Walker cleared to play.

[MadMarcus]

Bear, if human is chasing your Mrs and baby around the front yard over a f....ing video game or filming a woman and sending it to all your mates without her permission. I’ll give that strain of humanity a miss thanks.

It’s pretty simple. If you f...ck up you should cop it and get suspended; if you keep doing it you are a fool and you lose the privileged position you have. It ain’t hard. If you do these things in most private sector work places you’ll get punted real quick , why should it be different for them.Time these clowns learnt a lesson.Leave the criminal stuff for the courts to sort out and suspend them for being grubs for a time commensurate with their antics.
It a crazy thing called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY

I agree with you entirely, but it makes me wonder if Andrew Johns was playing in this era what would he have got up to and would anyone have thrown the book at him? Despite all the fanfare I think a player of his caliber would still get away with murder.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

This from the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights under Article 14 (2)
'The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle of the common law.

The UN Human Rights Committee has stated that the presumption of innocence imposes on the prosecution the burden of proving the charge and guarantees that no guilt can be presumed until the charge has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

The Committee has also stated that public authorities should refrain from prejudging the outcome of a trial by making public statements affirming the guilt of the accused, and that the media should avoid news coverage undermining the presumption of innocence.'

Read into it what you will.

As I said, it should not be assumed that Walker is guilty of his criminal charges. And (probably like you) I'm sick of the media releasing details on criminal charges when cases are still being carried out. But your missing (or ignoring) my point....Walker's actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a significantly negative impact on his employer's businesses and they have a right to act on his behavior, if only to protect themselves against public sentiment. If Walker believes that this is unfair then he has the right to contest any action against him, as De Belin is (and in my opinion, at this stage, rightly so).
If found innocent, Walker should not be branded as a domestic violence offender, I have been to far many games with opposition fans calling Brett Stewart a rapist to tolerate this behavior regardless of who it is directed at. But regardless of the trial outcome, Walker's involvement in an incident like this is not fitting for a high profile media identity and there is every right for an employer to remove him from that role until there is enough clarity to determine the proper action.

 

[Bearfax]

As I said, it should not be assumed that Walker is guilty of his criminal charges. And (probably like you) I'm sick of the media releasing details on criminal charges when cases are still being carried out. But your missing (or ignoring) my point....Walker's actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a significantly negative impact on his employer's businesses and they have a right to act on his behavior, if only to protect themselves against public sentiment. If Walker believes that this is unfair then he has the right to contest any action against him, as De Belin is (and in my opinion, at this stage, rightly so).
If found innocent, Walker should not be branded as a domestic violence offender, I have been to far many games with opposition fans calling Brett Stewart a rapist to tolerate this behavior regardless of who it is directed at. But regardless of the trial outcome, Walker's involvement in an incident like this is not fitting for a high profile media identity and there is every right for an employer to remove him from that role until there is enough clarity to determine the proper action.

No I'm not missing the point Muzz. The statement 'Walkers actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a negative impact'. Sorry mate but that is the fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of presumed innocent. You cannot judge his actions without implying guilt. His actions are what the court is to deliberate on. You cant separate 'actions' from the 'charge' and presumption of innocence. That's where the NRL are at fault. They are prejudging 'actions' that are unproven, and are based in inconclusive evidence that must be judged in court. The claims made by the papers are in fact prejudging, by reporting material not tested in a trial, and therefore technically the media is acting illegally

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

No I'm not missing the point Muzz. The statement 'Walkers actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a negative impact'. Sorry mate but that is the fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of presumed innocent. You cannot judge his actions without implying guilt. His actions are what the court is to deliberate on. You cant separate 'actions' from the 'charge' and presumption of innocence. That's where the NRL are at fault. They are prejudging 'actions' that are unproven, and are based in inconclusive evidence that must be judged in court. The claims made by the papers are in fact prejudging, by reporting material not tested in a trial, and therefore technically the media is acting illegally

The crux of the matter, right there!!

 

[MuzztheEagle]

No I'm not missing the point Muzz. The statement 'Walkers actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a negative impact'. Sorry mate but that is the fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of presumed innocent. You cannot judge his actions without implying guilt. His actions are what the court is to deliberate on. You cant separate 'actions' from the 'charge' and presumption of innocence. That's where the NRL are at fault. They are prejudging 'actions' that are unproven, and are based in inconclusive evidence that must be judged in court. The claims made by the papers are in fact prejudging, by reporting material not tested in a trial, and therefore technically the media is acting illegally

And your implying that an employer can only take action if an employee if found guilty of a crime. Even if the incident in question was a complete misunderstanding it was his actions that led to the police laying charges against him. I agree with you the media is out of line in its reporting - but its too late the damage is done.

 

[Bearfax]

No I'm not missing the point Muzz. The statement 'Walkers actions, regardless of the court outcome, have had a negative impact'. Sorry mate but that is the fundamental misunderstanding of the issue of presumed innocent. You cannot judge his actions without implying guilt. His actions are what the court is to deliberate on. You cant separate 'actions' from the 'charge' and presumption of innocence. That's where the NRL are at fault. They are prejudging 'actions' that are unproven, and are based in inconclusive evidence that must be judged in court. The claims made by the papers are in fact prejudging, by reporting material not tested in a trial, and therefore technically the media is acting illegally

And your implying that an employer can only take action if an employee if found guilty of a crime. Even if the incident in question was a complete misunderstanding it was his actions that led to the police laying charges against him. I agree with you the media is out of line in its reporting - but its too late the damage is done.

Reasonable point. Certainly if the matter was clearly against the employer it could be understood if an employer wasn't wanting that person around anymore. But even here there is a risk that ensures the accused is not unfairly treated. Perfect example are the number of cases won such as the recent director of the ABC being dismissed on false grounds and ending up suing for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Technically a player wrongly suspended or cancelled without pay would have a case to sue for wrongful dismissal. My understanding of De Bellin is that he is suspended on full pay, which in part overcomes this issue. But there is still the case of denying a player his contracted employment. Imagine if Stewart had been suspended without pay, which almost happened. His case took almost 2 years to finalise. It was only fortuitous that he was injured for most of that time. My understanding though is he still sued the NRL but settled out of court (I may be incorrect here as that was second hand info). He certainly won two defamation cases against the Telegraph over the sex allegation matter and a match fixing allegation. I was a probation and parole officer and know of a few officers who were convicted for minor matters. No action was taken against them until their day in court. For serious matters I'm not sure what would happen, but probably suspended on full pay until the day in court. That certainly happens with police.

Actually I can give you a first hand case of people being charged industrially on false grounds. I was a union head at one stage and fought the Department at the Industrial Court regarding allegations of misconduct against two senior officers. The case was actually targeting by the then Commissioner on personal grounds and the matter dragged out for 2 years . The two officers suffered so badly they were finally pensioned off psychologically (they were both in their late fifties). They won their case against the Department and sued. One received $30,000 in a pay out. Slightly different but yet another example where the issue of presumption of innocence is not maintained.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

 

[Chip and Chase]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

If JDB gets an injunction it may just be for his specific case - not sure you can extrapolate it to all players who have been Turd Burgled. But depending on what the judge says it may encourage others to seek an injunction too. But if Walker becomes available then of course he plays.

 

[Woodsie]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

In my opinion ... first player picked ... with our limited backline and Tom out .... not to play him would be dumb

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

To me, Dylan's case is complicated and the complications have been compounded even further by the NRL's ridiculous new rules for players facing criminal charges and the fact that his trial is still ongoing. He was involved in a public incident involving his wife and child which, at the very least, should require an explanation to the fans and sponsors of the game. But he can't do that while the trial is ongoing as it would hurt his defense case. At the same time, if he was allowed to play by the club and NRL without this explanation then there a potential for a large amount of damage to be done to fan perceptions and future supporter numbers. Walker hasn't specifically been punished but removed from the spotlight until the matter can be properly resolved, however the NRL's handling of these issues and the wording used against those facing charges has been well out of line and likely done damage to the career's of these players before their cases have been finalized.
DeBellin can argue that the NRL has no supporting evidence to suggest that his indecent even occurred, which Dylan does not have the benefit of. He's out till the case is finished.

 

[brad]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

The can of worms will be opened . I'd say yes but the Jdb dealing might take a little longer then round 1.

 

[HappilyManly]

Riddle me this one Silvertailers.

Let’s say JDB wins the injunction ruling ( which would then nullify the Turdburger ruling) meaning all the affected players can play round 1.

Does Dylan them play ( subject to fitness of course)???

Not if Sponsors pull their monies. Manly's Sponsors were already reported as wanting Walker gone

This off season by these players have damaged the NRL long term.

The 105k minimum contract monies can be drastjcally reduced by the NRL in their next deal.

Manly's signing of TRex highlights the fact that Clubs will continue to hire players that have already tarnished the game .

Fans and Sponsors will continue to hold off on financially supporting the NRL

We will end up like Rugby if this continues

 

[Woodsie]

Not if Sponsors pull their monies. Manly's Sponsors were already reported as wanting Walker gone

This off season by these players have damaged the NRL long term.

The 105k minimum contract monies can be drastjcally reduced by the NRL in their next deal.

Manly's signing of TRex highlights the fact that Clubs will continue to hire players that have already tarnished the game .

Fans and Sponsors will continue to hold off on financially supporting the NRL

We will end up like Rugby if this continues

I think the moralists and doom-sayers either protest too much ... or are beating a self serving drum ...

In a week that the NRL has been crying the world is ending and sponsors and fans are deserting the game in droves ..... Cronulla announce a new major sponsor and record membership fiqures, and news released that at least 3 seperate groups have been keen to buy Manly ....

Perhaps any sponsors that are mumbling that they may pull out over Walker may have been better advised to not sponsor Rugby League in the first place ..... and we are truly ****ed if sponsors start to dictate who plays ....

.. And if De Belin wins his case and is picked to play ... I will back his first game back to be a ratings winner ... it's not right ... but it is fact ... Rugby League is a game that has always thrived on controversy and drama .....

 

[Bearfax]

If JDB gets an injunction it may just be for his specific case - not sure you can extrapolate it to all players who have been Turd Burgled. But depending on what the judge says it may encourage others to seek an injunction too. But if Walker becomes available then of course he plays.

I suspect the judgement will not be specific to De Bellin but will be a general interpretation of the Law as regards the rights of those yet to have their matter determined by the Court where an individual is claiming innocence. It will be all pervading and sets a precedent affecting all cases of this type. What ever the court decides will affect the NRL's no fault judgement one way or the other.

 

[Eagle thru 'n' thru]

If JDB gets an injunction it may just be for his specific case - not sure you can extrapolate it to all players who have been Turd Burgled. But depending on what the judge says it may encourage others to seek an injunction too. But if Walker becomes available then of course he plays.

".....all players who have been Turd Burgled....." damn thats funny, cracked me up. Thanks for that.

 

[Eagle thru 'n' thru]

I think the moralists and doom-sayers either protest too much ... or are beating a self serving drum ...

In a week that the NRL has been crying the world is ending and sponsors and fans are deserting the game in droves ..... Cronulla announce a new major sponsor and record membership fiqures, and news released that at least 3 seperate groups have been keen to buy Manly ....

Perhaps any sponsors that are mumbling that they may pull out over Walker may have been better advised to not sponsor Rugby League in the first place ..... and we are truly ****ed if sponsors start to dictate who plays ....

.. And if De Belin wins his case and is picked to play ... I will back his first game back to be a ratings winner ... it's not right ... but it is fact ... Rugby League is a game that has always thrived on controversy and drama .....

....and giving 2nd and 3rd chances to complete knob jockies.

 

[Woodsie]

....and giving 2nd and 3rd chances to complete knob jockies.

It has always been a matter of pride for Rugby league to be a hard "working class" game ... and one that traditionally has (like boxing) given some knob jockies a chance of redemption ... over the years many bad boys have grasped that opportunity with both hands and have gone on to be excellent citizens and leaders ... some have not.

I think the day rugby league as a game stops giving knob jockies a 2nd chance will be a day we remove another thread from the fabric of the game and continue to move closer to the eventual extinction of the game ....

PSS ... having said that I accept that there are some offences by there very nature that place them beyond the pail ....

 

[MuzztheEagle]

It has always been a matter of pride for Rugby league to be a hard "working class" game ... and one that traditionally has (like boxing) given some knob jockies a chance of redemption ... over the years many bad boys have grasped that opportunity with both hands and have gone on to be excellent citizens and leaders ... some have not.

I think the day rugby league as a game stops giving knob jockies a 2nd chance will be a day we remove another thread from the fabric of the game and continue to move closer to the eventual extinction of the game ....

PSS ... having said that I accept that there are some offences by there very nature that place them beyond the pail ....

So your suggesting that violence, drug abuse and criminal offenses are all part of working class culture? I'm proud of my working class heritage (from the docks of Hull and the very origins of the game) and accept that some things were different in the past. I also support second chances and opportunities for those who haven't had the best start in life (and to me this is a big part of what RL is about).
But to suggest that this bad boy culture is and should always be associated and made acceptable for some parts of society and not others is ridiculous, not to mention harmful. There are just as many middle class dickheads and probably even more at the top end, it's just easier to hide bad behavior when you have more money.

 

[Woodsie]

So your suggesting that violence, drug abuse and criminal offenses are all part of working class culture?

Please Muzz, don't put words in my mouth ..... I have not suggested anything of the sort .... but I do state emphatically that it has always been a trait of the working class culture to give someone a shot at making up for their mistakes ... a chance of redemption ....

But to suggest that this bad boy culture is and should always be associated and made acceptable for some parts of society and not others is ridiculous, not to mention harmful.

Never suggested any thing of the sort Muzz ... please!

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Please Muzz, don't put words in my mouth ..... I have not suggested anything of the sort .... but I do state emphatically that it has always been a trait of the working class culture to give someone a shot at making up for their mistakes ... a chance of redemption ....



Never suggested any thing of the sort Muzz ... please!

Apologies if I read too much into your post. I may have been somewhat pissed of about a quote from Malcolm Knox article you posted a couple of days ago. And I can't stand the idea that today's issues are being caused by a "PC obsessed" middle class dictating what the game should be. Many things have been lost and in danger of disappearing in our game and for me (and like the rest of society) it comes down to one thing a loss of community and respect in favour of $$$s. The money that players earn continues to grow exponentially and for the guys entering the game from disadvantaged backgrounds this must be an enormous change to deal with, while for those from privileged backgrounds it can support their misconception that they are better than most and above the law (there are plenty of examples here).
The opportunities and second chances that rugby league used to offer weren't just about money (not too long ago 1st grade RL was a second job for many) it was about becoming part of a community and becoming something more in society. Through the involvement of bigger money, generational change and potentially the loss of culture at clubs and misadministration at the top I do fear the culture of the game is being eroded. but I can't stand the suggestion that this is a class problem.