Defensive structures

[Snake]

Obviously we were blown away and obviously there is no excuse for that...however, there may be an explanation.

Last year we leaked points down our edges and struggled with the new rules. Over the off season this was addressed with the idea of new defensive structures on the edges. You will have noticed on a number of occasions on Saturday, our defence held and attempted to slide with the play when in the past, you would have seen them rush in. That’s the new structure.

Two things...

1. for this structure to work, you need to have speed. An edge of Foran and Parker is certainly on the slower end of the spectrum and then you have an absolute turn style on the end of it in Garrick...pair that up against the most devastating right edge in attack (meaning the Chooks) and you get the seven tries from Saturday.

2. Like all structures born at training, you have to use them in matches to get them working efficiently. Hopefully the players are getting used to it and will be better as the season progresses. There way come a time when we revert back to the old structures but that’ll depend how quickly we adjust.

 

[KaZa]

It also helps when the coach selects the right players in the right positions

 

[Snake]

I’m not forming an opinion on any of this by the way...it is what is...not saying it’s good, bad, gonna work or not gonna work...just saying it’s a new structure

 

[mave]

Well it couldn't be any worse than the last structure from late last year.

 

[Kalvin]

I think we should try a new structure called "winning"!

 

[frank stokes]

Well it couldn't be any worse than the last structure from late last year.

We had defensive structures last year?

 

[Clint]

Hey @Snake Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about this since the weekend and this is the perfect thread. Like yourself, I'm not casting an opinion here one way or another, just an observation.
I noticed on the weekend during one of the many Roosters attacking raids that our outside defensive line was moving back and sliding, and this probably leads into your point above. Our slow pedestrian outside backs are trying to slide and move backwards with the Roosters running forward at pace. Barring an error, the attacking team is always going to come out on top in that situation. Our outside backs were just turnstiles as you rightly pointed out.
I'm not that analytical when it comes to games, I normally just boo or cheer when the situation arises. I'll leave it to the more analytical to decide what the solution is, but I would not have thought moving backwards, creating more space for the opposition was the answer.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I remember the good old days of yore .. was it only 2 years ago ...

That every post started with those wonderful words full of optimism and hope, dare I whisper them again? .. " Now that we have a good coach" ...

And every post included the mandatory acknowledgement that now that we had a good coach he would instill some grit and resolve back into the team ... and let's not forget that Dessie is noted for his defense, and he would stop this point leaking crap toot sweet ...

And let's not forget that, .. now that we have a good coach he will get the best out of these under performing players ... he is noted for it they cried ...

Was it only 2 years ago ... “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”

Has Dessie forgotten how to coach ... or are the generation z or m or whatever, just not listening ?

I know where you’re coming from (and where you’re going with this!)
However morale is a key issue, is it not?
So, how did you feel when you heard the news about Turbo?
When you heard about Titmus?
How do you think the players felt?
We’ve been knocked around for sure, I’m still unable to think of who would do better than Des to get us out of this.
Maybe he can’t. On which case he’ll be replaced. I don’t think we can make that call yet. Just my view of course, I’ve been wrong before (just can’t recall the date, may have been in the nineties

 

[Dion Johnson]

The positive is at least they are trying something different and addressing the problem.

The roosters had somewhat of a new right edge this season, with Keary and Topounia moving over to the right edge.

 

[Budgie]

Hopefully the players are getting used to it and will be better as the season progresses.

Oh ffs!!! (not aimed at you Snake). A player goes to a new club and they'd better be used to the new structures by game day of game one of the season.
Our little darlings need time to get used to new structures?
Why didn't we buy some actual footballers?

 

[Tomay]

It would be helped with defensive line speed, especially from the middle. This puts pressure on their halves at the edges and gives room to slide without backpeddling.

 

[Woodsie]

I know where you’re coming from (and where you’re going with this!)
However morale is a key issue, is it not?
So, how did you feel when you heard the news about Turbo?
When you heard about Titmus?
How do you think the players felt?
We’ve been knocked around for sure, I’m still unable to think of who would do better than Des to get us out of this.
Maybe he can’t. On which case he’ll be replaced. I don’t think we can make that call yet. Just my view of course, I’ve been wrong before (just can’t recall the date, may have been in the nineties

I said in another thread that I haven't given up hope in Dessie yet .. but that it was starting to feel like a Bulldog's sequel ..

And historically teams use adversity to motivate and inspire, to bond together with a common objective .... are you suggesting we are using it to fall apart ? .. very sad if you are correct ..

 

[Brookie Bob]

I have not posted on a Manly forum since.....last century. Think Sarge & Co on the OOE page.The current situation appears as dark as I've seen it. There has always been some logical explanation for failure - inexperienced/poor quality/out of position players, less than ideal coach, back office issues, Super League, etc. But this - I've never seen such a run of tissue-thin defense from a Manly team, a team I've been watching for 50 out of 75 years.

I'll have a shot at it. A defensive line is a 'trust' line - each player has to have confidence that the one next to him is going to do the right thing, whether the opposition does something predictable or unpredictable. It's one thing to defend with team mates helping you, or even marking up close by, but another thing to do it one on one at speed - usually out wide.

Thinking of the best outside defense of recent years, it's hard to go past Jamie Lyon and Steve Matai, and it highlights just how important both were in shutting down attacks out wide. Both were not only peerless one on one defenders, they were experts in directing their wingers where to defend, and covering up defensive errors from the second rowers or halves defending on the inside. They were leaders just as much as athletes.

We don't have thinkers and leaders in our outside backs as much now - as 'reactors'. They're not anticipating, or not anticipating well enough. Brad Parker is usually a good one on one defender, and that's probably why he's in the team. His stop on Sivo last year was physically impressive. On Saturday he was a shadow of that. Is it the young age / lack of experience that is responsible for poor edge defense? Hard to say - but all prospective Manly centres should be made to watch the tapes and master Jamie Lyons superior 'outside backs defense 1:01' before they are allowed on a footy field.

If the new rules are making players buggered quicker than ever, then trusting the player next to you to get it right first time is more important than ever - you won't have the luxury of a super fit team mate screaming across the field to cover your inept excuse of a tackle. Perhaps learning how to execute the Steve Menzies 'chop 'em down' leg tackle might be worth a go again; even if they offload, it may slow the play slightly. Opposition players will just have our arm-grabbing ball and all attempts for breakfast if we continue down this path.

 

[Budgie]

However morale is a key issue, is it not?
So, how did you feel when you heard the news about Turbo?
When you heard about Titmus?
How do you think the players felt?

Seriously?
When the players heard about Turbo they should have been
a) ready for it and
b) desperate to prove they can win without the great white hobbler
And when they heard about Titmus, I believe their reaction was about how they'd play for him in 2021. Zero sign of that.
SER8 you seem to really care about the feelings of the players but all I see is a bunch of players taking their money for no effort and the odd laugh after the game.

 

[pjayz]

Oh ffs!!! (not aimed at you Snake). A player goes to a new club and they'd better be used to the new structures by game day of game one of the season.
Our little darlings need time to get used to new structures?
Why didn't we buy some actual footballers?

I wouldn't want to be on your bad side in the classroom Ms Budgie. "I'll do my homework next time I promise...no...no...not the chalk again"...[duck and weave].​

 

[frank stokes]

Hey @Snake Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about this since the weekend and this is the perfect thread. Like yourself, I'm not casting an opinion here one way or another, just an observation.
I noticed on the weekend during one of the many Roosters attacking raids that our outside defensive line was moving back and sliding, and this probably leads into your point above. Our slow pedestrian outside backs are trying to slide and move backwards with the Roosters running forward at pace. Barring an error, the attacking team is always going to come out on top in that situation. Our outside backs were just turnstiles as you rightly pointed out.
I'm not that analytical when it comes to games, I normally just boo or cheer when the situation arises. I'll leave it to the more analytical to decide what the solution is, but I would not have thought moving backwards, creating more space for the opposition was the answer.

it was very noticable... even more so when Morris changed direction just as Garrick turned side-on and tried to build pace to get in front of him...

 

[Woodsie]

I have not posted on a Manly forum since.....last century. Think Sarge & Co on the OOE page.The current situation appears as dark as I've seen it. There has always been some logical explanation for failure - inexperienced/poor quality/out of position players, less than ideal coach, back office issues, Super League, etc. But this - I've never seen such a run of tissue-thin defense from a Manly team, a team I've been watching for 50 out of 75 years.

I'll have a shot at it. A defensive line is a 'trust' line - each player has to have confidence that the one next to him is going to do the right thing, whether the opposition does something predictable or unpredictable. It's one thing to defend with team mates helping you, or even marking up close by, but another thing to do it one on one at speed - usually out wide.

Thinking of the best outside defense of recent years, it's hard to go past Jamie Lyon and Steve Matai, and it highlights just how important both were in shutting down attacks out wide. Both were not only peerless one on one defenders, they were experts in directing their wingers where to defend, and covering up defensive errors from the second rowers or halves defending on the inside. They were leaders just as much as athletes.

We don't have thinkers and leaders in our outside backs as much now - as 'reactors'. They're not anticipating, or not anticipating well enough. Brad Parker is usually a good one on one defender, and that's probably why he's in the team. His stop on Sivo last year was physically impressive. On Saturday he was a shadow of that. Is it the young age / lack of experience that is responsible for poor edge defense? Hard to say - but all prospective Manly centres should be made to watch the tapes and master Jamie Lyons superior 'outside backs defense 1:01' before they are allowed on a footy field.

If the new rules are making players buggered quicker than ever, then trusting the player next to you to get it right first time is more important than ever - you won't have the luxury of a super fit team mate screaming across the field to cover your inept excuse of a tackle. Perhaps learning how to execute the Steve Menzies 'chop 'em down' leg tackle might be worth a go again; even if they offload, it may slow the play slightly. Opposition players will just have our arm-grabbing ball and all attempts for breakfast if we continue down this path.

Well said Bob, another difference from times past is now the tackling techniques have changed, no longer is a centre just trying to do a one on one tackle around the legs for fear of an offload ..so now the first defender's prime objective to hold and wrap up the ball runner and wait for a team mate to come and help ... so now 3 on three is no longer equal ...

 

[wombatgc]

Hey @Snake Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about this since the weekend and this is the perfect thread. Like yourself, I'm not casting an opinion here one way or another, just an observation.
I noticed on the weekend during one of the many Roosters attacking raids that our outside defensive line was moving back and sliding, and this probably leads into your point above. Our slow pedestrian outside backs are trying to slide and move backwards with the Roosters running forward at pace. Barring an error, the attacking team is always going to come out on top in that situation. Our outside backs were just turnstiles as you rightly pointed out.
I'm not that analytical when it comes to games, I normally just boo or cheer when the situation arises. I'll leave it to the more analytical to decide what the solution is, but I would not have thought moving backwards, creating more space for the opposition was the answer.

Spot on. To play sliding defence is one thing. But there’s a reason it’s called sliding and not sliding/backpedaling defence. You gotta be in their face when they get the ball. You can’t give speedsters time in attack.

 

[Budgie]

I wouldn't want to be on your bad side in the classroom Ms Budgie. "I'll do my homework next time I promise...no...no...not the chalk again"...[duck and weave].​

Firm but fair!

 

[Clint]

I'll have a shot at it. A defensive line is a 'trust' line - each player has to have confidence that the one next to him is going to do the right thing,

Spot on. You are only as strong as your weakest link and unfortunately we have a few of those atm.