Enablers vs Match Winners

[Harmless27]

Just an observation:

We judge players based on their stats, fantasy points, scoring tries etc.

We have all noticed DCE's return to form, Tapau's meters, Dylan's line breaks etc - and quite rightly.

But it also strikes me that there are often intangible plays which get missed, aren't measured, and sometimes obscure the true value of a player.

Again I find myself jumping to the defence of Green (a player I didn't even know I liked until I started defending him recently).

I firmly believe that Green has actually added HUGE value to our team in terms of tructure, attack, and removing pressure from DCE. Can anyone honestly believe that somehow we still have Api at 9, DCE at 7, Turbo at 1, NO JAMIE LYON, and yet are a better attacking force this year?

Green's defence is horrendous - I can't sit here and defend (pun intended) that. But there is a lot more to a player than their ability to win games on their own.

Some players ENABLE other players to do their own role better.

An example of another ENABLER for me = Tooves. Don't shout me down (or do, if you really want to) but he wasn't a world beating #7. he did a role, did it exceptionally well, and gave Cliffy the freedom to be the match winner.

I am sure there are better insights/players that people will recall.... so please feel free to add them.

But my point is this - not EVERY player is needed to be a match winner, and not every player needs to be worth $1m. Teams need balance and structure to allow diamonds to shine bright - and I believe Green has done that for us this year (covering both centre and five eight gaps).

let the criticism begin.

 

[globaleagle]

I think Green has had an amazingly steadying influence on the team without him needing to be the 'big boss' like say Farrah or Gallen needed to be.

He has understood that dce is captain and goes about his work.

He's pretty darn good dagnabbit (except for his kicking last week which was rubbish...lol.)

I like him.

 

[Harvies elbow]

Green is playing a great role.
I think his presence has helped free DCE up no end.

 

[Harmless27]

I think Green has had an amazingly steadying influence on the team without him needing to be the 'big boss' like say Farrah or Gallen needed to be.

He has understood that dce is captain and goes about his work.

He's pretty darn good dag nab it (except for his kicking last week which was rubbish...lol.)

I like him.

Agree with your Farrah and Gallen comments.

I know I went too far a few weeks ago asking whether or not Green should be considered as a bolter for Origin.... so I will retract that.

having said that though, when you look at the dross thrown out there for the Blues this year, I think they could do worse than to have considered Green purely for a cool head.

On a separate note - how does Jake get chosen on the BENCH???? What a DUMB selection. Why on earth is he not ggod enough to start?

IDIOTS

 

[Harmless27]

Well thought out post ! I've started to think more along these lines myself with some players who i don't warm to so much. I haven't viewed Greens defence in great detail except for the try we let in against the Titans where the ball hit one of our players in the head and Ash Taylor ran away to score. I watched it a few times and couldn't believe Greens inept effort to stop it. He reacted really slowly and then almost ran around the back of Taylor to enter a foot race with him.
I agree partly with your view on Toovey but for much of his early career he was a dangerous runner of the ball as well. Enablers who aren't good defenders need to be exceptional in other areas in my opinion. Horrendous is a powerful description though , is he really that bad ?

Horrendous was an overstatement - I am happy to retract that for 'poor'.

I don't think his outside men have been helping him either, but that is another story.

I agree re: Toovey in his early years, and the fact that an Enabler needs to be VERY solid. Winterstein and Sironen are a little in the Enabler mode too if I cast the critical eye on the squad....

These guys earn their money, and do a job.

My other comment would be - you can't have 13 x $1m players..... you NEED cheaper, reliable players to plug the gap and keep you under the cap.

Would be interesting to challenge everyone to pull together a team (17 players) of $300k players (no superstars) and see how we go juggling the books!

 

[Holmsey]

Horrendous was an overstatement - I am happy to retract that for 'poor'.

I don't think his outside men have been helping him either, but that is another story.

I agree re: Toovey in his early years, and the fact that an Enabler needs to be VERY solid. Winterstein and Sironen are a little in the Enabler mode too if I cast the critical eye on the squad....

These guys earn their money, and do a job.

My other comment would be - you can't have 13 x $1m players..... you NEED cheaper, reliable players to plug the gap and keep you under the cap.

Would be interesting to challenge everyone to pull together a team (17 players) of $300k players (no superstars) and see how we go juggling the books!

If your broncos you can have 13 players on 1mil.

 

[The Who]

Some of us will remember the days before stats were kept. All that mattered was the final score. By watching the match a supporter knew who had a good, bad or average game.
I remember when stats were first introduced (by Jack Gibson in the late 1960's/early 70s after a trip to the US to study the NFL). I recall some players were threatening to sue the NSW rugby league for recording 'errors' which, they believed, demeaned them and lessened their value. Nothing came of the threat.
There are many useless stats. I've posted before about so-called 'hit-ups' which make no sense.
A couple I'd like to see introduced are: 'most outlandish hairstyle' and 'most colourful footwear'.

 

[Woodsie]

@Harmless27 you are totally correct and there have been many great enablers over the years.

I post the following earlier this season on a similar theme, but your term of enabler probably sums it up better ....

I, like many others are a little disappointed and perplexed at the lack of big impact so far from Siro and Winterstein. But in this I suspect we may be missing a part of the bigger picture.

I would not at all be surprised if they have both done exactly what Baz has asked them to do ... and that is concentrate on keeping the teams shape/structure in defence and attack. As the edge forwards, their positioning in the defensive line is crucial to link the middle with the outside ... if they are late to the line or missing, bad sh11t happens.

After 12 months of changing personnel and a resultant lack of defensive cohesion, I believe they have done the job asked of them and that is to concentrate on defence and keep our line in tact, and let attack come as it will.

It is clear from both their stats that they are being judged on very different criteria than just the number of hit ups and tackles made.

 

[Harmless27]

Some of us will remember the days before stats were kept. All that mattered was the final score. By watching the match a supporter knew who had a good, bad or average game.
I remember when stats were first introduced (by Jack Gibson in the late 1960's/early 70s after a trip to the US to study the NFL). I recall some players were threatening to sue the NSW rugby league for recording 'errors' which, they believed, demeaned them and lessened their value. Nothing came of the threat.
There are many useless stats. I've posted before about so-called 'hit-ups' which make no sense.
A couple I'd like to see introduced are: 'most outlandish hairstyle' and 'most colourful footwear'.

I actually blame Fantasy leagues of late for the true growth spurt in stats.

It is the reason I dislike many US sports - I just can't see the relevance in baseball of half their stats..... and ridiculous records around things such as no-hitters thrown by a pitcher on Tuesday nights where the wind is blowing from the west..... (ok, that is a ridiculous example)

But still - even 10 years ago there was less of an emphasis on stats as a judgement on a players value. Hit ups, metres gained, offlaods etc are all interesting insights - but they do nothing to measure team work, intimidation, off-the-ball effort....

One thing I LOVE to see is when (heaven forbid) our opposition get a line break and score from 80 meters out, one of our players (say BJ) chases the try scorer and forces them to score out wide...... no one ever counts that in their stats, but it means more to me than some rubbish about hit ups!

 

[Woodsie]

Ian Martin, Ima, wouldn't fiqure in too many of the Manly's greatest team lists ... but I can assure you he was one of the first picked every week.

It is one of the reasons I get p11ssed off occasionally. No team can find or afford 17 Jakes. Every team need the honest toiler that gives his best. To bag a bloke like Starling just because he is not as good Brent Kite just seems a dog act to me.

 

[Wombat Legacy]

Just an observation:

We judge players based on their stats, fantasy points, scoring tries etc.

We have all noticed DCE's return to form, Tapau's meters, Dylan's line breaks etc - and quite rightly.

But it also strikes me that there are often intangible plays which get missed, aren't measured, and sometimes obscure the true value of a player.

Again I find myself jumping to the defence of Green (a player I didn't even know I liked until I started defending him recently).

I firmly believe that Green has actually added HUGE value to our team in terms of tructure, attack, and removing pressure from DCE. Can anyone honestly believe that somehow we still have Api at 9, DCE at 7, Turbo at 1, NO JAMIE LYON, and yet are a better attacking force this year?

Green's defence is horrendous - I can't sit here and defend (pun intended) that. But there is a lot more to a player than their ability to win games on their own.

Some players ENABLE other players to do their own role better.

An example of another ENABLER for me = Tooves. Don't shout me down (or do, if you really want to) but he wasn't a world beating #7. he did a role, did it exceptionally well, and gave Cliffy the freedom to be the match winner.

I am sure there are better insights/players that people will recall.... so please feel free to add them.

But my point is this - not EVERY player is needed to be a match winner, and not every player needs to be worth $1m. Teams need balance and structure to allow diamonds to shine bright - and I believe Green has done that for us this year (covering both centre and five eight gaps).

let the criticism begin.

Well done, you understand rugby league. You are in the minority on this forum.
Blake Green is doing a fantastic job, and that will only improve moving forward.
3 cheers to the enablers (Frank is doing the enabling of many-very under rated)

 

[Wombat Legacy]

Ian Martin, Ima, wouldn't fiqure in too many of the Manly's greatest team lists ... but I can assure you he was one of the first picked every week.

He would be in mine, tough naturally gifted footballer who played well above his weight and size. Ask Bozo and Reilly, they know!

 

[Woodsie]

He would be in mine, tough naturally gifted footballer who played well above his weight and size. Ask Bozo and Reilly, they know!

But, didn't make rep teams and wasn't a superstar ... but what a value player for Manly.

 

[Wombat Legacy]

I actually blame Fantasy leagues of late for the true growth spurt in stats.

It is the reason I dislike many US sports - I just can't see the relevance in baseball of half their stats..... and ridiculous records around things such as no-hitters thrown by a pitcher on Tuesday nights where the wind is blowing from the west..... (ok, that is a ridiculous example)

But still - even 10 years ago there was less of an emphasis on stats as a judgement on a players value. Hit ups, metres gained, offlaods etc are all interesting insights - but they do nothing to measure team work, intimidation, off-the-ball effort....

One thing I LOVE to see is when (heaven forbid) our opposition get a line break and score from 80 meters out, one of our players (say BJ) chases the try scorer and forces them to score out wide...... no one ever counts that in their stats, but it means more to me than some rubbish about hit ups!

Unfortunately stats are here to stay and they do generally stack up. But what a horrible way to follow footy.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

So in a way there is a silver lining to a tough reliable player who doesn't develop beyond the enabler level and therefore doesn't stick his paw out for salary cap exceeding pay rises !

I thought you were leaving us Forty?

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Well done, you understand rugby league. You are in the minority on this forum.
Blake Green is doing a fantastic job, and that will only improve moving forward.
3 cheers to the enablers (Frank is doing the enabling of many-very under rated)

I happen to think Green, Siro and Frankenstein are doing exactly what they've been brought in to do.

The armchair critics might be unhappy but clearly the ones who really decide aren't!!

 

[nightster]

He would be in mine, tough naturally gifted footballer who played well above his weight and size. Ask Bozo and Reilly, they know!

on a similar note Norm Pounder in the late 60's ... a tireless hard working forward who played well above his weight and never received the accolades that the 'stars' did

 

[Woodsie]

Just about my favorite player at the time, I seem to recall him being the type that was never dominated by an opponent but did plenty of dominating himself.

Welcome back Forty, things have been a bit peaceful without you.

Memory is an unreliable friend, but I remember him as just getting on with the job, tough and unrelenting. I don't think his domination was a demonstrable thing ... he didn't go around belting blokes or grandstanding ..it was just at the end of the game you realised he had been as solid as a rock.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

For a period Mark , but back by popular demand........ I thought this poster deserved a bit of respect , seemed a little bit afraid of expressing a sensible opinion !

And that it was.....sensible that is!

 

[StuBoot]

If anyone watched The Back Page last night, Craig Johnston was their special guest .
For those that don't know he was pretty much the first Australian to really make it in old English Premier League ( Soccer ) .

By his own admission he said he was the worst player in the best team and a commentators description of him was "like a bee in a bottle".

He said that teams need those bees in the bottle - a team of prima donnas wouldn't get the job done but essentially players like him enabled the suoerstars to be,,well, superstars.

Kind of why the Storm have been so successful, Bellamy is pretty good at identifying "enablers" to complement Slayer, Cronk, Smith,
Des even did it with our golden run - Mauro, Hall, Bryant ,Willo etc

The sum of the parts enable teams to flourish and that's the key.