2013 Forwards

[mickqld]

How will our 2013 forwards shape up. There's obviously some changes due to losing Tdog,Lussick,Harrison and possibly some others. Out of King,Kite,Joe,Rose,Mauro 3 need to go. We need Kite to stay he is our forward leader but it looks like he will have to go. I would rather King go than Kite but that won't happen.
Joe has served us well but time and injuries hit him hard this year.
I don't think we can carry him another season. Rose is a player of the pre 90's he isn't the type of player we need. Out of Mauro and King well King is the captain so he's not going anywhere.
The loss of Lussick is bad he has potential to be a big strong but fast and agile prop probably the prototype modern prop of the future.
Have we retained Tim Robinson,James Cunnigham,Magnus Stromquist ?
I'm really hoping that Jake Trbojevic (Turbo) may be able to step up but he may still be too young. Chee-Kam I think will get a go as will Ligi Sao.
The backline picks itself but the forwards will be very interesting. I think 2V is going to go for some youth and mobility.
8. King
9. Ballin
10.Robinson
11. Choc
12.Chee-Kam (Cheech)
13. Gift

14. Mauro
15. Buhrer
16. Fa'aoso
17. Sao
18. Stromquist
19. Turbo
20. Skinner
21. Cunningham

 

[Ryan]

For mine:-
Also, what I have done, is place a plus (needs improvement) or minus (is more than satisfactory) sign to suggest if I think they need to improve or not. If I have left it blank, I am happy with their form, and they can remain as is:-


08. Jason King +
09. Matt Ballin
10. Brent Kite -
11. Anthony Watmough ++
12.
13. Glenn Stewart +++

14. Jamie Buhrer ++
15. Richie Fa'oso
16. George Rose +
17. Joe Galuvao

Remember, if Kite goes to The Tigers, word has it we may get a forward like Groat in return. I'd then have Galuvao starting, then Groat on the bench.

I left a spot open for a player to grab. One rookie does not hurt the chemistry of the team too much.

Of all our prospects / reserves, I believe the following have the potential to step up next season:-

+ Ligi Sao
+ Michael Chee Kam
+ Vic Mauro
+ James Cunningham
+ Junior Palau
+ Nick Skinner
+ Liam Foran
+ Jake Trbojevic
+ Liam Higgins

For the above reasons, I want to see no excuses, or the word "re-build" being used. That is a quality pack, with again, quality depth.

Toovey and the club have an excellent breeding ground to choose from. With the right environment, there is no reason we can't fight it out with the likes of The Bulldogs for the minor premiership.

There are also a number of NYC forwards turning 21 next season, so I believe a number will transition to reserve grade.

 

[mickqld]

Problem there Ryan is Snake's contract isn't going to be registered till we unload 1or 2 top 17 forwards and a couple of reserves. Kite,Joe,Rose,Mauro,Robinson 2 or 3 will have to go.

 

[Ryan]

I don't believe that. We made offers for T Williams, and D Lussick, have lost both, as well as Whare, Oldfield, Harrison & others, and the caps going up.

I also assure people the club wouldn't have signed Fa'oso, Sao and Chee Kam if they anticipated losing players like Kite. These three players will be part of the top 25 paid players at the club.

Lastly, I repeat, the cap has gone up greatly.

I still say we paid way overs for our halves. What would have happened if The Dogs signed T Williams and K Foran to $600k - $650k contracts each? Would Reynolds be playing reggies next season?

Also, Reynolds will be lost to The Dogs next year because of guys like Inu, Perrett and Williams. He'll be demanding $600k plus as well, because frankly, he's a better 5/8 than Kieran (without rose coloured glasses on).

In my view, The Bulldogs hamstrung us with the battle over Foran. He's a $250k-325k player tops. Same goes for DCE. I would have rathered us re-sign 2-3 of the younger forwards we already had like Harrison, Lussick and maybe kept Whare, and bought up Drinkwater, on 100k per or something.

If we now lose Kite, we have paid a very hefty price for yeah, what I personally believe are extremely good halves.

My whole issue with that, is we then need little or lesser known players to step up (see Melbourne Storm). For that to occur, you need a marticulous coach. In my opinion, we are far from having one of those (on the Bellamy / Hasler levels).

I assimilate Toovey to the Steve Folkes, Brad Fittler, David Furner type of mould. Yeah, absolute club legends, and passionate about the brand, but a hell of a lot of their success depends on the quality and depth of their roster.

Fortunately for us, our roster quality at present is outstanding, BUT it is thinning. The true acid test of Geoff Toovey will be in the coming years.

I was told I was wrong about the long term viability of Lowey. I hope I'm wrong about this.

 

[SeaEagle007]

Robinson is has also gone to Parra I heard.

 

[Napper]

Choc -----> left edge then he will fulfill your improvement needs.

Im told 6+ NYC kids will be re-signed to play NSW cup next year too!! Good news. Couple rough diamonds in that side but i believe our NYC side next year will have a few real stars. As you said, toovs will be having a few selection headaches over the next couple years.

---

I don't believe that. We made offers for T Williams, and D Lussick, have lost both, as well as Whare, Oldfield, Harrison & others, and the caps going up.

I also assure people the club wouldn't have signed Fa'oso, Sao and Chee Kam if they anticipated losing players like Kite. These three players will be part of the top 25 paid players at the club.

Lastly, I repeat, the cap has gone up greatly.

I still say we paid way overs for our halves. What would have happened if The Dogs signed T Williams and K Foran to $600k - $650k contracts each? Would Reynolds be playing reggies next season?

Also, Reynolds will be lost to The Dogs next year because of guys like Inu, Perrett and Williams. He'll be demanding $600k plus as well, because frankly, he's a better 5/8 than Kieran (without rose coloured glasses on).

In my view, The Bulldogs hamstrung us with the battle over Foran. He's a $250k-325k player tops. Same goes for DCE. I would have rathered us re-sign 2-3 of the younger forwards we already had like Harrison, Lussick and maybe kept Whare, and bought up Drinkwater, on 100k per or something.

If we now lose Kite, we have paid a very hefty price for yeah, what I personally believe are extremely good halves.

My whole issue with that, is we then need little or lesser known players to step up (see Melbourne Storm). For that to occur, you need a marticulous coach. In my opinion, we are far from having one of those (on the Bellamy / Hasler levels).

I assimilate Toovey to the Steve Folkes, Brad Fittler, David Furner type of mould. Yeah, absolute club legends, and passionate about the brand, but a hell of a lot of their success depends on the quality and depth of their roster.

Fortunately for us, our roster quality at present is outstanding, BUT it is thinning. The true acid test of Geoff Toovey will be in the coming years.

I was told I was wrong about the long term viability of Lowey. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Reynolds is a better 5/8 than Foran. YOU ARE KIDDING!!!

---

Cronk is the only half better than Kieran Foran. End of story.

 

[winnyason]

Your kidding me as well, let's get serious. Anyone think Faaoso is a starter been never given the opotunity anywhere else, if we get 20 good minutes a half out of him then they could give us a real platform.

 

[Ryan]

Your kidding me as well, let's get serious. Anyone think Faaoso is a starter been never given the opotunity anywhere else, if we get 20 good minutes a half out of him then they could give us a real platform.

Who's put him in as a starter?

 

[MPC75]

I don't agree at all that Reynolds is a better player than Foran. Last time I checked Foran is an international. Just because Reynolds is playing out of his ass this year doesn't make him a better player.

 

[winnyason]

i don't know your the telling everyone josh reynolds is better than kieran foran?

 

[ERNIE FOR NO7]

I don't believe that. We made offers for T Williams, and D Lussick, have lost both, as well as Whare, Oldfield, Harrison & others, and the caps going up.

I also assure people the club wouldn't have signed Fa'oso, Sao and Chee Kam if they anticipated losing players like Kite. These three players will be part of the top 25 paid players at the club.

(on the Bellamy / Hasler levels).

I

Ryan, It was assumed that Wolfie and another were leaving. Both advised they were close to siging ESL contracts and their deals fell over.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Ryan, Ballin need a big + beside his name

Defence is rock solid, but massive room for improvement in attack, especially close to the line and his kicking game

 

[Jatz Crackers]

I don't believe that. We made offers for T Williams, and D Lussick, have lost both, as well as Whare, Oldfield, Harrison & others, and the caps going up.

I also assure people the club wouldn't have signed Fa'oso, Sao and Chee Kam if they anticipated losing players like Kite. These three players will be part of the top 25 paid players at the club.

We also upgraded a fair few players & the cap isnt going up that much.

Lastly, I repeat, the cap has gone up greatly.

No it hasnt. Its going from $4.4m in 2012 to $5m in 2013. When you factor in where our playing group is, it doesnt take much to see where the extra $600k is going. Take DCE for example. He was on a mere pittance and then we had to pay market rates for a premiership winning halfback.

I still say we paid way overs for our halves. What would have happened if The Dogs signed T Williams and K Foran to $600k - $650k contracts each? Would Reynolds be playing reggies next season?

I dont know how you can say we are paying overs. Both our halves are high quality. They are amongst the best in this business. Who cares what the dogs would or wouldnt do with Reynolds. He hasnt done anywhere near enough to warrant a comparison.

Also, Reynolds will be lost to The Dogs next year because of guys like Inu, Perrett and Williams. He'll be demanding $600k plus as well, because frankly, he's a better 5/8 than Kieran (without rose coloured glasses on).

Like everyone has said......you cant be serious about Reynolds being better than Foran. What possessed you to come up with that and what do you have to support that statement. And why on earth do you have Reynolds forecasted next year on $600k but our own half on $250-325k. Sorry Ryan, but that is one of the silliest things ive heard in quite some time.

In my view, The Bulldogs hamstrung us with the battle over Foran. He's a $250k-325k player tops. Same goes for DCE. I would have rathered us re-sign 2-3 of the younger forwards we already had like Harrison, Lussick and maybe kept Whare, and bought up Drinkwater, on 100k per or something.

If you threw those figures at either DCE or Foran back then we would not now be looking forward to this teams future with them as our halves combination. Disatrous negotiation that would have been & you would have been spitting chips at our management.

If we now lose Kite, we have paid a very hefty price for yeah, what I personally believe are extremely good halves.

We are at the apex of our salary cycle. No matter who we lose, the price we will have paid is strictly related to salary cap & not paying overs.

My whole issue with that, is we then need little or lesser known players to step up (see Melbourne Storm). For that to occur, you need a marticulous coach. In my opinion, we are far from having one of those (on the Bellamy / Hasler levels).

I assimilate Toovey to the Steve Folkes, Brad Fittler, David Furner type of mould. Yeah, absolute club legends, and passionate about the brand, but a hell of a lot of their success depends on the quality and depth of their roster.

Ryan, youve been saying he wont cut it since the 2012 trials. 1 full season on & youve been proven wrong about him, yet your take on his abilities hasnt changed. Cant help but put it down to your dislike of the man and quite frankly (especially after this tough intro season he has just had) the bloke deserves some encouraging support.

Fortunately for us, our roster quality at present is outstanding, BUT it is thinning. The true acid test of Geoff Toovey will be in the coming years.

I dont believe coaches can take no-name players & turn them into great footballers until they themselves have learnt the coaching trade over a number of seasons. Hasler sure couldnt do that in his first year or 2. So Toovey has one good season out of one, so far. Theres is nothing to say he will fall away as a coach in line with our changes in the squad over the next 12-24 months.

I was told I was wrong about the long term viability of Lowey. I hope I'm wrong about this.

No offense but I think you are. Have you got anything concrete to back up some of these assessments your making.

 

[IQofalimabean]

Ryan's second post was a shocker, so i will focus on the original poster.
This would be my team for next year.
08.King
09.Ballin
10.Faoso
11.Watmough
12.Galavou (to start then add Buhrer)
13.Stewart

14.Buhrer
15.Rose
16.Stromquist
17. (someone with first grade experience)

 

[Utility Player]

Why not start Buhrer, he is a SOO rep after all, if Joe is still around he could come on 15 minutes before and after half time.

 

[Ryan]

Well thought out comments Jatz, but we differ in opinion on a few stand points mate. Remember, I'm just debating here, and I'm not trying to upset anyone, but here goes.

I consider this season a disappointment on various fronts. I know I've beaten the drum on many occasions, but we lost 2 out of three finals, we lost a WCC, and we lost to various very poor teams in the season proper that we shouldn't have.

People have answered that with, "we have had injury / suspension". Sure, we have, I can't argue that. BUT, what teams can inject the likes of Mauro, Whare, Lussick, Rose and co. in as depth?

I think we should have done better than fourth. I believe we should be current world champions. I believe we are better than winning 33% of our finals matches.

That leads me onto Foran and Daly Cherry-Evans. In my opinion, Daly has had a pretty poor season overall, and for him to threaten in any way that he'd head to The Bronco's if his contract wasn't upgraded outraged me as a fan. Less focus on that, and more on the field, and we may have beaten some of those lower placed teams.

The Foran contract debacle was terrible. Hearing Foran was having dinner with his mate in Belmore, hearing from his own mouth how close he was in following his prodige. It was inappropriate for my liking. I'm Manly to the core, and to hear players questioning their loyalty to us and the brand sucks. I know that's very old fashioned, and probably naive, but it detracted from my enjoyment as a fan and member of the team to be honest.

In regards to Foran vs. Reynolds. I personally believe a number of our players this year have been worked out. Foran, G Stewart, Watmough and Daly included in that group. One thing I believe Hasler had a knack of, was transitioning his sides, to stay ahead of the opposition. Both our halves lacked time with the ball, and looked devoid of options at times.

With that in mind, the acid test will be on Reynolds next season. His running game, and support style will be looked at, but I'm betting Des will work closely with him to refine his style, and change it enough to stay ahead of the game.

I guess that means, with all due respect, "at present", Reynolds is a better 5/8 than Foran in my opinion. That's as it stands right now.

That leads me to then consider Toovey's position. Is he quality enough to change his players style, or be innovative enough, to keep our All Star roster ahead of the rest? Look at The Swans coach. He was able to do so. For that reason, I say this year was a failure, because my honest opinion is that we have, and by some means, the best roster, and depth in the NRL, and that includes The Storm and Dogs, who basically picked us apart in those finals, as did the ESL team the WCC.

RE: Salary cap. Mate, a $600k increase is pretty substantial. If we are having to off-load players, considering what I believe to be a regression this year in form, what is next season going to look like?

That leads me to the forwards. We HAVE the players. Do we have the structure, and strategy to beat the opposition? Where does that come from?

What I DO know, is Foran, G Stewart, DCE and others need guidance on how to manipulate their games, to remain at their peak.

Dessie has his forwards working almost as halves. He has a decoy runner, playing OFF the forwards, but with two passes wide. It's unique. It's something other teams aren't used to.

Our forwards went through the motions this season, and in big games, were found out horribly. This meant opposition teams were all over Foran.

At this point in time, that doesn't seem to be the case with Reynolds.

That's all.

And to the others, this is a good healthy debate. Let's keep it along those lines, rather than regressing it into name calling and abuse.

Cheers guys.

 

[IQofalimabean]

Why not start Buhrer, he is a SOO rep after all, if Joe is still around he could come on 15 minutes before and after half time.

Yeah it would work that way too.

 

[the mauler]

Lol.... Reynolds better then Foz. Put the pipe down Ryan it's bad for your health.

 

[IQofalimabean]

I think we should have done better than fourth. I believe we should be current world champions. I believe we are better than winning 33% of our finals matches.

That leads me onto Foran and Daly Cherry-Evans. In my opinion, Daly has had a pretty poor season overall, and for him to threaten in any way that he'd head to The Bronco's if his contract wasn't upgraded outraged me as a fan. Less focus on that, and more on the field, and we may have beaten some of those lower placed teams.

You have high expectations given that it was Toovey's first year. We looked likely to beat the Bulldogs until Lyon went off and the Bulldogs exploited Manly's right side defence. And against the Storm in Melbourne, Manly has only won twice, there is a number of reasons for that. Lastly, DCE had a lot more pressure on him this year given that for a number of games Foran was out injured. But his long kicking game was still quality and a reason as to why Manly made the finals.

 

[Shoe1]

I appreciate your passion Ryan, but I am dreading the interminable debate and navel gazing that you traditionally bring to the off season. Bring it on though.