yesterday. But yes can be a bit 50/50

 

[Top End Eagle]

It's just that we seemed to have a policy of select a few good juniors from a region that's not where they live or go to school, make them the stars in the local junior reps so they upset the local kids who dream to play for the area who for better or worse whatever reason life gives or throws at you, are playing in the area, and then there's going to be a sense of 'great we get these guys' but also 'well duck James actually tries harder works harder knows more wants it more just didn't hit the genetic lottery that allows him to throw kids his own age group around like toddlers yet' but James might get better if he doesn't give the game away, or if he's given a full ride to Riverview with tutors and a chance to develop. The system is broken. And stupid teams are stacking their teams with pasifika players trying to catch up to an outdated trend. And this isn't racial it's part of a trend introduced by elite Rugby schools in Australia that league tried to piggy back on.

It's been an issue for years and surely it's been identified as a problem area, so it's a worry that nobody has been able to fix it. But rugby league ain't rocket science, and it just can't be as hard as we make it look.

Before we even start thinking about defensive systems and adjustments in specific situations and areas of the field, we need to address the basics. Number one rule of rugby league: hang onto the ****ing ball. If you hold onto the ball, you're not defending, and the less time you spend defending, the less vulnerable you'll be. Our ball security, in attack and defence, is woeful. It's almost like we want to defend, just so we can show everybody how bad we are at it.

Second rule, win the middle. As 47MVEagle says above, if you lose the ruck, your edges are exposed. Our centres and wingers always cop the blame, but the problems start at the beginning of every defensive set. We rarely play with enough aggression and intent in defence, and are always on the back foot.

Once you're doing the basics right, you can work on counting numbers and staying on your man, compressing the line when you need to (attacking with your defence in the opposition half) and systems for goal-line defence. But really, our players should know all of this already. The real question is why they're not able to do it during a game.

Very much Wayne Bennett philosophy. God help us when he wants to prove a point against Seibold.

 

[Top End Eagle]

What’s Koula done wrong???

Nothing he is pure class and thankfully the media have focussed on how fast he is and not how incredibly rugby league smart the kid is.

 

[Top End Eagle]

He’s done pretty well in defence but yeah a little more time maybe to fix it!

Disagree one thousand percent. Has had Tuipolotu outside him. Let he and Saab jel for at least six games and they will be good. That's not our issue.

 

[Rafferty]

It’s no single thing, listening to Tallis last night talking about Bennett and his approach, probably nails it best for me, Gordie said Bennet’s approach was to keep it as simple as possible (not sure that’s Seibs approach) hit it up 1,2,3,4 kick and defend, defend, defend, pretty much sums up the fins.

Has to start with having players that have the right attitude and commitment ( ours seems really poor) getting them fit ( I highly doubt we are, we fade out of games and struggle to compete, it’s so visually easy to see how far behind some of the fitter sides we are) committing to the task ( we are mentally inept and struggle to understand how to play for each other and stay in the contest for 80 mins, which could be partially connected to our fitness) I‘m not sure we know what team works is and what working for the player beside you means.

 

[The Who]

Q: How do we fix Manly's edges?
A: Reduce the width of the field.

 

[Top End Eagle]

I liked Kelly. I think he waa great. He's doing well at the Titans.

Yes he was very good at Manly and is playing well at the Titans. You have to be conscious of what you are buying. Dylan Walker is looking pretty good at the warriors too when not made to play on a busted leg every week. I reckon he'd be a pretty handy centre or five eighth replacement if a certain coach didn't pound him into the ground every week

 

[Top End Eagle]

Q: How do we fix Manly's edges?
A: Reduce the width of the field.

B. Stop playing Tuipolotu and Garrick

C. Give the stand up comedy reins to anyone with a Toe Rogan podcast membership. You're clearly posessed of violent DNA.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Lose the ruck in the middle & your edges are exposed.

Amen

 

[LeonardCohen]

It’s no single thing, listening to Tallis last night talking about Bennett and his approach, probably nails it best for me, Gordie said Bennet’s approach was to keep it as simple as possible (not sure that’s Seibs approach) hit it up 1,2,3,4 kick and defend, defend, defend, pretty much sums up the fins.

Has to start with having players that have the right attitude and commitment ( ours seems really poor) getting them fit ( I highly doubt we are, we fade out of games and struggle to compete, it’s so visually easy to see how far behind some of the fitter sides we are) committing to the task ( we are mentally inept and struggle to understand how to play for each other and stay in the contest for 80 mins, which could be partially connected to our fitness) I‘m not sure we know what team works is and what working for the player beside you means.

It works for Bennett because he has a very experienced no nonsense forward pack and they turn up week in week out with the attitude to work hard.

Our pack is garbage.

But agree that it’s a simple game. Bennett’s teams win because they do all the fundamentals well and rip in. We have shown We can do it on the odd occasion but our players don’t have the hard edge to do it every week. We don’t seem a very motivated and passionate bunch…there appears to be a lot of apathy about competing.

 

[WiseyEagle]

probably need forwards to stop dropping balls and make some decent yardage would be a start

 

[Top End Eagle]

It works for Bennett because he has a very experienced no nonsense forward pack and they turn up week in week out with the attitude to work hard.

Our pack is garbage.

But agree that it’s a simple game. Bennett’s teams win because they do all the fundamentals well and rip in. We have shown We can do it on the odd occasion but our players don’t have the hard edge to do it every week. We don’t seem a very motivated and passionate bunch…there appears to be a lot of apathy about competing.

Does this Manly team only have it in them once in a blue moon. I worry that when they get carried away and hit hard and defend with intensity there isn't enough 'not sure what word I'm after here, gumption!' to maintain it week upon week.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Does this Manly team only have it in them once in a blue moon. I worry that when they get carried away and hit hard and defend with intensity there isn't enough 'not sure what word I'm after here, gumption!' to maintain it week upon week.

Spot on and this is the problem with seeing matches like our performance against Melbourne as a marker for where we are at.

Take the Tigers as an example…they beat Penrith two weeks ago but I think the majority of the rugby league community see that win as an anomaly and very few would be of the belief that the Tigers are now rubbing shoulders with the premiership heavyweights…the betting market was hardly scrambling to install them as a premiership threat.

Yet, we win one game (Melbourne) and our supporters are of the belief that we are suddenly a serious contender…suddenly all the duds are good enough…but they’re actually not good enough because consistency is part of being an elite player. We don’t have enough of them in the forward pack and our depth in the backs is thin. So we get the patchy performances…not because we aren’t switched on mentally and simply need to turn up with a better attitude, but because our squad is not made up of the good oil.

 

[Top End Eagle]

I might be wrong but I seem to recall when we played Melbourne we used much more of a sliding defence, rather than up-and-in. And from memory it worked really well. I recall one instance where they were attacking our line down the southern end and we simply slid across towards the sideline and Saab ended up bundling Coates into touch beautifully. Everyone trusted their inside man to make their tackle and/or slide across. Since then it seems we've reverted to up and in and it doesn't seem to be working. I'm not sure if that's a change of personnel issue or what???

That game was sublime. And it was all defence. But it was only that the storm stuffed up playing Munster at 1 without letting him loose that Manly won. Our forwards work twice as hard because they have a dummy half from 1996.

 

[DGD]

That game was sublime. And it was all defence. But it was only that the storm stuffed up playing Munster at 1 without letting him loose that Manly won. Our forwards work twice as hard because they have a dummy half from 1996.

Raymond Vaega played wing

 

[Deleted member 26876]

THe Melbourne game was the best example of how to fix this.
The contacts were hard and in numbers, controlling the tempo.
Every team will attack the edges and some succeed and some don't, but in general the teams with the most steel in the middle, then win time to easily cover shifts and 2nd man plays, those who allow quick play ball in the middle of the field will continue to be exposed and stripped for numbers out wide where the illusion appears it's the outside players poor decision, the rot generaly starts from the middle of the field.

That game was a perfect model for maintaining field position and putting the opposition off their game (i.e applying pressure in opposition 20, kick chase, physicality + numbers).

I don't know what the solution is to our backline defence though (other than confidence).

The only thing I noticed different about our edge defence against the storm was that the storm had no ball/field position to truly test them out (and were clunky too). Vaega had a lot of energy which was good. That led to a shut down play or two by rushing infield. But if the storm get more opportunities in that game then that probably becomes a weakness too.

It just looks like most of the players naturally watch the ball and forget to slide.

 

[LeonardCohen]

I might be wrong but I seem to recall when we played Melbourne we used much more of a sliding defence, rather than up-and-in. And from memory it worked really well. I recall one instance where they were attacking our line down the southern end and we simply slid across towards the sideline and Saab ended up bundling Coates into touch beautifully. Everyone trusted their inside man to make their tackle and/or slide across. Since then it seems we've reverted to up and in and it doesn't seem to be working. I'm not sure if that's a change of personnel issue or what???

What you saw in that Melbourne game is a byproduct of controlling the ruck in the middle. On the contrary, the ‘up and in’ approach is a system used when the defence is under assult…it’s akin to dialling 000; help!

The slide you saw against Melbourne is the defence functioning as intended…when you slow down the ruck, the defence sets and the markers and a and b defenders can work hard to cover space in the middle, freeing up the edge defenders to stay on their opposite number. As soon as you lose the ruck, the middle is exposed and everyone hits in to combat it.

Of course, you’re never gonna win every ruck and some teams are better at dialling 000 than others…we’re terrible at it but the problem can be managed somewhat by winning as many rucks as possible.

 

[grassy]

It's been an issue for years and surely it's been identified as a problem area, so it's a worry that nobody has been able to fix it. But rugby league ain't rocket science, and it just can't be as hard as we make it look.

Before we even start thinking about defensive systems and adjustments in specific situations and areas of the field, we need to address the basics. Number one rule of rugby league: hang onto the ****ing ball. If you hold onto the ball, you're not defending, and the less time you spend defending, the less vulnerable you'll be. Our ball security, in attack and defence, is woeful. It's almost like we want to defend, just so we can show everybody how bad we are at it.

Second rule, win the middle. As 47MVEagle says above, if you lose the ruck, your edges are exposed. Our centres and wingers always cop the blame, but the problems start at the beginning of every defensive set. We rarely play with enough aggression and intent in defence, and are always on the back foot.

Once you're doing the basics right, you can work on counting numbers and staying on your man, compressing the line when you need to (attacking with your defence in the opposition half) and systems for goal-line defence. But really, our players should know all of this already. The real question is why they're not able to do it during a game.

Yea it confuses me why we can’t fix this. Maybe the players need to sit down in front of a video of one of their losses and see what we are seeing. It makes me wonder if they have any idea of the way they are playing. Like you say it’s not rocket science. It would be something if we were a bit clinical but we are not. However I have seen us play with aggression but that gets overshadowed by dumb football. We are our own worst enemy. It would be great if we could respect the ball and realise the need for possession. Too much money maybe with zero appreciation. When players can not catch a simple ball it’s a mental problem because these guys have been playing the game long enough for the simple things to be second nature. No different to putting one foot in front of the other when walking. To get that wrong at this level is a definite mental issue. I am now of the belief that our players are sick of looking at one another.

 

[The Royal Soup]

Okay so even without Harper running up and looking like a headless chook there is no communication no confidence no trust on the edges in defence.

What is the solution? I don't understand it but I'm going to offer some solutions that may or may not be helpful, correct, insightful, but will hopefully add to or spark discussion.

What we know is;

Harper is a liability. Any team that knows they are up against him target him and he races up.

Saab is now our best winger, but doesn't trust Harper understandably. Koula and Saab are locks but need time 'in game' to build cohesion. It's a shame this hasn't happened.

Parker doesn't have the lateral movement anymore. Heart of a tiger but knees of a Wombat.

Garrick (stay as an almost rep quality winger and give up dreams of centre) has been shocking this year.

Tuipolotu, his head is so big it makes the rest of him look not as big as it actually is. Stop with the first up mid air sidestep and bring it back hard. And stop coming in off your wing. There's only one Horhay!

now for the controversial

you read and hear so much about players now days not watching a lot of football. They watch NFL or NBA or Tik Tok. Generally these players are from the urban areas and more often than not are from Pasifika backgrounds. Many of them have been to Rugby schools and been in academies and pathways from a very early age. They are identified as athletes and the money they can potentially bring in for their families and the lifestyle it can afford them is attractive I can see why they aren't 'footy heads'.

Are we getting players come through (in all clubs) who are just athletic chess pieces for a coach or half to move around. Who can't identify what's happening in a game because they haven't had thousands of hours of watching football to read plays on.

South Sydney seem an exception to me and again this will be controversial for those who want to read it that way but they are a team of pure footballers before athletes and you only have to look at their body types to see it. And they have a lot of indigenous connections and have recently been coached by the Master who announced his apprentice in Demetriou.

And Penrith prove what happens when you get a group of juniors come through who know and trust each other.

So who are the footy heads in our Manly team? Who were the ones that watched every game they possibly could and have that memory bank of where the ball is going to go or which kick the halfbacks going to put in from hours and hours of watching football, not just being told hit this spot and being surprised when the ball goes out the back and you miss your man.

it’s fixed with a broom and a clean out of 75% of the side

 

[Tragic Eagle]

I know we keep focussing on the pack but our spine is shocking. Service from dummy half is slow and sloppy and we get little or no go forward. There is no creativity from dummy half. The odd attempted 40/20 from dummy half early in the tackle count is not the answer. We need a steady half back that values possession and doesn't keep kicking it away early and that kicks into the corners at the end of sets or wins repeat sets when we are close to the their line with good grubbers. Footy is a simply game when it comes to getting into grind but we just can't do it. We put it up for Saab all of the time. We need a creative five eight who can tackle like a good second rower and provide variation in attack. It breaks my heart to say it but we need a full back that can run at full pace. I'd be moving Tommy in closer until he gets his body and his speed right. He's too slow to be out wide right now. I'd be moving Tommy to 5/8 for a while.