Jatz Crackers
First Grader
Ryan said:
I thought I did that ?
2013 Forwards
- Thread starter mickqld
- Start date
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I thought I did that ?
voicefromthehill
Bencher
globaleagle said:
Mate I said the same in another thread in response to the same criticisms. The problem is it immediately negated the argument so it was ignored.
voicefromthehill
Bencher
How good is Reynolds going!!!!!
IQofalimabean
Bencher
Not better than Foran lollolol. Fact.
Ryan
Journey Man
Jatz, replying now mate - been flat out with renno's, beach and things, so haven't had time since yesterday. I have no idea how to slice a post and reply in bits like you, so will reply this way (hard work though ! LoL).
J: But we made it to the game prior to the grand final and beat all but 2 of the other 16 teams in the process. Why is it you dont mention the games we won ? Unless you demand we win the comp & nothing else is good enough that makes your points moot now doesnt it. We were 80 mins away from the big one.
R: I believe we should have had a much better record, especially against teams that were floundering at the time. We won some fantastic games, but my expectation of this team, is that we do so, and I've certainly taken injury / suspension into the equation. I know it may be naive, but I was almost thinking our team would go through with 1-4 losses all season. As far as BIG games go, people want me to take out the WCC, so fair enough. One final win from three doesn't cut it with our roster. Apart from Wolfman, we were pretty well full strength.
J: Well that just doesnt stack up. Our bench lineup is hardly star studded now is it. Compare it to say, 14. Ryan Hinchcliffe 15. Kevin Proctor 16. Jaiman Lowe 17. Richie Fa'aoso. How about a comparison of them v us. The 1st bench totals 474 NRL games & 8 Rep jumpers versus our Manly bench of 218 NRL games & 0 Rep jumpers (if you discount the mickey mouse PM13 & All Stars for George & Vics Italian). There is no comparison there & your argument fails.
R: Mate, our bench and depth are outstanding (legacy from Crusher imo). I see what I see. If Rose can't break into the line-up, we are doing extra ordinarily well. Buhrer, Lussick, Galuvao and one of Rose, L Foran, Mauro, Cunningham etc. Come on, most teams would die for that. I rate our bench as one of the biggest assets in our team.
J: Really ? Your focus is on "no better then 4th" ? And lets isolate this to facts rather than Forans alleged contract negotiations which just muddy the waters rather than address the debate which is about the merits of the teams 2012 season, which ended in one place off the grand final.
R: I think we are debating different things. Yes, we made it one game away from the GF. BUT, that doesn't detract from some pretty poor defensive efforts, losses against horrid teams, and our finals performance, that left me thinking Bellamy and Hasler had it WELL over Toovey in tactics and ability. Our team is too much of the same thing that happened the season before. We did as well as we did based upon the outstanding class on the field.
J: Nothing to do with this season or our next years team (especially forwards) which this thread is supposed to be about.
R: Fair enough, but I hope as a brand, we learned something over the past 2-3 years, including the way contracts are drawn up, and negotiated. Personally, I think we have done that. The way our players contracts are almost done through the media is horrid. Look at Cronk. There was a rumour he may go to one of the QLD teams (forget who), but he smashed that down straight away.
J: Reynold is not a better 5/8 than Foran because of where others sides may or not have worked out various Manly team mates games. Youve lost your point here.
R: Sorry, I disagree. Ok, Foran to a lesser degree, but opposition teams know, and knew this past season what to expect, and could draw a game plan to suit that. His impact this season was less than it was last. Same goes for Watmough and Stewart. If we roll out the same strategies next season, they'll fall down the pecking order quality wise, and will start missing rep selections etc.
J: Why ? Just because Hasler might make Reynolds better next season doesnt mean he is a better player than Foran now. What on earth are you basing this contention on. For the life of me you have me lost on this one. One only has to look at the record of each player. Nuff said as they say. Gaurantee you Reynolds isnt worth $600k and in comparison Foran $250k. Laughable.
R: Ok, I'll concede here. Those numbers are pretty off. I missed the first half of the GF yesterday, and only caught bits of the second (my interest in a Dogs / Storm GF was nominal given all that has past), but Reynolds in that second half was outstanding I thought. That being said, there is no way in hell I believe DCE and Foran are worth 30 odd % of our salary cap. Like I said, I'd rather us take a shot at Drinkwater with DCE, and retain 2-3 of the players we had to let go.
J: This tells me youve based your assessment on Tooves purely on emotion and suspicion & nought on facts. The AFL reference pours acid on the remainder of any point your trying to make.
R: Again here, I disagree. I made the reference to The Swans, because they, too have a relatively rookie coach, and The Swans had important injuries through the year, but that wasn't rolled out as an excuse to lose big games. Also, The Swans midfield plays entirely different to what it did 12 months ago. Their flooding tackling. The commentators brushed on it in their GF, suggesting it was a new way of doing things. I believe whilst Toovey is new, he should tried new things, rather than more of the same. It's why I believe Foran had less time, G Stewart looked out of sorts this year, Watmough went back to crabbing etc etc etc.
J: OK so your worried. Im more focused about when it is that we rebuild (the word you didnt want to hear) or are we trying to maintain at the crest of our past wave. We cant stay at the top permanently and at some point we must regress to regroup and commence the rise once again. This is not Tooveys fault or Forans fault or even the collective management. Its a sporting vital statistic.
R: Again, LoL, I disagree. Why? Our roster, and even the older players are just too damned good for that. We can re-tool our roster, given the outstanding spine (Foran, DCE, Ballin and Stewart). What I mean by that, is we should be able to lose one to two players per season, introduce a rookie or so, and remain strong for a very ling time. BUT, again, our coach needs to be innovative, and stay ahead of the opposition. Our coach needs to be able to tweek G Stewart's play to remain at the front of his game. Jatz, if Toovey DOESN'T do that, in my opinion, he's not getting the best out of his team, and he's not developing their careers.
J: I agree with you that we are the crossroads in terms of our forwards & I agree with you that Hasler has formulated a unique "forward playing halves" style at the dogs.
Lets take out of the debate, Foran & DCE as they are backs. We know what we want from our forwards and our game plan has worked over the last number of years built on the incredibly efficient defense of our pigs and their rather unspectactacular but sufficient attack.
To nullify that we need mobility in the forwards & a new structure in defense as the key changes. I look at it & wonder at haslers half playing forwards today but in terms of this debate, what are we meant to do ? Hang Toovey out to dry because he hasnt figured out a responsive game plan yet ?
In any case, we are in good hands. I do not share your concerns about the coach as yet because its way to early to make judgement.
In terms of our halves, Im sorry but I just cant come anywhere close to seeing your point, let alone agree with you. I think in the reverse & see that our 7 & 6 with their cool heads will be our biggest future assett.
For mine this off season is all about introducing new blood into the forwards & making small structural changes that lead us to quicker rucks and speedier halves play to the fringe forwards/backline.
Either that or "rebuild" lol. Why not look to how we can structure a rebuild Ryan and start a thread about that. I tried it some time ago but people didnt get it. Maybe you could write it up in a way that gets us all thinking ?
R: Disagree with you there. Why are we at a cross-roads? We still have on paper one of the best rosters in the NRL. We still have the quality forwards (retaining Harrison & Lussick would have been nice). We just need methodology, and a game plan that other NRL teams haven't seen.
Honestly mate, we have a Ferrari here with our team. Ok, there are some Mercedes and Audi teams out there, but ours is certainly a Ferrari. What we need though, is an A-grade driver, because if we put my next door neighbour in it to drive, and the Mercedes and Audi's have Peter Brock (when alive) driving the merc, and The Stig the Audi, we are going to struggle, Ferrari or no.
These are just my opinions of coarse, and may be very off. People oft tell me how wrong I am, and I have had past posts re-hashed that were almost cringe worthy. Similar to when I was critiquing Lowey, I hope I'm wrong.
Lastly, if a poster uses "you", then there is a derogatory comment of any kind (Frank for example), there will be no reaction, nor will there be a reply from this point. I'll try and weed out the kiddies.
J: But we made it to the game prior to the grand final and beat all but 2 of the other 16 teams in the process. Why is it you dont mention the games we won ? Unless you demand we win the comp & nothing else is good enough that makes your points moot now doesnt it. We were 80 mins away from the big one.
R: I believe we should have had a much better record, especially against teams that were floundering at the time. We won some fantastic games, but my expectation of this team, is that we do so, and I've certainly taken injury / suspension into the equation. I know it may be naive, but I was almost thinking our team would go through with 1-4 losses all season. As far as BIG games go, people want me to take out the WCC, so fair enough. One final win from three doesn't cut it with our roster. Apart from Wolfman, we were pretty well full strength.
J: Well that just doesnt stack up. Our bench lineup is hardly star studded now is it. Compare it to say, 14. Ryan Hinchcliffe 15. Kevin Proctor 16. Jaiman Lowe 17. Richie Fa'aoso. How about a comparison of them v us. The 1st bench totals 474 NRL games & 8 Rep jumpers versus our Manly bench of 218 NRL games & 0 Rep jumpers (if you discount the mickey mouse PM13 & All Stars for George & Vics Italian). There is no comparison there & your argument fails.
R: Mate, our bench and depth are outstanding (legacy from Crusher imo). I see what I see. If Rose can't break into the line-up, we are doing extra ordinarily well. Buhrer, Lussick, Galuvao and one of Rose, L Foran, Mauro, Cunningham etc. Come on, most teams would die for that. I rate our bench as one of the biggest assets in our team.
J: Really ? Your focus is on "no better then 4th" ? And lets isolate this to facts rather than Forans alleged contract negotiations which just muddy the waters rather than address the debate which is about the merits of the teams 2012 season, which ended in one place off the grand final.
R: I think we are debating different things. Yes, we made it one game away from the GF. BUT, that doesn't detract from some pretty poor defensive efforts, losses against horrid teams, and our finals performance, that left me thinking Bellamy and Hasler had it WELL over Toovey in tactics and ability. Our team is too much of the same thing that happened the season before. We did as well as we did based upon the outstanding class on the field.
J: Nothing to do with this season or our next years team (especially forwards) which this thread is supposed to be about.
R: Fair enough, but I hope as a brand, we learned something over the past 2-3 years, including the way contracts are drawn up, and negotiated. Personally, I think we have done that. The way our players contracts are almost done through the media is horrid. Look at Cronk. There was a rumour he may go to one of the QLD teams (forget who), but he smashed that down straight away.
J: Reynold is not a better 5/8 than Foran because of where others sides may or not have worked out various Manly team mates games. Youve lost your point here.
R: Sorry, I disagree. Ok, Foran to a lesser degree, but opposition teams know, and knew this past season what to expect, and could draw a game plan to suit that. His impact this season was less than it was last. Same goes for Watmough and Stewart. If we roll out the same strategies next season, they'll fall down the pecking order quality wise, and will start missing rep selections etc.
J: Why ? Just because Hasler might make Reynolds better next season doesnt mean he is a better player than Foran now. What on earth are you basing this contention on. For the life of me you have me lost on this one. One only has to look at the record of each player. Nuff said as they say. Gaurantee you Reynolds isnt worth $600k and in comparison Foran $250k. Laughable.
R: Ok, I'll concede here. Those numbers are pretty off. I missed the first half of the GF yesterday, and only caught bits of the second (my interest in a Dogs / Storm GF was nominal given all that has past), but Reynolds in that second half was outstanding I thought. That being said, there is no way in hell I believe DCE and Foran are worth 30 odd % of our salary cap. Like I said, I'd rather us take a shot at Drinkwater with DCE, and retain 2-3 of the players we had to let go.
J: This tells me youve based your assessment on Tooves purely on emotion and suspicion & nought on facts. The AFL reference pours acid on the remainder of any point your trying to make.
R: Again here, I disagree. I made the reference to The Swans, because they, too have a relatively rookie coach, and The Swans had important injuries through the year, but that wasn't rolled out as an excuse to lose big games. Also, The Swans midfield plays entirely different to what it did 12 months ago. Their flooding tackling. The commentators brushed on it in their GF, suggesting it was a new way of doing things. I believe whilst Toovey is new, he should tried new things, rather than more of the same. It's why I believe Foran had less time, G Stewart looked out of sorts this year, Watmough went back to crabbing etc etc etc.
J: OK so your worried. Im more focused about when it is that we rebuild (the word you didnt want to hear) or are we trying to maintain at the crest of our past wave. We cant stay at the top permanently and at some point we must regress to regroup and commence the rise once again. This is not Tooveys fault or Forans fault or even the collective management. Its a sporting vital statistic.
R: Again, LoL, I disagree. Why? Our roster, and even the older players are just too damned good for that. We can re-tool our roster, given the outstanding spine (Foran, DCE, Ballin and Stewart). What I mean by that, is we should be able to lose one to two players per season, introduce a rookie or so, and remain strong for a very ling time. BUT, again, our coach needs to be innovative, and stay ahead of the opposition. Our coach needs to be able to tweek G Stewart's play to remain at the front of his game. Jatz, if Toovey DOESN'T do that, in my opinion, he's not getting the best out of his team, and he's not developing their careers.
J: I agree with you that we are the crossroads in terms of our forwards & I agree with you that Hasler has formulated a unique "forward playing halves" style at the dogs.
Lets take out of the debate, Foran & DCE as they are backs. We know what we want from our forwards and our game plan has worked over the last number of years built on the incredibly efficient defense of our pigs and their rather unspectactacular but sufficient attack.
To nullify that we need mobility in the forwards & a new structure in defense as the key changes. I look at it & wonder at haslers half playing forwards today but in terms of this debate, what are we meant to do ? Hang Toovey out to dry because he hasnt figured out a responsive game plan yet ?
In any case, we are in good hands. I do not share your concerns about the coach as yet because its way to early to make judgement.
In terms of our halves, Im sorry but I just cant come anywhere close to seeing your point, let alone agree with you. I think in the reverse & see that our 7 & 6 with their cool heads will be our biggest future assett.
For mine this off season is all about introducing new blood into the forwards & making small structural changes that lead us to quicker rucks and speedier halves play to the fringe forwards/backline.
Either that or "rebuild" lol. Why not look to how we can structure a rebuild Ryan and start a thread about that. I tried it some time ago but people didnt get it. Maybe you could write it up in a way that gets us all thinking ?
R: Disagree with you there. Why are we at a cross-roads? We still have on paper one of the best rosters in the NRL. We still have the quality forwards (retaining Harrison & Lussick would have been nice). We just need methodology, and a game plan that other NRL teams haven't seen.
Honestly mate, we have a Ferrari here with our team. Ok, there are some Mercedes and Audi teams out there, but ours is certainly a Ferrari. What we need though, is an A-grade driver, because if we put my next door neighbour in it to drive, and the Mercedes and Audi's have Peter Brock (when alive) driving the merc, and The Stig the Audi, we are going to struggle, Ferrari or no.
These are just my opinions of coarse, and may be very off. People oft tell me how wrong I am, and I have had past posts re-hashed that were almost cringe worthy. Similar to when I was critiquing Lowey, I hope I'm wrong.
Lastly, if a poster uses "you", then there is a derogatory comment of any kind (Frank for example), there will be no reaction, nor will there be a reply from this point. I'll try and weed out the kiddies.
eagles2win
Bencher
Watching the Koori knockout at the mo and the Newcastle team have a good prop
| Team | P | W | L | PD | Pts |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
6 | 5 | 1 | 20 | 12 |
|
6 | 4 | 2 | 53 | 10 |
|
5 | 4 | 1 | 23 | 10 |
|
6 | 4 | 2 | 48 | 8 |
|
6 | 4 | 2 | 28 | 8 |
|
5 | 3 | 2 | 14 | 8 |
|
7 | 4 | 3 | -18 | 8 |
|
6 | 3 | 2 | 21 | 7 |
|
7 | 3 | 3 | 20 | 7 |
|
7 | 3 | 4 | 31 | 6 |
|
6 | 3 | 3 | 16 | 6 |
|
5 | 2 | 3 | -15 | 6 |
|
7 | 3 | 4 | -41 | 6 |
|
6 | 2 | 4 | -5 | 4 |
|
6 | 2 | 4 | -7 | 4 |
|
6 | 1 | 5 | -102 | 4 |
|
5 | 0 | 5 | -86 | 2 |
