Are We Fit Enough

[tookey]

Schuster gives you an idea as to where our fitness is at

Too much KFC

 

[The Who]

Schuster gives you an idea as to where our fitness is at

Too much KFC

Next season he'll be expected to stack on more bulk to play second row. He already seems slow, and doesn't try to run the ball anymore. I'm fearful that The Shoe will never reach his full potential.

 

[Seagles68]

Our issue is mental fitness

I thought they were all mentally strengthened after the pre season boot camp we heard so much about.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

 

[Rocky]

Hey mate. Like any club, some players are fitter than others. But one thing I WILL say, is our club have a habit of acquiring too many of the same types of forwards, which may give the illusion of being unfit.

In today's game, the Liam Martin type forwards are the prototype. Mobile, lean, aggressive, explosive, intense.

At Manly, we seem to go with the slower, lumbering, post contact metre types (larger, thicker frames). This means overall, our team is slower than most. What it also means, is we get lethargic quicker (so bench rotation is paramount), which means we fade in games, and our middles get flimsy when lethargy kicks in.

I'd go as far as to say, we don't have ONE uptempo, lean, mobile forward (besides maybe Matterson).

This is then exasserbated by lazy players in Tuipulotu, who has had the slowest play-the-ball speed (bottom 3) in the entire NRL over 2 seasons now.

Another point I'll make, is our attackers are easily turned and rotated on their backs in tackles. If you look at the best teams right now, they ensure they position themselves (on their fronts / stomachs) to get up and play the ball at lightning speed. This then creates momentum.

This is another reason we tend to get hemmed into our own zone, and have to rely on DCE's boot to kick us out of trouble.

Lastly, and I say this with trepidation given the Croker love in thread, but the service out of dummy half is both cumbersome and inaccurate. My GOD, someone even suggested he's like Matt Ballin. FMD. You could actually hear the ball fizz when Ballin passed the ball - I know, I've heard it.

So all these things combined, in my opinion is the reason we at least appear to be unfit. I don't think it's that personally, I just think we have a different view on today's body type for a forward, and honestly, lazy play by guys like Tuipulotu, and poor service out of dummy half (on top of very slow play-the-balls by falling into the fetal position when a defender touches us).

Good post. We had enough lumbering forwards and doubled down on the strategy with lodge and Sharon.

No wonder young, mobile teams like the Panthers and Cowboys smash us.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Hey mate. Like any club, some players are fitter than others. But one thing I WILL say, is our club have a habit of acquiring too many of the same types of forwards, which may give the illusion of being unfit.

In today's game, the Liam Martin type forwards are the prototype. Mobile, lean, aggressive, explosive, intense.

At Manly, we seem to go with the slower, lumbering, post contact metre types (larger, thicker frames). This means overall, our team is slower than most. What it also means, is we get lethargic quicker (so bench rotation is paramount), which means we fade in games, and our middles get flimsy when lethargy kicks in.

I'd go as far as to say, we don't have ONE uptempo, lean, mobile forward (besides maybe Matterson).

This is then exasserbated by lazy players in Tuipulotu, who has had the slowest play-the-ball speed (bottom 3) in the entire NRL over 2 seasons now.

Another point I'll make, is our attackers are easily turned and rotated on their backs in tackles. If you look at the best teams right now, they ensure they position themselves (on their fronts / stomachs) to get up and play the ball at lightning speed. This then creates momentum.

This is another reason we tend to get hemmed into our own zone, and have to rely on DCE's boot to kick us out of trouble.

Lastly, and I say this with trepidation given the Croker love in thread, but the service out of dummy half is both cumbersome and inaccurate. My GOD, someone even suggested he's like Matt Ballin. FMD. You could actually hear the ball fizz when Ballin passed the ball - I know, I've heard it.

So all these things combined, in my opinion is the reason we at least appear to be unfit. I don't think it's that personally, I just think we have a different view on today's body type for a forward, and honestly, lazy play by guys like Tuipulotu, and poor service out of dummy half (on top of very slow play-the-balls by falling into the fetal position when a defender touches us).

So many areas need fixing ist not funny. The Ballin / Croker comparisons is like apples and oranges. Yes both have high work ethic, but here's the difference....Ballin was the backup to Cam Smith in Origin and actually played 1 game of Origin but was only kept out much the same way Stuart McGill was out of the Australian Cricket Team , when Shane Warne was in front of him and would have played way more Origin games if Smith was unavailable.
Yet Croker probably has about a dozen blokes who will get picked ahead of him in Origin.
In addition Ballin won 2 grand finals and was instrumental in the those wins, including scoring a try.
I will cop a lot of flak for my above comments, but sometimes the truth hurts.
To be fair to Ballin, Id say a comparison to Croker would be Chad Randall, Danny Levi or Scott Fulton.

 

[LeonardCohen]

The Shark game was not a perfect example of fitness as we lost 3 middles and they had all the pill 2nd half....but in general, 100% agree off the pace in this department and it's a key area for the true Premiership contenders.
The biggest issue I find that shows a distinct lack of fitness is arguably the key parts of the modern game, defensive line speed which we are near the worst in the comp allowing opposition momentum and space for the outside backs to threaten.....along with winning quick play the balls, which in a big way, fighting for feet to beat the marker to play the ball is the other side of the coin.
I have a strong belief, if you have energy and desire in your players, it is far easier to overcome fatigue and tiredness as opposed to players dropping heads with negative attitudes will always look spent far earlier or when the going gets tough.
Great post btw, totally get it.

The thing about line speed though, is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You've gotta control the ruck to have any chance at line speed; when the opposition is playing the ball whilst you're still getting back onside, you're not gonna have line speed. To control the opposition ruck, you gotta win contact. Then you gotta consider winning your own ruck when you have the ball, turn the opposition forwards around with a good kick off the back of a good yardage set and tire the opposition out. You've gotta complete sets and play field position. Everything about RL is a domino effect. Fitness is only one part of it and with all the sports science and revolving door of players, assistants, high performance staff, and administrators, all 17 teams are 'fit' in the general sense (it's not as if some clubs are in the dark about the effective methods of certain other clubs, e.g., Ciraldo just left Penrith for Canterbury). It's the collective physiology of the roster that differentiates one club from another. I'm sure Manly train just as hard and just as smart as the other 16 clubs, but we've got a pretty heavy and cumbersome pack.

Penrith have the best line speed in the competition because they consistently do EVERYTHING well ALL THE TIME (and have the right body types for the fast modern game). We do some things well, sometimes, and that's why we struggle to have line speed. It's because we are slowly losing the game as the dominos fall.

 

[maxta]

The thing about line speed though, is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You've gotta control the ruck to have any chance at line speed; when the opposition is playing the ball whilst you're still getting back onside, you're not gonna have line speed. To control the opposition ruck, you gotta win contact. Then you gotta consider winning your own ruck when you have the ball, turn the opposition forwards around with a good kick off the back of a good yardage set and tire the opposition out. You've gotta complete sets and play field position. Everything about RL is a domino effect. Fitness is only one part of it and with all the sports science and revolving door of players, assistants, high performance staff, and administrators, all 17 teams are 'fit' in the general sense (it's not as if some clubs are in the dark about the effective methods of certain other clubs, e.g., Ciraldo just left Penrith for Canterbury). It's the collective physiology of the roster that differentiates one club from another. I'm sure Manly train just as hard and just as smart as the other 16 clubs, but we've got a pretty heavy and cumbersome pack.

Penrith have the best line speed in the competition because they consistently do EVERYTHING well ALL THE TIME (and have the right body types for the fast modern game). We do some things well, sometimes, and that's why we struggle to have line speed. It's because we are slowly losing the game as the dominos fall.

What you say is 100% correct
The problem I have after a dominant Keppie or oka tackle after they control the ruck speed, we still stand back and wait for them.
Look it's effort and attitude combined with fitness, I just notice we fall away even more later in each half with poor defensive speed, which smells badly of fitness...

 

[NREagle]

Jake is also our most penalised player & gives away numerous 6 agains……on 3 occasions against the Sharks he gave away penalties & 6 agains which led to try’s!!!

Often wondered if he had a direction from Des in past seasons to slow down the play the ball to give our defensive line time to reset.

This year Jake has the most ruck infringements in the nrl (with 9) but he is not even listed in the top 50 players in the stats for penalties conceded and nor is he listed in the top 50 for set restarts.

 

[madmax]

Often wondered if he had a direction from Des in past seasons to slow down the play the ball to give our defensive line time to reset.

This year Jake has the most ruck infringements in the nrl (with 9) but he is not even listed in the top 50 players in the stats for penalties conceded and nor is he listed in the top 50 for set restarts.

Mate I love Jake but it’s frustrating watching him get off players after a tackle! I’m not sure what he’s thinking. Imagine defending so hard & then penalty or 6 again against you. Having to dig deep again & again. It would really pi$$ me off!!

 

[grassy]

Mate I love Jake but it’s frustrating watching him get off players after a tackle! I’m not sure what he’s thinking. Imagine defending so hard & then penalty or 6 again against you. Having to dig deep again & again. It would really pi$$ me off!!

Yea I see that quite a bit. Some games are good though. Also a lot of teams do it. It’s frustrating to watch.

 

[grassy]

I think the fitter our players are the more chance that they will back themselves by running the ball. If they lack fitness then it promotes the fear factor of getting smashed and injured. The fitter you are the more impact you will have in a game. It just stands to reason. It’s a fast game nowadays.It’s not as quick as touch but can certainly see where it’s headed. I can’t see our game slowing down anytime soon.

 

[maxta]

Often wondered if he had a direction from Des in past seasons to slow down the play the ball to give our defensive line time to reset.

This year Jake has the most ruck infringements in the nrl (with 9) but he is not even listed in the top 50 players in the stats for penalties conceded and nor is he listed in the top 50 for set restarts.

Jake does hang around for a while and get pinged a fair bit, but let me add.....
There's not 1 player in the NRL who gets called out a tackle quicker than Jake, soon as he touches a player all you hear is "Jakeeeee"
And this even when he uses a textbook snapping tackle that should be dominant and allow extra time as you hear "Jakeeeee" 😅
And maybe to eliminate these so called high tackles every 30 seconds the refs should reward perfect 1 on 1 legs tackles, instead of rewarding the attacker who has been cut down in a perfect tackle that few defenders possess these days....maybe for the fact you are penalised for winning that copybook legs tackle pushing defenders to use hands and go high ...

 

[LeonardCohen]

I agree the Keppie and Ola example you’ve given is to do with a tank that’s 3/4 empty, I’m more or less questioning why it’s empty. It’s only my opinion, but I don’t think it’s because our club is falling behind in terms of strength, conditioning and fitness. Seibs has been at the Broncos, Bunnies, Storm and Wallabies, and seen what’s out there. Flanno’s Sharks we’re notoriously fit.

I believe the tank is empty because we lose the subtle aspects of the game consistently over a sustained period of time and it’s death by a thousand cuts. On other occasions, we get it right throughout the game and sustain our intent for the duration; watching the Roosters and Cowboys games, we were defending well in the 80th minute.

Anyway, you could indeed be right, just thinking out loud 👍

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

So many areas need fixing ist not funny. The Ballin / Croker comparisons is like apples and oranges. Yes both have high work ethic, but here's the difference....Ballin was the backup to Cam Smith in Origin and actually played 1 game of Origin but was only kept out much the same way Stuart McGill was out of the Australian Cricket Team , when Shane Warne was in front of him and would have played way more Origin games if Smith was unavailable.
Yet Croker probably has about a dozen blokes who will get picked ahead of him in Origin.
In addition Ballin won 2 grand finals and was instrumental in the those wins, including scoring a try.
I will cop a lot of flak for my above comments, but sometimes the truth hurts.
To be fair to Ballin, Id say a comparison to Croker would be Chad Randall, Danny Levi or Scott Fulton.

Ballin generally benefited from being in much stronger Manly sides than Croker has played in. He wasn’t anything special skill wise, Croker has it on him there. I cannot recall Ballin kicking a 40/20 or chipping and chasing to score a try, which Croker is capable of.

Ballin simply came from a smaller footballing gene pool - Queensland - with only Smith ahead of him and perhaps only the moptopped bloke from the Cowboys vying with him as Smith’s replacement. Plus he was a supremely fit and dedicated player with a high work rate.

Just like Croker.

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

Mate I love Jake but it’s frustrating watching him get off players after a tackle! I’m not sure what he’s thinking.

Pretty sure he's thinking, "None of these other f**kwits is going to make a tackle so I may as well give myself a breather before I have to do this again." But I agree that slowing down the ruck that way was coached into him. We just have to wait for Supercoach Seibold to coach it out.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I pretty sure I'll get called out as some sort of Dunning–Kruger know nothing (again)...but as I've decided to make fitness a bit of a hobby in the past few years, I figure I'll chime in anyway with some thoughts and theories.
And, I'm not claiming to know the answer, but am just putting forward an idea on where we are going wrong. I am also not a fitness expert (so if you only want to hear from one, don't bother reading or responding to the remaining post....I am more than happy for you to think it is simply the coaches' fault/s and or that many of our players are fat and lazy).
(I'm no expert but) There is a lot to "fitness".... how quickly you can recover from big efforts, how many big efforts you can get through before you are done, how big an effort you can do and for how long and how long you can go at an intermediate pace before you are done.
IMO several players appear to be falling over after one too many big efforts. They hit a limit and that's it, they can no longer perform at a decent level even when not pushed. Players come out hard perform well and then fall off a cliff. Even a stint on the bench or at half time doesn't help, they never bounce back.
I think it's hard to criticise most of the team's fitness but I do think that there is something wrong with the balance (especially in the forwards), either in the areas they strong and weak in, or in the tactics that see them get burnt out so quickly. I also wonder if the time and distance that some members need to get to and from training impacts on their ability to train (thinking fo Kristie Fulton's comments to Schuster here).

 

[LeonardCohen]

Ballin generally benefited from being in much stronger Manly sides than Croker has played in. He wasn’t anything special skill wise, Croker has it on him there. I cannot recall Ballin kicking a 40/20 or chipping and chasing to score a try, which Croker is capable of.

Ballin simply came from a smaller footballing gene pool - Queensland - with only Smith ahead of him and perhaps only the moptopped bloke from the Cowboys vying with him as Smith’s replacement. Plus he was a supremely fit and dedicated player with a high work rate.

Just like Croker.

I believe Ballin had the best pass from dummy half in the NRL when he was still playing. I also don’t ever recall him missing a tackle, ever.

He is light years ahead Croker with or without a good team around him.

 

[patorick2010]

I pretty sure I'll get called out as some sort of Dunning–Kruger know nothing (again)...but as I've decided to make fitness a bit of a hobby in the past few years, I figure I'll chime in anyway with some thoughts and theories.
And, I'm not claiming to know the answer, but am just putting forward an idea on where we are going wrong. I am also not a fitness expert (so if you only want to hear from one, don't bother reading or responding to the remaining post....I am more than happy for you to think it is simply the coaches' fault/s and or that many of our players are fat and lazy).
(I'm no expert but) There is a lot to "fitness".... how quickly you can recover from big efforts, how many big efforts you can get through before you are done, how big an effort you can do and for how long and how long you can go at an intermediate pace before you are done.
IMO several players appear to be falling over after one too many big efforts. They hit a limit and that's it, they can no longer perform at a decent level even when not pushed. Players come out hard perform well and then fall off a cliff. Even a stint on the bench or at half time doesn't help, they never bounce back.
I think it's hard to criticise most of the team's fitness but I do think that there is something wrong with the balance (especially in the forwards), either in the areas they strong and weak in, or in the tactics that see them get burnt out so quickly. I also wonder if the time and distance that some members need to get to and from training impacts on their ability to train (thinking fo Kristie Fulton's comments to Schuster here).

Yeah hitting the wall is as much to do with mental energy.

It's the mentality of the group and the individuals/leaders within it.

This is what our limit is. This is what we are capable of doing. The great players push the good players to keep going. And the good players push the not so good (limited) players to keep going, emotionally, mentally and physically.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Ballin generally benefited from being in much stronger Manly sides than Croker has played in. He wasn’t anything special skill wise, Croker has it on him there. I cannot recall Ballin kicking a 40/20 or chipping and chasing to score a try, which Croker is capable of.

Ballin simply came from a smaller footballing gene pool - Queensland - with only Smith ahead of him and perhaps only the moptopped bloke from the Cowboys vying with him as Smith’s replacement. Plus he was a supremely fit and dedicated player with a high work rate.

Just like Croker.

Stronger across the park yes, but individual talent wise Turbo , Jake, DCE are way better as individual players compared to the crop back then. Stewart bros, Choc, aside from Steve Menzies and Lyon barely played any Origin footy.
If Croker was born in QLD, he would still be at the back of the cue as far as hookers go.
Both Croker and Ballin, play similarly but Ballin had quick service and was not error prone with the ball.