The Ruck

[maxta]

The main difference coming out of trouble against Penrith was simple - To'o and Turuva and lucky they didn't have Edwards joining the party.
These 3 blokes are a Massive part of Penriths success and every game the 3 teams will try gain an advantage here and Penrith beat every team in this department, setting up field position.
In the real tough games you will find May and Tago also making the tough runs from their own half and bending the line with almost every carry....not only helping win the temp/momentum, but saving much needed energy for their 6 men in the middle.
The other area of concern watching the 2 teams last weekend, was the energy and effort comparables and while Manly players looked lethargic, the Panthers were first off deck after tackling and also with the ball in hand....along with losing the collisions as already mentioned, it's a snowball effect that creates unstoppable momentum.

 

[Once Was Brissie Kid]

Copy the Moneyball tactic. Contract a NRL squad based solely on who gets away with everything, especially at the ruck. We all know which players we need to buy using this model.

 

[maxta]

Copy the Moneyball tactic. Contract a NRL squad based solely on who gets away with everything, especially at the ruck. We all know which players we need to buy using this model.

I think we are the ONLY attacking team who actually stands up and takes 2 steps back to help the defensive marker be onside....I'm not saying exploit the rule like most clubs do (in fact I am)....but we are soft in the ruck area right down to where we play the ball and get bullied by the attacker where "wants" to play it.....no wonder other teams have so much fun from dummy half against us and the edges become messy.
Maybe a specialist dummy half may help a little in this area also ?

 

[Once Was Brissie Kid]

I think we are the ONLY attacking team who actually stands up and takes 2 steps back to help the defensive marker be onside....I'm not saying exploit the rule like most clubs do (in fact I am)....but we are soft in the ruck area right down to where we play the ball and get bullied by the attacker where "wants" to play it.....no wonder other teams have so much fun from dummy half against us and the edges become messy.
Maybe a specialist dummy half may help a little in this area also ?

Seibs, like Hasler, are trying to win by having a rugby league playing team beat the opposing team. They need to realise you need a NRL playing team to succeed, not a regular footy team. And you need to not only beat the opposition to win at NRL, but also you need to beat or maximise the NRL rules, interpretations and referees.
No wonder so many older fans hate NRL footy.

 

[Eagle 1]

At the start of the season I thought Sipley wouldn’t make the best 17, than he was very good when he got his chance, post his knee injury he has been ordinary with his efforts in defence.

Sipley is a good ball runner, though he needs to be where he was with his defensive efforts earlier this season, I think he came back from injury to early and he looks sluggish at the moment.

The way Sips is now, just give it your all for 15min, then haul him off.

 

[Bringbackcliffy]

In 2019, it was the opposite - we had very weak outside backs but the Api-Nase combo with a beastly Marty-AFB pairing, saw us knock down the front door of some of the league's best defences that season. It was a thing of beauty, and when you go through the middle, you immediately become a serious footy team.

The current inverse of this is just touch footy. It's T20 cricket. No substance, no backbone. Having said that, if Seibold used his brain and at the least backed up this silliness by focusing on our defence, maybe we could actually pull this off. But no, not only do we have superficial attack, we have paper thin defence...the Manly Way

Couldn’t agree more. We like it loose. Assume the opponent will let us play and hope passes stick. Plan B is wait to get the ball back and try again

 

[LeonardCohen]

In 2019, it was the opposite - we had very weak outside backs but the Api-Nase combo with a beastly Marty-AFB pairing, saw us knock down the front door of some of the league's best defences that season. It was a thing of beauty, and when you go through the middle, you immediately become a serious footy team.

The current inverse of this is just touch footy. It's T20 cricket. No substance, no backbone. Having said that, if Seibold used his brain and at the least backed up this silliness by focusing on our defence, maybe we could actually pull this off. But no, not only do we have superficial attack, we have paper thin defence...the Manly Way

Yes and it was equally as frustrating. I recall so many games where we'd basically monster the opposition in the first 20 minutes, have 70% possession and all the 'tackled inside opposition 20' only to be up by 6. Then the bench would come on and replace AFB and Taupau and the opposition would start turning the screws and we'd end up losing. If our backs and attack had been better during that period, we'd have won a comp. I think a big part of the problem at that time was the lack of a foil for DCE.

 

[Pete W]

Yes and it was equally as frustrating. I recall so many games where we'd basically monster the opposition in the first 20 minutes, have 70% possession and all the 'tackled inside opposition 20' only to be up by 6. Then the bench would come on and replace AFB and Taupau and the opposition would start turning the screws and we'd end up losing. If our backs and attack had been better during that period, we'd have won a comp. I think a big part of the problem at that time was the lack of a foil for DCE.

Personally, I was bloody proud of our performances that year. There was grit and character, despite our roster being quite poor in terms of depth. Yet we overachieved, and not in that 2021 way. No one gave us a hope of making the 8 at the start. Yet, by season's end, for a moment, I thought the Manly of old was coming back.

 

[Will on the hill]

When dissecting games, it's easy to blame individuals and/or moments but unless a game is two sides competing hard against each other and a pivotal mistake happens at the death, it is rarely ever down to a moment.

Personally, when I watch Manly, I see a side consistently beaten at the ruck most weeks. It's a big reason why the edge defence is exposed. At no point today did we look on top of Penrith. Even when we scored those tries down the edge and were winning 12-4, it still felt like Penrith were running harder and tackling harder. I was not surprised when they went to halftime in front.

A game is 17 on 17; that's 34 variables. Nine times out of ten, a game will be won by the team that 'on average' wins contact, either in defence or with the ball. Our side do not win the little contests enough across the 17 players. Most of the contact today was won by Penrith and we lost the game. It's not Garrick or Ben T. It's the team.

Every year, the two teams that make the GF are usually the two teams who 'on average' win the contact more than their opposition. Now, that might seem obvious and pointless, but I don't blame individuals for our position in the middle of the table. We do not have the pack and power outside backs to challenge quality opposition when they decide to turn up, like Penrith did today. Wins against the likes of Melbourne at Brooky, happen because we turn up and give 100% and the opposition are slightly off the boil.

Great thread LC. Starting a thread about actual footy that gains traction after a loss is no mean feat.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Personally, I was bloody proud of our performances that year. There was grit and character, despite our roster being quite poor in terms of depth. Yet we overachieved, and not in that 2021 way. No one gave us a hope of making the 8 at the start. Yet, by season's end, for a moment, I thought the Manly of old was coming back.

Yeah I’m going back into the Barrett era as well. We had that same awesome middle rotation in 2018 and came up with nothing.

I agree, in fact, I preferred what we did in 2019 to 2021. The side was stronger and injuries were the only thing that held us back. Whereas, 2021, we scored some big wins against the minnows and struggled to compete physically against the quality sides that year.

 

[ABTK]

I think we are the ONLY attacking team who actually stands up and takes 2 steps back to help the defensive marker be onside....I'm not saying exploit the rule like most clubs do (in fact I am)....but we are soft in the ruck area right down to where we play the ball and get bullied by the attacker where "wants" to play it.....no wonder other teams have so much fun from dummy half against us and the edges become messy.
Maybe a specialist dummy half may help a little in this area also ?

Thanks for pointing this one out @maxta , it annoys the crap out of me when players walk a couple of metres off the mark and the marker (still in place where the play the ball should be) gets penalised.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

We do not have the pack and power outside backs to challenge quality opposition when they decide to turn up

Manly's backs are pretty good, main weakness is probably that Turbo misses so many games.

As for the pack, I agree. How does this 2024 pack stack up against our 2011 or 2008 packs? Not as good, that's how! Not to mention Manly's premiership winning packs from the past, or the packs of all recent premiers.
I think you mentioned (or probably many have) that a better dummy half could make our current forwards far more effective, and I agree with that. Last time we had a threatening dummy half was 2019. Also need to find another top backrower somewhere.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Manly's backs are pretty good, main weakness is probably that Turbo misses so many games.

As for the pack, I agree. How does this 2024 pack stack up against our 2011 or 2008 packs? Not as good, that's how! Not to mention Manly's premiership winning packs from the past, or the packs of all recent premiers.
I think you mentioned (or probably many have) that a better dummy half could make our current forwards far more effective, and I agree with that. Last time we had a threatening dummy half was 2019. Also need to find another top backrower somewhere.

Yeah I think Talau and Garrick are doing a decent job with the yardage carry. Still not sold on Saab (he has improved) and Koula out of yardage. They make a few good runs but just as many ineffective 3-5m gains with the slow play-the-ball. We’re not the worst at it but I think our backs are better at the finesse and the speed than the ugly carry.