Our much maligned 2nd row.

[Woodsie]

Specifically Siro and Frank .. could we have a better 2nd row .. absolutely ..Cordner and Hess for example. But they would cost 2 to 3 times as much and we would probably have to sell Jake or Tom to afford them.

Last year we had arguably the most inexperienced 2nd row in the NRL, Siro's first year in the forwards and Frank"s first year in the NRL ... for mine they were solid and gave the team much of our needed shape in both attack and defence .. and while neither hit hard like Matai ... neither missed too many either.

I believe their "apparent" lack of run metres, so often raised by their detractors, is more the result of the teams overall game pattern than any inherent lack of ability or conviction. This is borne out by the fact that we are still one of the leading team in overall meters gained. In Frank's case I also believe Green's fondness of cutting him out and having him run the decoy line contributes to his low yardage.

2018 will see both players more confident and in Siro's case more mature and ready to dominate. Whilst they may not be the best 2nd rowers around, I reckon there is only a handful of representative 2nd rowers better.

I don't think they are the weakness that many think they are.

PSS .. and I am always right, most of the time, statistically speaking ...

 

[Disco]

Siro's first year in the forwards

Sorry don't mean to be rude.....but what?

 

[court83]

Sirro went ok, frank usually didnt touch the ball until the game was 20 mins in... and its just not good enough.. when almost every game started with wingers and centres getting bashed trying to do all the hard yards to get the team on the front foot, and 100+ kg winterstein isnt taking a single hit up, its just not good enough

 

[Woodsie]

PSSS Also with Tanginoa, Siply, Gosieosko, Loopy lazy Lane, et al we have a bit of depth.

 

[Woodsie]

Sirro went ok, frank usually didnt touch the ball until the game was 20 mins in... and its just not good enough.. when almost every game started with wingers and centres getting bashed trying to do all the hard yards to get the team on the front foot, and 100+ kg winterstein isnt taking a single hit up, its just not good enough

welcome to the modern game ... that's the way wingers play in 2017

 

[Woodsie]

Sorry don't mean to be rude.....but what?

Played mostly at 5/8 with a few games at locke or 2nd row (not many) even played halfback at Tigers.

 

[madmax]

Sorry to disagree but what's so good about Hess & Cordner? Yeah good players but to insinuate they're way better than Sirro & Winter is a bit rich! More than happy with both of them & personally think they'll both kill it this year! Don't forget Sirro was out injured for 10 weeks & funny how it coincided with the teams form slump!! Just my opinion........

 

[court83]

welcome to the modern game ... that's the way wingers play in 2017

wingers take hit ups and do the work to HELP out the big boys, not supposed to do it all for them...

 

[brad]

We need another hard running ball playing back rower .

 

[Woodsie]

Sorry to disagree but what's so good about Hess & Cordner? Yeah good players but to insinuate they're way better than Sirro & Winter is a bit rich! More than happy with both of them & personally think they'll both kill it this year! Don't forget Sirro was out injured for 10 weeks & funny how it coincided with the teams form slump!! Just my opinion........

Just threw Cordner and Hess up as examples ... both rep players ... my point was that when people suggest replacing them it is most often a player on about 3 times the coin Frank is on.

 

[Woodsie]

wingers take hit ups and do the work to HELP out the big boys, not supposed to do it all for them...

Sorry mate ... get out of the 70's ... it is now part of the game plan and structure that wingers take the 2nd and more often than not the 3rd hit up from kick returns ... and here is a shock for you .. often a centre will take the 4th..

 

[ricardo]

I’m ok with our second rowers being 80 minute tackling machines

 

[Disco]

Played mostly at 5/8 with a few games at locke or 2nd row (not many) even played halfback at Tigers.

Sorry again but that is incorrect

Sirro did indeed debut as a 5/8 in 2012 and played in the halves including at half back till midway to 2013.

In Round 23 he moved to the Second Row. From then till he joined us he played the following

36 games as a second rower
4 off the bench
2 at 5/8
1 at Lock

He may have started out in the halves back in 12/13 but we signed him as an established forward

Below for reference

http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/matches/Custom/MTMtMTYyOS00LS0tLS0tMTk3ODItLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

 

[StuBoot]

Sirro went ok, frank usually didnt touch the ball until the game was 20 mins in... and its just not good enough.. when almost every game started with wingers and centres getting bashed trying to do all the hard yards to get the team on the front foot, and 100+ kg winterstein isnt taking a single hit up, its just not good enough

Ahh, I think that's the gameplan that Woodsie was alluding to.
It seemed to me that Baz's main priority was for Sirro and Frank to look after DCE & Green defensively so they and the backs could do what they do best.
Jorge and Uate took hit ups 1 & 2 generally followed by Marty/BJ/AFB then we tried to play football, it seemed to work pretty good for most of the season.
Frank & Sirro's defensive stats were pretty impressive in regards to missed tackles, I'd like to see their numbers v other 2nd rowers in that column.
When Sirro was out for a lengthy spell our right edge wasn't the same defensively.

 

[Kevinward777]

Specifically Siro and Frank .. could we have a better 2nd row .. absolutely ..Cordner and Hess for example. But they would cost 2 to 3 times as much and we would probably have to sell Jake or Tom to afford them.

Last year we had arguably the most inexperienced 2nd row in the NRL, Siro's first year in the forwards and Frank"s first year in the NRL ... for mine they were solid and gave the team much of our needed shape in both attack and defence .. and while neither hit hard like Matai ... neither missed too many either.

I believe their "apparent" lack of run metres, so often raised by their detractors, is more the result of the teams overall game pattern than any inherent lack of ability or conviction. This is borne out by the fact that we are still one of the leading team in overall meters gained. In Frank's case I also believe Green's fondness of cutting him out and having him run the decoy line contributes to his low yardage.

2018 will see both players more confident and in Siro's case more mature and ready to dominate. Whilst they may not be the best 2nd rowers around, I reckon there is only a handful of representative 2nd rowers better.

I don't think they are the weakness that many think they are.

PSS .. and I am always right, most of the time, statistically speaking ...

Spot on @Woodsie. I reckon both the boys are set for big years. Way too much noise being made about our inept back row, and our forward in general. I think the boys are going to make a fearsome group next season.

 

[Holmsey]

We can improve on frank but sirro was excellent and his combination with dce was awesome. Wouldnt swap sirro for any backrower loved his work in 2017.

 

[pjayz]

Specifically Siro and Frank .. could we have a better 2nd row .. absolutely ..Cordner and Hess for example. But they would cost 2 to 3 times as much and we would probably have to sell Jake or Tom to afford them.

Last year we had arguably the most inexperienced 2nd row in the NRL, Siro's first year in the forwards and Frank"s first year in the NRL ... for mine they were solid and gave the team much of our needed shape in both attack and defence .. and while neither hit hard like Matai ... neither missed too many either.

I believe their "apparent" lack of run metres, so often raised by their detractors, is more the result of the teams overall game pattern than any inherent lack of ability or conviction. This is borne out by the fact that we are still one of the leading team in overall meters gained. In Frank's case I also believe Green's fondness of cutting him out and having him run the decoy line contributes to his low yardage.

2018 will see both players more confident and in Siro's case more mature and ready to dominate. Whilst they may not be the best 2nd rowers around, I reckon there is only a handful of representative 2nd rowers better.

I don't think they are the weakness that many think they are.

PSS .. and I am always right, most of the time, statistically speaking ...

The question is whether their level of involvement is a result of the game plan, or the game plan is a result of their respective abilities, i.e. play to the strengths of the cattle - it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't looking for a more involved ball running back rower.

I liked the way Siro played this year and I can see further improvement in him as the team improves. I do think we need to strengthen our quality and depth in this area - hopefully young Gosslingowschkii will turn out to be a goodn'.

 

[Woodsie]

Sorry again but that is incorrect

Sirro did indeed debut as a 5/8 in 2012 and played in the halves including at half back till midway to 2013.

In Round 23 he moved to the Second Row. From then till he joined us he played the following

36 games as a second rower
4 off the bench
2 at 5/8
1 at Lock

He may have started out in the halves back in 12/13 but we signed him as an established forward

Below for reference

http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/matches/Custom/MTMtMTYyOS00LS0tLS0tMTk3ODItLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t

Thanks Disco, that is more info than I had ....

However, with only playing 8 games in 2016, he came to us as (I believe) a player lacking in confidence and unsure of his role. The simple game plan Baz used last year for our 2nd rowers I think helped him regain some stature and will improve further this year,

 

[Woodsie]

The question is whether their level of involvement is a result of the game plan, or the game plan is a result of their respective abilities, i.e. play to the strengths of the cattle - it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't looking for a more involved ball running back rower.

I liked the way Siro played this year and I can see further improvement in him as the team improves. I do think we need to strengthen our quality and depth in this area - hopefully young Gosslingowschkii will turn out to be a goodn'.

I think a bit of both ... Baz is on record in his coaching video advocating the use of powerful wingers to win the ruck battle early in the set and much of our pattern follows.

You are correct though .. you do play to your strengths ... and if we had a different type of aggressive 2nd rower subtle changes would be made ...

I think we will see an immediate difference this year with a new 5/8 .. will play on Frank's side and hopefully use him more than Green did.

 

[Moops]

Sorry to disagree but what's so good about Hess & Cordner? Yeah good players but to insinuate they're way better than Sirro & Winter is a bit rich! More than happy with both of them & personally think they'll both kill it this year! Don't forget Sirro was out injured for 10 weeks & funny how it coincided with the teams form slump!! Just my opinion........

Apart from a few one-eyed/deluded Manly supporters, I don't think there is an NRL fan alive that would take Sirro and Winterstein over Hess and Cordner. Don't be so silly! But I will ask around and get back to you.