Defensive structures

[winnyason]

It's a talent issue there no way in the world Garrick, Parker, Goewiski and Croker play first grade elsewhere. Des had 12 months to get used to 6 again and sort the hooker issue.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Obviously we were blown away and obviously there is no excuse for that...however, there may be an explanation.

Last year we leaked points down our edges and struggled with the new rules. Over the off season this was addressed with the idea of new defensive structures on the edges. You will have noticed on a number of occasions on Saturday, our defence held and attempted to slide with the play when in the past, you would have seen them rush in. That’s the new structure.

Two things...

1. for this structure to work, you need to have speed. An edge of Foran and Parker is certainly on the slower end of the spectrum and then you have an absolute turn style on the end of it in Garrick...pair that up against the most devastating right edge in attack (meaning the Chooks) and you get the seven tries from Saturday.

2. Like all structures born at training, you have to use them in matches to get them working efficiently. Hopefully the players are getting used to it and will be better as the season progresses. There way come a time when we revert back to the old structures but that’ll depend how quickly we adjust.

I can accept that totally - it does take time to adapt and get a new defensive structure right. I just for the life of me don't understand the sliding defence which then goes backwards as the runners move forward. The whole idea of slide is to wait until the ball has left the hand and to hold your line and move sideways trying to use the sideline as another defender. Maybe I am old fashioned and don't understand the new version of slide but I have played in slide defences and never were we taught to retreat. Mind you - I prefer the up and in their face bash them into submission type of defence. Pretty hard to run if you have driven a shoulder into the midriff or up under the rib cage and they are coughing up their lungs.

 

[tookey]

We had defensive structures last year?

We have one this year?

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

It's a talent issue there no way in the world Garrick, Parker, Goewiski and Croker play first grade elsewhere. Des had 12 months to get used to 6 again and sort the hooker issue.

I agree but.... in Des' defence just which hooker of relevant skill/experience was on the market that we could afford? I do think he could have cleaned a few players out though - Garrick, Boyle, Parker (concussion prone), Jetki. Apparently he did almost have Garrick gone in a swap for Saab! And Croker is way off the mark talent wise but when your hooking cupboard is bare - you need some back up. Cust was always the man with Croker just a backup if needed.

 

[wombatgc]

I prefer the up and in their face bash them into submission type of defence. Pretty hard to run if you have driven a shoulder into the midriff or up under the rib cage and they are coughing up their lungs.

Ahhh, a man after my own heart. 🙂

 

[RedEagle]

Obviously we were blown away and obviously there is no excuse for that...however, there may be an explanation.

Last year we leaked points down our edges and struggled with the new rules. Over the off season this was addressed with the idea of new defensive structures on the edges. You will have noticed on a number of occasions on Saturday, our defence held and attempted to slide with the play when in the past, you would have seen them rush in. That’s the new structure.

Two things...

1. for this structure to work, you need to have speed. An edge of Foran and Parker is certainly on the slower end of the spectrum and then you have an absolute turn style on the end of it in Garrick...pair that up against the most devastating right edge in attack (meaning the Chooks) and you get the seven tries from Saturday.

2. Like all structures born at training, you have to use them in matches to get them working efficiently. Hopefully the players are getting used to it and will be better as the season progresses. There way come a time when we revert back to the old structures but that’ll depend how quickly we adjust.

If you watch the replay of the tries it is alarming to see our left edge defenders running backwards and across field. This actually opened up so much extra room for Keary & Tedesco to use speed and power to tear us to ribbons.
The problem we have is that last year with the up & in D teams went around us. Now they are just going through us.

 

[globaleagle]

Mind you - I prefer the up and in their face bash them into submission type of defence. Pretty hard to run if you have driven a shoulder into the midriff or up under the rib cage and they are coughing up their lungs.

Ahhh, a man after my own heart. 🙂

Actually...sounds like he's after your lungs!

 

[winnyason]

I agree but.... in Des' defence just which hooker of relevant skill/experience was on the market that we could afford? I do think he could have cleaned a few players out though - Garrick, Boyle, Parker (concussion prone), Jetki. Apparently he did almost have Garrick gone in a swap for Saab! And Croker is way off the mark talent wise but when your hooking cupboard is bare - you need some back up. Cust was always the man with Croker just a backup if needed.

Nathan Peats we never needed Foran Schuster needs to play first grade waste of money.

 

[Snake]

In response to those of you who were analysing the new structure based on Saturday’s game and have pointed out the ‘back-pedalling’...

that is because they are trained not to bite anymore. They kinda move with the play and obviously if the play is coming at you and you don’t bite, you find yourself moving back in the hope that the opposition will run themselves out of room. In theory it makes sense but in action against good opposition, they just break through the one on one tackles or offload.

it can only work when there is enough cover from inside and I think our lack of pace (particularly Foran who was caught out a number of times due to a lack of speed) was exposed badly. It’s probably a good structure if you have fast defenders.

 

[robbiea]

With the Sliding defence structure ,#1 rule is having 100% confidence in the man next to you making the tackle if you come out of the line.
These guys don't seem to carry confidence in themselves let alone their team mates.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Ahhh, a man after my own heart. 🙂

If in doubt - bash them was my motto lol lol.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

With the Sliding defence structure ,#1 rule is having 100% confidence in the man next to you making the tackle if you come out of the line.
These guys don't seem to carry confidence in themselves let alone their team mates.

The secret with slide.... is you don't come out of the line. Slide also needs both sides of the field - open and blind to slide because if you don't they will have someone coming back against the slide into a hole.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

In response to those of you who were analysing the new structure based on Saturday’s game and have pointed out the ‘back-pedalling’...

that is because they are trained not to bite anymore. They kinda move with the play and obviously if the play is coming at you and you don’t bite, you find yourself moving back in the hope that the opposition will run themselves out of room. In theory it makes sense but in action against good opposition, they just break through the one on one tackles or offload.

it can only work when there is enough cover from inside and I think our lack of pace (particularly Foran who was caught out a number of times due to a lack of speed) was exposed badly. It’s probably a good structure if you have fast defenders.

To me that has to be because the defensive line is too close to the attackers. With slide there is no need to "bite" - because as you say they either run out of room or someone straightens and hits the line and the inside defender that is his man because you never leave and "slide" until the ball has left the hands. So I am still very confused with the back peddling. Also seems super messy with the back peddling because when they do hit the line - defenders seem to be getting in each others way and how Morris stepped inside to score means the slide did not have him all the time on their outside shoulder showing him the sideline. Garrick in fact overslid at least once.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I have not posted on a Manly forum since.....last century. Think Sarge & Co on the OOE page.The current situation appears as dark as I've seen it. There has always been some logical explanation for failure - inexperienced/poor quality/out of position players, less than ideal coach, back office issues, Super League, etc. But this - I've never seen such a run of tissue-thin defense from a Manly team, a team I've been watching for 50 out of 75 years.

I'll have a shot at it. A defensive line is a 'trust' line - each player has to have confidence that the one next to him is going to do the right thing, whether the opposition does something predictable or unpredictable. It's one thing to defend with team mates helping you, or even marking up close by, but another thing to do it one on one at speed - usually out wide.

Thinking of the best outside defense of recent years, it's hard to go past Jamie Lyon and Steve Matai, and it highlights just how important both were in shutting down attacks out wide. Both were not only peerless one on one defenders, they were experts in directing their wingers where to defend, and covering up defensive errors from the second rowers or halves defending on the inside. They were leaders just as much as athletes.

We don't have thinkers and leaders in our outside backs as much now - as 'reactors'. They're not anticipating, or not anticipating well enough. Brad Parker is usually a good one on one defender, and that's probably why he's in the team. His stop on Sivo last year was physically impressive. On Saturday he was a shadow of that. Is it the young age / lack of experience that is responsible for poor edge defense? Hard to say - but all prospective Manly centres should be made to watch the tapes and master Jamie Lyons superior 'outside backs defense 1:01' before they are allowed on a footy field.

If the new rules are making players buggered quicker than ever, then trusting the player next to you to get it right first time is more important than ever - you won't have the luxury of a super fit team mate screaming across the field to cover your inept excuse of a tackle. Perhaps learning how to execute the Steve Menzies 'chop 'em down' leg tackle might be worth a go again; even if they offload, it may slow the play slightly. Opposition players will just have our arm-grabbing ball and all attempts for breakfast if we continue down this path.

Great post , welcome Bob

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

And historically teams use adversity to motivate and inspire, to bond together with a common objective .... are you suggesting we are using it to fall apart ? .. very sad if you are correct ..

I'm not suggesting that, just searching for explanations really. I agree they should use adversity to bond together, obviously it's just not as simple as flicking a switch this time.

Seriously?
When the players heard about Turbo they should have been
a) ready for it and
b) desperate to prove they can win without the great white hobbler
And when they heard about Titmus, I believe their reaction was about how they'd play for him in 2021. Zero sign of that.
SER8 you seem to really care about the feelings of the players but all I see is a bunch of players taking their money for no effort and the odd laugh after the game.

I don't really give 2 hoots about the feelings of the players, I care about my feelings and I feel a lot better when we are beating the Chooks not getting flogged by them.
Just a bit of musing to self I suppose, but I'm far from convinced by the explanations - and suggested solutions - I've seen here so far.
for example - I recall the Knights the year one of their players suffered a catastrophic injury. A bit different to the Titmus situation but not totally. They went from 3rd to nowhere in quick time. Despite having Bennett at the helm. They replaced Bennett but merely went on to win a bunch of spoons.
So sure, tinker with team selection, or bring in a better coach if you can actually find one - but be aware that things could actually get worse.

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

Any defensive structure has to have some sort of "bite". You can't be so passive that you keep running backwards while waiting to see what the opposition wants to do. Once you let them do what they want to do, you've already lost the contest. The idea is to stop them doing what they want.

 

[Budgie]

I'm not suggesting that, just searching for explanations really. I agree they should use adversity to bond together, obviously it's just not as simple as flicking a switch this time.

I don't really give 2 hoots about the feelings of the players, I care about my feelings and I feel a lot better when we are beating the Chooks not getting flogged by them.
Just a bit of musing to self I suppose, but I'm far from convinced by the explanations - and suggested solutions - I've seen here so far.
for example - I recall the Knights the year one of their players suffered a catastrophic injury. A bit different to the Titmus situation but not totally. They went from 3rd to nowhere in quick time. Despite having Bennett at the helm. They replaced Bennett but merely went on to win a bunch of spoons.
So sure, tinker with team selection, or bring in a better coach if you can actually find one - but be aware that things could actually get worse.

And then there was Ben Alexander. You're right.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I don't think I'm right because I don't actually have any idea what the answer is. I just think there's a bit more to it than incompetent players/over-the-hill coach.

 

[susan]

As Snake eludes to the obvious question is why would a coach set up a defensive structure that by its very nature requires speed then go out of his way to select players lacking in speed eg Foran and Parker.

Surely you create your structure and pick players who can accomodate it or alternatively build a structure that suits slower players.

Putting Parker and Foran in a structure like that is ridiculous.

Which makes a pacy Dylan moving to fullback and replacing him with a slow centre and keeping Shuster in reserves simply crazy.Why not Harper or Funa to replace Scorpio — they can at least can cover some ground and give the system a chance.

I have no issue with Foran bring 6 and Shuster 14 but don’t build a defensive structure that requires speed.
Does not make any sense at all.

 

[The better Robbo]

In response to those of you who were analysing the new structure based on Saturday’s game and have pointed out the ‘back-pedalling’...

that is because they are trained not to bite anymore. They kinda move with the play and obviously if the play is coming at you and you don’t bite, you find yourself moving back in the hope that the opposition will run themselves out of room. In theory it makes sense but in action against good opposition, they just break through the one on one tackles or offload.

it can only work when there is enough cover from inside and I think our lack of pace (particularly Foran who was caught out a number of times due to a lack of speed) was exposed badly. It’s probably a good structure if you have fast defenders.

Add to that we didn't trail most players. They were always gonna struggle the first couple weeks