The great expansion conundrum....

[Harmless27]

I will admit I haven't spent as much time thinking about this one as many others on here - but it hit home with the whole Humphries/Souths debate:

We are living in a Rugby League world of Salary Caps and Expansion. It generally means that teams can only afford to keep so many players on their books, and leads to good young talent switching clubs to get an opportunity or get paid more etc (which is totally fine)

There was always an argument that expansion = a dilution of quality, as there are more NRL spots available for less talented players etc.

Do we all think that has been the case with The Dolphins? Has the overall quality of players been diluted by ~4% in line with the expansion of playing spots on the rosters? Having the Dolphins in the comp means 3 or 4 or 5 more playmaker roles have been filled, which means the next layer of talent has a few more spots to move to - surely we have to tolerate that SOME Manly talent will fill vacancies in the Rubicks cube that is the NRL?

I personally believe that more teams = more competition = more improvement.

Clubs that have a poor culture (I am thinking about Wests) aren't going to improve whether we have 14 teams or 24 teams....

Anyways - I am rambling.

My summary - more opportunities = more player movements in future. Celebrate the ones who decide to stay and be patient and be loyal (Turbos, DCE etc) don't hate on the youngsters that seek an opportunity.

As we know - one day, they may yet return!

 

[Heckenberg]

I will admit I haven't spent as much time thinking about this one as many others on here - but it hit home with the whole Humphries/Souths debate:

We are living in a Rugby League world of Salary Caps and Expansion. It generally means that teams can only afford to keep so many players on their books, and leads to good young talent switching clubs to get an opportunity or get paid more etc (which is totally fine)

There was always an argument that expansion = a dilution of quality, as there are more NRL spots available for less talented players etc.

Do we all think that has been the case with The Dolphins? Has the overall quality of players been diluted by ~4% in line with the expansion of playing spots on the rosters? Having the Dolphins in the comp means 3 or 4 or 5 more playmaker roles have been filled, which means the next layer of talent has a few more spots to move to - surely we have to tolerate that SOME Manly talent will fill vacancies in the Rubicks cube that is the NRL?

I personally believe that more teams = more competition = more improvement.

Clubs that have a poor culture (I am thinking about Wests) aren't going to improve whether we have 14 teams or 24 teams....

Anyways - I am rambling.

My summary - more opportunities = more player movements in future. Celebrate the ones who decide to stay and be patient and be loyal (Turbos, DCE etc) don't hate on the youngsters that seek an opportunity.

As we know - one day, they may yet return!

I think that’s the crux of it all. Give them a culture they never want to leave and we will attract and keep the best talent.

 

[The '47ers]

Teams/players do need to be rewarded more for loyalty though.

 

[Ryan]

I will admit I haven't spent as much time thinking about this one as many others on here - but it hit home with the whole Humphries/Souths debate:

We are living in a Rugby League world of Salary Caps and Expansion. It generally means that teams can only afford to keep so many players on their books, and leads to good young talent switching clubs to get an opportunity or get paid more etc (which is totally fine)

There was always an argument that expansion = a dilution of quality, as there are more NRL spots available for less talented players etc.

Do we all think that has been the case with The Dolphins? Has the overall quality of players been diluted by ~4% in line with the expansion of playing spots on the rosters? Having the Dolphins in the comp means 3 or 4 or 5 more playmaker roles have been filled, which means the next layer of talent has a few more spots to move to - surely we have to tolerate that SOME Manly talent will fill vacancies in the Rubicks cube that is the NRL?

I personally believe that more teams = more competition = more improvement.

Clubs that have a poor culture (I am thinking about Wests) aren't going to improve whether we have 14 teams or 24 teams....

Anyways - I am rambling.

My summary - more opportunities = more player movements in future. Celebrate the ones who decide to stay and be patient and be loyal (Turbos, DCE etc) don't hate on the youngsters that seek an opportunity.

As we know - one day, they may yet return!

I actually do think it dilutes and levels out the talent pool mate. Look at this season. This next week, someone said we can jump to 5th, or drop to 9th.

The Panthers are the exception to the rule. They have lost and turned over so many players it's crazy. And I'm talking key, marquee players.

I do think though, there's a real problem with player turnover. Fans like to feel connected (else, I do). Back in the day, it was easy to get connected to Menzies, Lyon, Snake, Matai, King, Wolfie and others. Now, players are here one day, gone the next.

Personally, I don't feel connected to one solitary player on our team. It kind of leads to apathy. Maybe it's a generational thing? But being a football fan today, is very different to being a fan just 10 years ago (in my view). Players generally aren't loyal anymore to anything, but the dollar. It isn't about playing for a community, the fans, the jersey. It's not about tribalism. It's about money, commercialization and business.

Again, this is probably a generational thing.

But to summarise. I think the comings and goings definitely dilute the talent pool. The more pools, the more diluted. The effect being an evening out of the quality (teams wise), which means more player turnover. That in my view leads to more of a disconnect from fans.

Edit: If Perth are the next team. Let them be independent, and not The Bears. The Bears are North Sydney.

 

[Harmless27]

I 100% agree that there needs to be more of a reward/carrot to the clubs and players to reward Loyalty over time.

I ALSO believe that Sydney is a more expensive place than North Qld for example (or Melbourne - where I live) and we need to think about ways to accommodate players living in Sydney vs interstate more fairly

Like you @Ryan I do feel 'less connected' to some of the individuals in our team sometimes compared to years gone by.... I am thinking Aloioa for example....

Not sure if that is because I am getting older, or because the environment has changed. Would be interested to get a young persons view.... I am 41, so ergo I am old now. The players of my 'youth' were Lyons, menzies etc - and I LOVED them.

But also for the record - I do have an affinity with some of the current batch.... DCE, the Turbos, Tent, even young Hoppa.....

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I’d like to see 20 teams , 2 conferences , each team playing each team twice , once home , once away.

A mid season break for SOO, and possibly pacific tests , Country v City without affecting the NRL sides.

To me the 3 sides that should be added are very easy to pick.

**Perth ( the broadcasters will love the extra time slot ).

**Christchurch ( NZ needs more than the Warriors ).

**Central Queensland ( they are absolute rugby league nutters up there , probably based in Mackay ).

There will be heaps of pacifika players out there as well as PNG ( who miss out as far as I’m concerned due to the security issues of basing a team up there and playing home games ), and yes it might dilute the superstars in each team but it’ll create loads of opportunities for youngsters who will quickly develop.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I 100% agree that there needs to be more of a reward/carrot to the clubs and players to reward Loyalty over time.

I ALSO believe that Sydney is a more expensive place than North Qld for example (or Melbourne - where I live) and we need to think about ways to accommodate players living in Sydney vs interstate more fairly

Like you @Ryan I do feel 'less connected' to some of the individuals in our team sometimes compared to years gone by.... I am thinking Aloioa for example....

Not sure if that is because I am getting older, or because the environment has changed. Would be interested to get a young persons view.... I am 41, so ergo I am old now. The players of my 'youth' were Lyons, menzies etc - and I LOVED them.

But also for the record - I do have an affinity with some of the current batch.... DCE, the Turbos, Tent, even young Hoppa.....

The players of my youth ( around 30 years older than you ) were the Eadie’s , Reilly , Krillich and the greatest ever forward “ Igor “ , but I was then lucky to continue on to the Fatty , Crusher, Cliffy , Ridge era and then into the 90’s ( that exceptional period where we featured in three GF’s in a row ) the new favs Toovey , Menzies.

AND then that amazing decade of dominance , Snake , Skivvy , Killer and many more.

I think the major difference today is , apart from the obvious couple , is it’s all about the $$$$. Players will skip clubs in a heartbeat to get an extra $200k a year , there is little to no loyalty.

And consequently , why should I have any loyalty to them, it’s why ( as a good example ) the histrionics on here about the Fainu brothers leaving were ridiculous , as a club we couldn’t any more for them over their development BUT when it came down to it $2 million over 4 years compared to whatever we offered made it an easy choice.

None of this , “ I love the club , how about I take a low ball offer for two years and prove I’m a $500k player and then we can talk again “ , nah , just see yah and now I love another club ( yes of course you do until another one offers you $750k a year and then you’ll love them more ).

 

[The Who]

I’d like to see 20 teams , 2 conferences , each team playing each team twice , once home , once away.

A mid season break for SOO, and possibly pacific tests , Country v City without affecting the NRL sides.

To me the 3 sides that should be added are very easy to pick.

**Perth ( the broadcasters will love the extra time slot ).

**Christchurch ( NZ needs more than the Warriors ).

**Central Queensland ( they are absolute rugby league nutters up there , probably based in Mackay ).

There will be heaps of pacifika players out there as well as PNG ( who miss out as far as I’m concerned due to the security issues of basing a team up there and playing home games ), and yes it might dilute the superstars in each team but it’ll create loads of opportunities for youngsters who will quickly develop.

I agree with two conferences based on geography, but you can't play each team twice as it would mean 38 weeks before the finals.
Perhaps you meant you play each team twice within your conference: ie 18 matches. Then once per other conference (on a seasonal home and away rotation) = 9 matched. Total 27 weeks. Then the top four teams from each conference play in the finals series.
I'm doubtful about PNG because of the security risk, but perhaps the team could be expanded to include the Pacific nations. Call it Pacific & New Guinea. It could be based in Suva and play occasional matches in Port Morseby, Tonga and Samoa...

 

[Jay Eagle]

If the comp was 14 teams which in my opinion is the absolute MAX it should be then we would have a stronger, better and tougher competition.. a more ELITE Game and there would be some 120 less players who are really "reggies" players anyway.

Players like Weekes, Shaq Mitchell, Tuipulotu, Albert Hopoate, Maverick Geyer and Co wouldn't get a run and they are " decent" players.

Less teams less players and only the "actual" cream rise to the top.. so how can that not be a better league.
Each of the 14 teams would be stacked with a "real top 30 squad"

Seriously all this expansion crap is only diluting the competition.. where we could have a 14 team "super" league and then a serious "second division" and still run various "state based" comps, so it's not like these lesser talented players wouldn't have a place to play.

The way it should be if you want the best of the best competing.

So many players playing NRL that are seriously not NRL standard.. it's becoming a joke.

Go through every teams top 30 and mark the actual top tiered NRL standard players and you will hard up to fill 14 squads.

But in a world where everyone is a winner and everyone gets a trophy it's no wonder the sports also gone down this track of rewarding mediocrity.

 

[lsz]

Re the quality of player argument.

I think we are still seeing the impact of COVID and what that has done to take a couple of years away from player development - the argument is always the more "pathways" you have the more depth you build it just takes time

As for another team / teams it all comes down to the TV deal which is why I would think there will never be a conference or similar. With each team playing 24 games over 27 weeks of the year there is no way that number will reduce - if it could I would love a 20 team comp where you play every team once apart from a second "rival" game which would be the magic round meaning no team has to give up their home game

 

[DUFFMAN]

Perhaps you meant you play each team twice within your conference: ie 18 matches. Then once per other conference (on a seasonal home and away rotation) = 9 matched. Total 27 weeks. Then the top four teams from each conference play in the finals series.

The only thing I don't like about the top 4 teams from each conference playing in the finals is are you getting the best 8 teams playing, there is a chance the best 6 teams could be from 1 conference and the teams that would have come 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th are from the other if it was similar to now.

I would be happy to have 20 teams and play each other once playing each other team home one year and then away the following year and have a break during origin so teams aren't disadvantaged during origin.
Happy with a 14 team comp too and play home and away like the old days but cutting teams is going to cost a lot of fans and revenue.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I agree with two conferences based on geography, but you can't play each team twice as it would mean 38 weeks before the finals.
Perhaps you meant you play each team twice within your conference: ie 18 matches. Then once per other conference (on a seasonal home and away rotation) = 9 matched. Total 27 weeks. Then the top four teams from each conference play in the finals series.
I'm doubtful about PNG because of the security risk, but perhaps the team could be expanded to include the Pacific nations. Call it Pacific & New Guinea. It could be based in Suva and play occasional matches in Port Morseby, Tonga and Samoa...

Yes I meant play each team twice in the conference you are in.

And maybe we have a top 8 from each conference , playing like we do now in the finals ( so twice the games and played out over a longer period ) eventually ending with the winner of conference A ( minor premier ) , winner of conference B ( minor premier ) playing in the NRL Grand Final.

Also some how , the conferences change a bit each year , so maybe 4 sides from A go to B and vice versa. Probably important to keep the top 4 sides in place , but maybe sides 5-8 move each year or something like that.

Look it’s not well thought out , just an idea of reducing slightly the number of club games and not impacting players or clubs during the representive break.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Apparently the whole universe is expanding. And I certainly am. So get with the program

 

[Once Was Brissie Kid]

Bob Fulton always said there are plenty of players, but the problem is every team has 4 sitting on the interchange. In other words, in the current NRL that is 17 x 4 which is 68 players who could be the basis for 2 or more new teams. Get rid of the four replacements and go back to 13 players.

 

[Fibro Eagle]

It's what is professional sport now
Money money money
Tv Ratings
More teams more games more advertising more money
Players will go to other clubs for more money , The John Dorahy ,les Boyd . Ray Brown all came to Manly for money way before it became full professional
I support the club, the colours , the emblem , Player's will come and go
Manly is my team
Yes you have favourite players along the way
Expansion is already happening
We nearly lost Manly once and hope it never happens again
We can't change what the powers to be want
We can just support our team and hope they don't change that .

 

[ManlyTragic]

I don’t think we should be preaching about loyalty. As Ken Arthurson said every player has a price. dorahy Boyd brown didn’t show a lot of loyalty to Wests… human nature hasn’t changed much since then.

Out of interest how many players have stuck with the same club their whole career?

Just sayin’

 

[double hoops]

I actually do think it dilutes and levels out the talent pool mate. Look at this season. This next week, someone said we can jump to 5th, or drop to 9th.

The Panthers are the exception to the rule. They have lost and turned over so many players it's crazy. And I'm talking key, marquee players.

I do think though, there's a real problem with player turnover. Fans like to feel connected (else, I do). Back in the day, it was easy to get connected to Menzies, Lyon, Snake, Matai, King, Wolfie and others. Now, players are here one day, gone the next.

Personally, I don't feel connected to one solitary player on our team. It kind of leads to apathy. Maybe it's a generational thing? But being a football fan today, is very different to being a fan just 10 years ago (in my view). Players generally aren't loyal anymore to anything, but the dollar. It isn't about playing for a community, the fans, the jersey. It's not about tribalism. It's about money, commercialization and business.

Again, this is probably a generational thing.

But to summarise. I think the comings and goings definitely dilute the talent pool. The more pools, the more diluted. The effect being an evening out of the quality (teams wise), which means more player turnover. That in my view leads to more of a disconnect from fans.

Edit: If Perth are the next team. Let them be independent, and not The Bears. The Bears are North Sydney.

I was wondering if you were getting excited about the Perth Bears. I'm a little surprised it's a big no to Perth.

May be your just a Sea Eagle now @Ryan.

 

[Lyonstomenzies]

Personally, I don't feel connected to one solitary player on our team.

How could anyone not feel connected and love for the NSW BLUES captain Jake. He bleeds Manly.

I actually heard from a reliable source, that Jake sleeps in a bed with a Sea Eagles doona cover and has Manly posters on his wall of Cliffy and Jughead Jones.

 

[Frogz]

NRL Expansion: Papua New Guinea’s successful bid set for formal announcement​

Papua New Guinea will finally and formally be announced as the venue to host an NRL club. See the timeline for the new team to join the competition here.
Dean Ritchie
Follow

@BulldogRitchie

3 min read
July 18, 2024 - 11:51AM
News Sport Network
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s.../d557de24a40aeb05f5660a0f92b210e3#share-tools

​

NRL​

In a historic decision, Papua New Guinea will finally and formally be announced as the venue to host an NRL club after Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and PNG counterpart James Marape intensified negotiations about rugby league expansion in recent weeks.
Multiple PNG ministers were briefed about the successful NRL bid in Brisbane on Wednesday night before State of Origin III.
This masthead also understands Australia’s Deputy PM Richard Marles and Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong, along with six other ministers, heavily discussed a Papua New Guinea NRL side during a PNG-Australia ministerial forum in Port Moresby last month.
Papua New Guinea bid chairman Wapu Sonk and chief executive Andrew Hill have revealed what has been mooted for two years – PNG will be granted entry in the NRL in what will be a milestone and landmark moment for rugby league.
And is an astonishing admission, Sonk predicted the PNG team could attract up to one million members.

A new PNG team would bring millions of fresh fans to the NRL. Picture: Getty Images
PNG will target entry for the 2028 season but insist the country would be ready for 2027. That decision will be made by the NRL.
“It’s imminent. We are tying up the loose ends now to formalise it. It’s getting near, it’s becoming a reality,” said Sonk, who is also managing director of Kumul Petroleum. “There is corporate support and infrastructure.
“As we enter the final stages we will commence more formal discussions with the corporate sponsors.
“There have been several meetings between the Australian and PNG Governments and the NRL. We won’t be like other NRL clubs in Australia, who have their own regions. We are a country with a population of more than ten million people. Companies are queuing up to support the bid and team.
“At a minimum, we could get a million members. We will break every criteria the NRL uses, it’s crazy. Everything will be five, ten-fold. The NRL will realise it will be a very good investment.”

The Minister for International Development and the Pacific, Pat Conroy presents the Prime Minister of Papua New Guinea with a signed rugby league jersey. Picture: Martin Ollma
The Federal Government and NRL have all but completed a deal which could be worth $600m in federal funding over ten years.
Subject to any last-minute issues, a decision will be officially announced after final approval is secured from the Federal cabinets, and treasury, from both countries, probably next month.
One source close to the PNG bid said: “It’s not if, but when.”
Hill said the franchise’s official name, nickname, logo, colours, jersey design and team song were still being discussed and would be part of a community engagement strategy.
“We truly want to make this the people’s team of PNG,” Hill said.
The NRL’s 20-team plan is poised to include PNG, Perth Bears and possibly a second New Zealand side.
Either PNG or the Bears - but not both - could become an official expansion club by 2027. The other bid may have to wait a further two years.


“Rugby league in PNG is a national sport and has always dominated. There’s no doubt rugby league is the one thing that unifies PNG. It not only connects the villages, communities and people but also the corporates and businesses,” Hill said.
“Everyone wants to be part of rugby league and when we are in the NRL that will only increase ten-fold. We have been working and planning for a number of years now and have implemented a number of player pathways programs along with tremendous corporate support.”
Pressed on whether his bid team would be ready for NRL inclusion by 2027, Hill said: “Absolutely. We have a long history of playing in the Queensland Cup and we won the competition within the first ten years. We have teams coming and going to PNG every second week.”
The $600m will be injected into the PNG side and also community outreach programs.
Australia’s support of PNG is seen as a strategic foreign move to ward-off possible Chinese intrusion around the Pacific region.
The PNG Hunters were formed to play in the second-tier Queensland Cup during December, 2013.

 

[The '47ers]

NRL Expansion: Papua New Guinea’s successful bid set for formal announcement​

Papua New Guinea will finally and formally be announced as the venue to host an NRL club. See the timeline for the new team to join the competition here.
Dean Ritchie
Follow
@BulldogRitchie

3 min read
July 18, 2024 - 11:51AM
News Sport Network
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s.../d557de24a40aeb05f5660a0f92b210e3#share-tools

​

NRL​

In a historic decision, Papua New Guinea will finally and formally be announced as the venue to host an NRL club after Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and PNG counterpart James Marape intensified negotiations about rugby league expansion in recent weeks.
Multiple PNG ministers were briefed about the successful NRL bid in Brisbane on Wednesday night before State of Origin III.
This masthead also understands Australia’s Deputy PM Richard Marles and Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong, along with six other ministers, heavily discussed a Papua New Guinea NRL side during a PNG-Australia ministerial forum in Port Moresby last month.
Papua New Guinea bid chairman Wapu Sonk and chief executive Andrew Hill have revealed what has been mooted for two years – PNG will be granted entry in the NRL in what will be a milestone and landmark moment for rugby league.
And is an astonishing admission, Sonk predicted the PNG team could attract up to one million members.

A new PNG team would bring millions of fresh fans to the NRL. Picture: Getty Images
PNG will target entry for the 2028 season but insist the country would be ready for 2027. That decision will be made by the NRL.
“It’s imminent. We are tying up the loose ends now to formalise it. It’s getting near, it’s becoming a reality,” said Sonk, who is also managing director of Kumul Petroleum. “There is corporate support and infrastructure.
“As we enter the final stages we will commence more formal discussions with the corporate sponsors.
“There have been several meetings between the Australian and PNG Governments and the NRL. We won’t be like other NRL clubs in Australia, who have their own regions. We are a country with a population of more than ten million people. Companies are queuing up to support the bid and team.
“At a minimum, we could get a million members. We will break every criteria the NRL uses, it’s crazy. Everything will be five, ten-fold. The NRL will realise it will be a very good investment.”

The Minister for International Development and the Pacific, Pat Conroy presents the Prime Minister of Papua New Guinea with a signed rugby league jersey. Picture: Martin Ollma
The Federal Government and NRL have all but completed a deal which could be worth $600m in federal funding over ten years.
Subject to any last-minute issues, a decision will be officially announced after final approval is secured from the Federal cabinets, and treasury, from both countries, probably next month.
One source close to the PNG bid said: “It’s not if, but when.”
Hill said the franchise’s official name, nickname, logo, colours, jersey design and team song were still being discussed and would be part of a community engagement strategy.
“We truly want to make this the people’s team of PNG,” Hill said.
The NRL’s 20-team plan is poised to include PNG, Perth Bears and possibly a second New Zealand side.
Either PNG or the Bears - but not both - could become an official expansion club by 2027. The other bid may have to wait a further two years.


“Rugby league in PNG is a national sport and has always dominated. There’s no doubt rugby league is the one thing that unifies PNG. It not only connects the villages, communities and people but also the corporates and businesses,” Hill said.
“Everyone wants to be part of rugby league and when we are in the NRL that will only increase ten-fold. We have been working and planning for a number of years now and have implemented a number of player pathways programs along with tremendous corporate support.”
Pressed on whether his bid team would be ready for NRL inclusion by 2027, Hill said: “Absolutely. We have a long history of playing in the Queensland Cup and we won the competition within the first ten years. We have teams coming and going to PNG every second week.”
The $600m will be injected into the PNG side and also community outreach programs.
Australia’s support of PNG is seen as a strategic foreign move to ward-off possible Chinese intrusion around the Pacific region.
The PNG Hunters were formed to play in the second-tier Queensland Cup during December, 2013.

What could possibly go wrong 🤦🏻‍♂️