the grind, the forwards, the halfback

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jbb/james

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so we can beat a top 4 side, is that maybe a top 8 side now

Footy in the 20 twenties is a different beast where posession and momentum gained off the back is KING. The ability to wear teams down or Grind them out of a contest is just part of the game that we dont seem to grasp unless its inflicted on us

Against the broncos on friday , against the storm and the rabbits in last seasons finals the inevitable early possesion ran with the bad guys. As a result they put points on us. Not a stack of points in this new game put enough to exert scoreboard pressure on our game after 20 minutes

In all 3 of those games when we got ball, we have the game to worry teams. Our forwards steadied and got us back into the grind to create opportunity for manly to re enter the game , reverse posession, field position and eventually the scored board. We did the opposite and went chooky boy

On all of those occasions our most experienced player sacrificed those opportunities instantly due to poor game awareness. Our forwards were gassed and are not going to dominate weekly, our posession rates will be good and bad early in games and our defence has shown they can keep us within striking distance if we are patient. Our forwards have shown that even if dominated early they will fight back if given ball and a defensive break and our backs have points in them i think

The grind is about forwards, game management, patience , kicking and decision making, not just forwards bending the line , Some people blame the pigs, some the halfback when essentially they dont operate without eachother. Its no longer the seventies with pigskin balls and muddy fields, kicking well is an absolute must. Just look at what teams have done to saab and where he is as a result. The reason i am harsher on the halfback is because he always flinches first , making poor decisions which lack game awareness in search of quick points, which looks soul crushing for the big guys considering what they have absorbed .

Having jake in the middle restricts forward minutes as he is not a runner like yeo, or speedy like murray, just stop gap but this also pushes our little guys wider but The little speedy dudes generally offer quick play the balls as the dont lumber into the defensive line to be gang tackled , rather are caught by one defender around the legs as the push between defenders, and submit. Playing off this causes momentum as the opposition is retreating setting your team up for a good set and field position . We dont do this much

The forwards need better play the balls more than anything i see, Better posession rates, and a better game manager before we can really judge there output because they are being let down in the 80 minute contest by a halfback that only has scoring points on his mind

What people dont want to accept is when AFB and marty were the best one two in the game, the same issues were evident

The forwards have roles and while DCE is a terrific player many of the game roles that fall under a halfbacks remit is what we fail in the most. IMO he gets a free ride on avoiding these roles on ST

this is about forum conversation, not a speech. Its my opinion looking to get other posters with other ideas to add them. we are all manly fans, what am i missing because a core group seem to think im way off the mark. maybe i am but pleas use current manly related stuff, not origin selection or MOM in 2013.
 
Three areas have to be the priority:
1. Line speed in defence - ours is woeful.
2. Tackle technique - we need to learn how to (legally) slow the ruck down.
3. Bodies in motion in attack - it puts the defenders under pressure and creates many more opportunities. Everyone should be pushing up in anticipation.
 
Ranga I echo ur thoughts 100%
It’s a simple game and the better teams do ut 1-3 the best, non stop and aggressively taking time away from the opposition.
Only other thing I think worth noting is our flat backline , which is negated when they r up and in on DCE ,, if they were deeper with bodies in motion their would b so many more options
 
Fair dinkum .. that is your longest version of .. "I don't like Cherry" .. yet.
Sounds like a challenge

I am actually sticking up for the forwards . We could sack the lot of them and add 6 more and would probably get the same, this forward pack would go close to winning a comp at melb or riff. Maybe not keppie but davey , jake , paseka , marty, oku , ailoi are good players, who apparently were top 4 material last season, this season Powder puffs

Difference, tom filled in the gaps, big big gaps, many of them as playmaker
 
Three areas have to be the priority:
1. Line speed in defence - ours is woeful.
2. Tackle technique - we need to learn how to (legally) slow the ruck down.
3. Bodies in motion in attack - it puts the defenders under pressure and creates many more opportunities. Everyone should be pushing up in anticipation.
I agree about technique, jake and frog do a lions share of defence and there hit em hardm hit em low costs us as the same latitude is not given to slow the ruck

In my above post i mention small quick bodies around the ruck to enhance our ability to play quick. Having a decoy and foz and chez sniffing around jake to offer this seems a no brainer,
 
Three areas have to be the priority:
1. Line speed in defence - ours is woeful.
2. Tackle technique - we need to learn how to (legally) slow the ruck down.
3. Bodies in motion in attack - it puts the defenders under pressure and creates many more opportunities. Everyone should be pushing up in anticipation.
Agree completely
And this is where @jbb/james is right regarding DCE.
Too many times he goes for the glory play, kicking early in tackle counts etc gifting possession to the opposition, which in turn exposes us to repeated 6 agains and huge momentum shifts
We have nothing left in the tank to put the bodies in motion by the time we do get some decent ball at the right end of the field
 
Agree completely
And this is where @jbb/james is right regarding DCE.
Too many times he goes for the glory play, kicking early in tackle counts etc gifting possession to the opposition, which in turn exposes us to repeated 6 agains and huge momentum shifts
We have nothing left in the tank to put the bodies in motion by the time we do get some decent ball at the right end of the field
I agree on the DCE glory play comments but I am not convinced about the 'nothing in the tank' line of thinking. For whatever reason, we just lack resilience in defence irrespective of whether it is early or late in a half. The good teams are able to defend 3 or 4 consecutive sets, we struggle defending 2 sets. It has to be mental and I am not sure how this is addressed.
 
I agree on the DCE glory play comments but I am not convinced about the 'nothing in the tank' line of thinking. For whatever reason, we just lack resilience in defence irrespective of whether it is early or late in a half. The good teams are able to defend 3 or 4 consecutive sets, we struggle defending 2 sets. It has to be mental and I am not sure how this is addressed.
My view on this is practice

In order to set your bar higher you need to test yourself under match conditions .the experience gained in these situations set your new standard. Its incremental . Playing touch footy all season and expecting to plays finals footy in the finals is hopeful

The better teams play the game they need to be successful all day , all season. We think being invited to the big dance , and dusting off the apricot cummerbund , is enough.

You have to lose one to win one is tried and true, for the lessons learned . For the finals experience of last season we dont look any smarter
 
I agree on the DCE glory play comments but I am not convinced about the 'nothing in the tank' line of thinking. For whatever reason, we just lack resilience in defence irrespective of whether it is early or late in a half. The good teams are able to defend 3 or 4 consecutive sets, we struggle defending 2 sets. It has to be mental and I am not sure how this is addressed.
I think it's a mix of both, pre 6 again rule you would be 100% correct, these days a couple of penalties and 6 agains screw you for the next immediate set you have then again later in the game as fatigue sets with attack in mind.
Certainly hasnt look like we were right mentally over the last few weeks though, I will give you that.
 
Three areas have to be the priority:
1. Line speed in defence - ours is woeful.
2. Tackle technique - we need to learn how to (legally) slow the ruck down.
3. Bodies in motion in attack - it puts the defenders under pressure and creates many more opportunities. Everyone should be pushing up in anticipation.
Add another - fighting for every inch in the ruck when in possession. People complain we don't get many 6 agains, that's because we don't play the game. Hump the ground hard when tackled, fake wrestle and pretend you are being held down, "accidently" get tangled up with the tacklers, don't listen to the held call and keep fighting forward to pull the second effort tackle, walk off the mark as you are playing it to isolate markers, try anything to convince the ref you are being inconvenienced. Watch Melbourne, they are the masters at milking a 6 again from the refs. We meekly surrender and some of our players have play the ball speeds that are measured in minutes not seconds
 
Add another - fighting for every inch in the ruck when in possession. People complain we don't get many 6 agains, that's because we don't play the game. Hump the ground hard when tackled, fake wrestle and pretend you are being held down, "accidently" get tangled up with the tacklers, don't listen to the held call and keep fighting forward to pull the second effort tackle, walk off the mark as you are playing it to isolate markers, try anything to convince the ref you are being inconvenienced. Watch Melbourne, they are the masters at milking a 6 again from the refs. We meekly surrender and some of our players have play the ball speeds that are measured in minutes not seconds
That's what it takes to win the comp - push the boundaries as far as possible in every facet of the game.
 
I'm not sure why I think this and I have nothing to back it up, but I reckon our defence has improved slightly this year. The attack, on the other hand, has been completely woeful. Wrong options, wrong times - which is definitely on Cherry - and absolutely no shape or movement off the ball.
 
so we can beat a top 4 side, is that maybe a top 8 side now

Footy in the 20 twenties is a different beast where posession and momentum gained off the back is KING. The ability to wear teams down or Grind them out of a contest is just part of the game that we dont seem to grasp unless its inflicted on us

Against the broncos on friday , against the storm and the rabbits in last seasons finals the inevitable early possesion ran with the bad guys. As a result they put points on us. Not a stack of points in this new game put enough to exert scoreboard pressure on our game after 20 minutes

In all 3 of those games when we got ball, we have the game to worry teams. Our forwards steadied and got us back into the grind to create opportunity for manly to re enter the game , reverse posession, field position and eventually the scored board. We did the opposite and went chooky boy

On all of those occasions our most experienced player sacrificed those opportunities instantly due to poor game awareness. Our forwards were gassed and are not going to dominate weekly, our posession rates will be good and bad early in games and our defence has shown they can keep us within striking distance if we are patient. Our forwards have shown that even if dominated early they will fight back if given ball and a defensive break and our backs have points in them i think

The grind is about forwards, game management, patience , kicking and decision making, not just forwards bending the line , Some people blame the pigs, some the halfback when essentially they dont operate without eachother. Its no longer the seventies with pigskin balls and muddy fields, kicking well is an absolute must. Just look at what teams have done to saab and where he is as a result. The reason i am harsher on the halfback is because he always flinches first , making poor decisions which lack game awareness in search of quick points, which looks soul crushing for the big guys considering what they have absorbed .

Having jake in the middle restricts forward minutes as he is not a runner like yeo, or speedy like murray, just stop gap but this also pushes our little guys wider but The little speedy dudes generally offer quick play the balls as the dont lumber into the defensive line to be gang tackled , rather are caught by one defender around the legs as the push between defenders, and submit. Playing off this causes momentum as the opposition is retreating setting your team up for a good set and field position . We dont do this much

The forwards need better play the balls more than anything i see, Better posession rates, and a better game manager before we can really judge there output because they are being let down in the 80 minute contest by a halfback that only has scoring points on his mind

What people dont want to accept is when AFB and marty were the best one two in the game, the same issues were evident

The forwards have roles and while DCE is a terrific player many of the game roles that fall under a halfbacks remit is what we fail in the most. IMO he gets a free ride on avoiding these roles on ST

this is about forum conversation, not a speech. Its my opinion looking to get other posters with other ideas to add them. we are all manly fans, what am i missing because a core group seem to think im way off the mark. maybe i am but pleas use current manly related stuff, not origin selection or MOM in 2013.
Re DCE, I think an organizing quality number 7 is much more important than a DCE instinctive style player in 2022.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Cowboys with Townsend and Broncos with Reynolds have totally turned around their fortunes this year.

NRL success at the moment seems to be line speed plus a quality player to steer you around the field on attack. It all comes down to putting pressure on the opposition for 80 minutes. Obviously the template for this is Penrith with their brilliant number 7 and a ferocious team of hungry players.
 
OK, now lets explain this in easy terms for all the people down the back to understand......Now the forwards are like the engine on a steam train and the backs are like the carraiges, Now we need the Engine to get up a full head of steam to pull all those carraiges, if it doesn't the train goes NOWHERE..!!!
 

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OK, now lets explain this in easy terms for all the people down the back to understand......Now the forwards are like the engine on a steam train and the backs are like the carraiges, Now we need the Engine to get up a full head of steam to pull all those carraiges, if it doesn't the train goes NOWHERE..!!!
But what happens if the engine does its job and is trying really, really hard to pull the carriages up a steep, steep hill, and the driver makes a mistake and releases the pressure the engine has worked so hard to build up? Bingo! The carriages - and the driver and the engine - find themselves back at the bottom of the hill.
 
I enjoyed reading your analysis @jbb/james . It is appears you have good natural insight. All I would add to this is intensity and desire. I think we have a lot of technical ability it’s just that when we lack these key elements it kills the playmakers mojo so to speak amongst other obvious things. Positive emotion and intensity are contagious and so is the opposite. Just think of the atmosphere at a great rock concert when everyone is in unison. That atmosphere is required to make it all happen when we are in the grind. Against the broncos we played with little intensity and desire. We could not recover when things went against us we were smothered and gassed.
 
Team P W L PD Pts
7 6 1 54 14
6 5 1 59 12
6 4 2 53 10
6 4 2 30 10
7 4 2 25 9
8 4 4 73 8
7 4 3 40 8
7 4 3 24 8
7 3 4 17 8
7 4 3 -8 8
8 4 4 -60 8
8 3 4 17 7
6 2 4 -31 6
7 3 4 -41 6
7 2 5 -29 4
7 1 6 -87 4
7 1 6 -136 4
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