Risky NRL training cultures

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frank stokes

I discriminate indiscriminately
Here's another one

I saw Lloyd play and there is a body of evidence that his mind was NOT stronger than his body…

Having said that, denying ANYONE water during strenuous exercise is ridiculous in my own (unqualified) opinion… this may be a “pile-on claim” but that does not mean it is without merit…
 

Tragic Eagle

Tragic
Premium Member
Tipping Member
The clubs are responsible for the players health and safety during training. It is after all "a work place". I won't watch Anasta or Graham again after hearing them bang on last night about the incident at Canterbury. They suggested that it was different to a "work place" and in effect lost all objectivity. It is a work place, sure its different to other work places, but none the less the players are there under a contract of employment. If Canterbury punished that young man by making him wrestle more than 20 grown men one after the other then that conduct is clearly unreasonable and outside of the terms or implied terms of the contract of employment. These are not park football teams these are professional athletes employed by NRL clubs in a sport generating millions of dollars of revenue. The allegation by Llyod Perret about being denied water before suffering heat stroke raises real concerns if found to be true.
 
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frank stokes

I discriminate indiscriminately
The clubs are responsible for the players health and safety during training. It is after all "a work place". I won't watch Anasta or Graham again after hearing them bang on last night about the incident at Canterbury. They suggested that it was different to a "work place" and in effect lost all objectivity. It is a work place, sure its different to other work places, but none the less the players are there under a contract of employment. If Canterbury punished that young man by making him wrestle more than 20 grown men one after the other then that conduct is clearly unreasonable and outside of the terms or implied terms of the contract of employment. These are not park football teams these are professional athletes employed by NRL clubs in a sport generating millions of dollars of revenue. The allegation by Llyod Perret about being denied water before suffering heat stroke raises real concerns if found to be true.
Bit of a difference between suffering heatstroke and being “psychologically injured” after wrestling blokes for “a total of 4 minutes” I reckon…

you got your ego bruised, poor diddums… it has been reported that Braidan Burns copped the very same punishment a couple of weeks later and had no issue with it… NRL clubs can not set training standards to support the frailties of the softest players…
 

Tragic Eagle

Tragic
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I agree there is a big difference between the two incidents. However health (including mental health) and safety always loom large and remains a responsibility of the club. It turns on where the truth lies and whether a response was reasonable. Reasonableness is not measured by what is done at other clubs. First it was 8 blokes, then it was 30 blokes and now its only 4 minutes.

I get that this is a football team where players need to be hard and determined, but we became a very litigious society many years ago and employers need to protect themselves. In hindsight the Bulldogs would have been better served by dropping him to reserve grade but making him wrestle other members of the squad one after the other was a response that may well have financial consequences. I assume it was also done as general deterrence to the rest of the squad. IMO its was poor decision. What the game is coming too is by a large a product of the direction in which society is headed in general. I don't like it either but we are salmon swimming upstream against a very strong current.
 

lsz

First Grader
Staff member
Honestly you can see why this is going to happen more and more

If you are a fringe first grader who has dedicated their life to something that they may not get a pay check out of you can see the attraction. As for the clubs this is the way things need to be done much like all other work places have had to modernise.

I do not think it stops "punishments" as such but they would need to be far more transparent and have it written into player contracts etc.
 

Shoe1

Journey Man
Barrett / Cartwright coaching team that year. Who was the trainer? Ferris?

Lloyd had a memorable cameo off the bench in the flogging of parra that year. A player with good skills, pity he had such a setback.
 

Chunkytuna

Reserve Grader
Tipping Member
I agree there is a big difference between the two incidents. However health (including mental health) and safety always loom large and remains a responsibility of the club. It turns on where the truth lies and whether a response was reasonable. Reasonableness is not measured by what is done at other clubs. First it was 8 blokes, then it was 30 blokes and now its only 4 minutes.

I get that this is a football team where players need to be hard and determined, but we became a very litigious society many years ago and employers need to protect themselves. In hindsight the Bulldogs would have been better served by dropping him to reserve grade but making him wrestle other members of the squad one after the other was a response that may well have financial consequences. I assume it was also done as general deterrence to the rest of the squad. IMO its was poor decision. What the game is coming too is by a large a product of the direction in which society is headed in general. I don't like it either but we are salmon swimming upstream against a very strong current.
So what do we do? Just throw our hands up in the air and give up. From now on all clubs must treat their precious little babies like powder puffs - no hard work, no berating, no punishments for doing the wrong thing. Fair dinkum! What a joke. You wanna know where this mindset comes from? Take a look at schooling. It's no coincidence that these snowflakes who are now threatening and taking legal action are from a generation that saw ZERO discipline in their school years and probably didn't see much at home either. Ask any current teacher how that's working out in classrooms these days. Or better still take a look at our education standards on a world scale - CRAP. We're growing up with a generation who wants everything to fall into their laps and are by and large not prepared to put in hard work to achieve it. And if it doesn't work out, well let's blame someone else - it's not my fault. And you've got the ever present leaches known as the legal fraternity who are there to (as Lloyd Perret is quoted as saying) "dangle the legal option" in front of their eyes. It's totally fuked!
 

double hoops

First Grader
I can't understand how it would be beneficial to any athlete in hard summer training to deny water and break them down to the point of heat stroke and exhaustion. How is that building strength , surely its the opposite where you actually do damage to the body.
Yeah I don't get the no water part either.

It's not like they don't run water out on the field.
 

mosto

I have a well known member
Premium Member
I agree there is a big difference between the two incidents. However health (including mental health) and safety always loom large and remains a responsibility of the club. It turns on where the truth lies and whether a response was reasonable. Reasonableness is not measured by what is done at other clubs. First it was 8 blokes, then it was 30 blokes and now its only 4 minutes.

I get that this is a football team where players need to be hard and determined, but we became a very litigious society many years ago and employers need to protect themselves. In hindsight the Bulldogs would have been better served by dropping him to reserve grade but making him wrestle other members of the squad one after the other was a response that may well have financial consequences. I assume it was also done as general deterrence to the rest of the squad. IMO its was poor decision. What the game is coming too is by a large a product of the direction in which society is headed in general. I don't like it either but we are salmon swimming upstream against a very strong current.
Fair point, but I can see a scenario where dropping a player to reserve grade is considered 'humiliating and demeaning', if not based on form, opening the door for legal action. Particularly if they have a clause that triggers a bonus after x amount of first grade games, and they fall one short.

I really don't want to be a 'kids these days' kind of bloke, but unfortunately the first generation of the 'everyone gets trophy' are now young adults that are finding out life is not actually that fair. A lot of them are now parents of young kids and are bringing their kids up the same way. As a volunteer at a small junior footy club I see it it every weekend.

That said the denying of water during training or a game is not on. It's one thing trying to instill discipline a resilience (as I believe is the case with Topine), but intentionally compromising a players wellbeing is unacceptable.
 

Pete W

Bencher
How can we hold professional sport to the same standards as other workplaces? This is elite training, literally the pinnacle of human performance. The whole point is pushing the envelope.

(Special forces training is obviously another level above that - despite offering salaries a fraction of professional athletes. Imagine a fringe-cadet Commando suing the ADF for harsh training practices?)

These guys get paid a fortune to play footy! (Literally almost every kid's dream) If Topine, Perrett, and whoever else are successful, this will be the start of a slippery slope of declining standards (becoming quite noticeable across all areas of society I reckon).

Manly, like other clubs, have been around for decades and decades training thousands of top level players. Player welfare has always been paramount. There will always be unfortunate circumstances, accidents, etc. And, of course, we must continually evolve with current science-based evidence (e.g. re CTE). BUT we can't fool ourselves into thinking we can create a perfectly safe utopia - sh*t happens!
 

manly al

First Grader
Thought that player tracking monitors are being used on most training drills and for some time now and displaying individual player endurance or stress levels .
Hard to quantify the situation in Perret "s case , certainly recall the quite serious health issue at the time and guess that it will come down to whatever credible matters that did seem relevant at the time
Recall him playing some pretty fair footy from the bench for Manly but thought it was after the health scare incident , though not totally certain
Seemed to drop off in intensity the following season he left the club and did not seem to feature much at a higher level after that
Might have my timelines again not quite in order but just a basic reflection back
Maybe the Bulldog player has a case if it did seem out of proportion .
Just surprised the claim that it then adversely affected his playing ability after that .
 

Go manly

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I agree there is a big difference between the two incidents. However health (including mental health) and safety always loom large and remains a responsibility of the club. It turns on where the truth lies and whether a response was reasonable. Reasonableness is not measured by what is done at other clubs. First it was 8 blokes, then it was 30 blokes and now its only 4 minutes.

I get that this is a football team where players need to be hard and determined, but we became a very litigious society many years ago and employers need to protect themselves. In hindsight the Bulldogs would have been better served by dropping him to reserve grade but making him wrestle other members of the squad one after the other was a response that may well have financial consequences. I assume it was also done as general deterrence to the rest of the squad. IMO its was poor decision. What the game is coming too is by a large a product of the direction in which society is headed in general. I don't like it either but we are salmon swimming upstream against a very strong current.
We have been examining work place safety standards for some time and rightfully so

My past role for over 25 years has been managing work place health and safety

Rituals such as initiations with apprentices and newbies began as a playful and fun way to welcome new people to the organisations

Being asked to go and buy some “ red striped paint “ or a left handed hammer are just two examples of hundreds of the relatively harmless ways this began and seemed less like there was a victim who could be hurt

off course then came the amplification and the need to be more adventurous which crossed the border into possible hurt and humiliation

One does not have to look too far back in time to see the results of some of the enquires of past practices, rituals and initiation occurring in the navy , building and other institutions that it became out of hand

Remember the cane for wrong doing that turned into being struck on the back of the hand if really naughty
Having to hold out books with outstretched arms in front of the class or being told to stand out the front of class with your nose to the wall

Granted that many were not intended to harm and those taking part would be horrified if pranks went wrong

I will give you one more and that was the old trick of rubbing a hot chilli on someone’s coffe cup and seeing thier reaction as they took thier first sip

Everyone would know and watch the victim which normally got a laugh from all and every day there would be someone else

On one day the young bloke who drank from the chilli cup was dead less than 40 minutes later after it was learned he had an allergic reaction

That was my company and the first time I needed to investigate a work place fatality

I have since completed many and have not been involved in one that was not avoidable

Either by the employer not discharging thier duty of care to ensure a safe work place or employees to do thier best to understand and follow the safe practices that are in place to protect them and others

I have no detail of the two league incidents other to say it definitely is a work place with the same obligations in place for employers and employees

This is now further recognised in physiological injuries and will ensure our clubs invest heavily in culture & risk mitigation practices for the future
 

Pete W

Bencher
I don't think either case passes the pub test - wrestling 30 blokes, and pushing players to the limit without water both seem crazy. Writing them off as snowflakes is unreasonable.
There is always a very sensational and exaggerated way of telling one's story of suffering - often a little way away from objective reality. And what of the other hundreds of players experiencing the same tactics/treatment? All of a sudden, NRL clubs are into abuse that has somehow been hidden from everyone all these years?

Funny how Perrett comes out now. Managers and lawyers smell blood in the water after recent events, simple
 

frank stokes

I discriminate indiscriminately
I don't think either case passes the pub test - wrestling 30 blokes, and pushing players to the limit without water both seem crazy. Writing them off as snowflakes is unreasonable.
If it 4 minutes it is 4 minutes… I do not see how it matters whether it was against 1 or 40 blokes except you are obviously not going to get on top during the 4 minutes….

If it was a (considerably) longer period of time then the kid may have a point but I am happy to call the kid a snowflake if he is saying his life and career was ruined by a 4 minute wrestling session (as reported)… he was physically bettered in a wrestling contest, it is not like they bashed him…
 

Pete W

Bencher
We have been examining work place safety standards for some time and rightfully so

My past role for over 25 years has been managing work place health and safety

Rituals such as initiations with apprentices and newbies began as a playful and fun way to welcome new people to the organisations

Being asked to go and buy some “ red striped paint “ or a left handed hammer are just two examples of hundreds of the relatively harmless ways this began and seemed less like there was a victim who could be hurt

off course then came the amplification and the need to be more adventurous which crossed the border into possible hurt and humiliation

One does not have to look too far back in time to see the results of some of the enquires of past practices, rituals and initiation occurring in the navy , building and other institutions that it became out of hand

Remember the cane for wrong doing that turned into being struck on the back of the hand if really naughty
Having to hold out books with outstretched arms in front of the class or being told to stand out the front of class with your nose to the wall

Granted that many were not intended to harm and those taking part would be horrified if pranks went wrong

I will give you one more and that was the old trick of rubbing a hot chilli on someone’s coffe cup and seeing thier reaction as they took thier first sip

Everyone would know and watch the victim which normally got a laugh from all and every day there would be someone else

On one day the young bloke who drank from the chilli cup was dead less than 40 minutes later after it was learned he had an allergic reaction

That was my company and the first time I needed to investigate a work place fatality

I have since completed many and have not been involved in one that was not avoidable

Either by the employer not discharging thier duty of care to ensure a safe work place or employees to do thier best to understand and follow the safe practices that are in place to protect them and others

I have no detail of the two league incidents other to say it definitely is a work place with the same obligations in place for employers and employees

This is now further recognised in physiological injuries and will ensure our clubs invest heavily in culture & risk mitigation practices for the future
Fatalities are always avoidable in retrospect
 

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